[Samsonsmasher]

There is no possible scenario where Hitler would not have gone to war against the Allies or specifically avoided war with the Soviet Union but it was not inevitable that he would have lost although Hitler's ideology could not leave any possibility of surrendering to the Allies on any terms once war began. He saw everything in absolute terms - he had either to win or he would fight on to the bitter end and suicide.

The moment after which Hitler could not win was when Churchill became PM after a meeting between himself Lord Halifax who counselled peace and the King who was sympathetic. Had Churchill deferred to Halifax having failed to win support. Churchill was quite prepared to fight on believing America would intervene in Europe as they did in 1917 and was prepared to sacrifice the empire in the process. Halifax was prepared to make peace with Hitler in return for retaining British interests just as the defeated French had whose armies continued to garrison their far flung colonies after the fall of Paris in 1940.

Hitler sought to be the master of Europe in order that he could grab living space in Soviet Russia as far as the Urals. He was under no illusions that he would be at war with the United States but gambled that the Soviet Union would collapse before the end of 1941. He had to believe this of course because Nazi Germany faced an acute fuel crisis.

Hitler had to seize the Caucasus oil fields by 1941-42 or not only future military operations would jeopardized but the Reich economy itself. Hitler had to grab Moscow and the Caucasus the first year or the Soviets would be in a position to mobilize it's full resources to stop and roll back invasion which is in fact what happened.

The major speedbump was the British resistance in the Balkans and Greece in 1941 and the Mediterranean that threatened the southern flank of Hitler's Europe. Those vital months which saw a desperate hopeless rearguard by the British actually delayed and hampered Barbarossa.

Hitler's forward reconnaissance units could actually see the spires of Moscow's St Basil's cathedral through their field glasses before they were forced to retreat.

The Japanese hit many of the American battleships at Pearl Harbour but did not hit the carriers which were at sea. In any case once America mobilized they produced thousands of ships which overwhelmed the Japanese.
Hitler knew FDR favoured a Europe First war policy so with the Soviet victory in the Battle of Moscow he knew war was coming with the United States and was prepared to go down fighting.

[V8 Interceptor]

.

[Del.Monte]

Originally Posted by V8 Interceptor

.

Really enjoyed your post.

[V8 Interceptor]

Ah the man from Del Monte! Yes I thought I'd posted a reply but must've hit something. I'll try again.

Originally Posted by Samsonsmasher

There is no possible scenario where Hitler would not have gone to war against the Allies.

I'm not so sure about that Sir. The Fuhrer had no intention of fighting what became the western Allies. He was only looking east.

It was Prime Minister Churchill who wanted to fight no matter what.

[magicbastarder]

Isn't there an argument that if Hitler had not hated the Jews, he'd have had the Bomb first because multiple Jewish physicists wouldn't have fled?

[Del.Monte]

It's also an interesting probability that if Hitler had not started WW.II. the German rugby union team would be in the Six Nations competition now rather than Italy.

It's also a well established fact that God is an Englishman and so he was hardly going to let the Nazis win.

[Peregrinus]

Originally Posted by magicbastarder

Isn't there an argument that if Hitler had not hated the Jews, he'd have had the Bomb first because multiple Jewish physicists wouldn't have fled?

There's an argument, but I'm not sure how strong it is. Hitler wasn't terribly interested developing atomic weapons; the German programme started late and was seriously under-resourced because Hitler gave it a low priority. So even if European Jewish physicists had remained in Europe and were available to the support the programme, he might not have made use of them.

The bigger difference would have been on the other side; Teller, etc, would not have been available to the US atomic programme. But it would still probably have been a bigger, earlier and better-resourced programme than anything the Germans were doing.

[completedit]

Originally Posted by magicbastarder

Isn't there an argument that if Hitler had not hated the Jews, he'd have had the Bomb first because multiple Jewish physicists wouldn't have fled?

Also resources put into extermination camps rather than war effort. Can't remember exact link but follows your point. Every thing added up to eventual defeat.

[V8 Interceptor]

Originally Posted by completedit

Also resources put into extermination camps rather than war effort.

Do you hold any truck with David Irvine re the camps Sir?

[JJayoo]

They developed a jet powered plane and a missile that was capable of hitting the UK, if these had been developed at the beginning of the war, and not the end, they would have taken dominated any aerial fighting.

[Peregrinus]

Originally Posted by JJayoo

They developed a jet powered plane and a missile that was capable of hitting the UK, if these had been developed at the beginning of the war, and not the end, they would have taken dominated any aerial fighting.

Yeah, but conversely if the British had developed jet aircvraft earlier than they did, the war might have take a different and shorter course.

So what? These speculative alternative histories mean nothing. Unless there is evidence that the Nazis starved some potentially war-winning programme of resources in order to allocate them instead to anti-Jewish actions, you can't really say that the Nazis lost because of their antisemitism.

I think the best case you can make about this is the most conventional one. It has nothing to do with secret weapons or brilliant individual scientists. It's simply that, right from the get-go, the Nazis were diverting resources away from Operation Barbarossa; we have army generals, for example, complaining that their advance is being delayed because railway resources are being deployed for the transport of Jews, or because military units are being order to support the SS in anti-Jewish actions behind the front.

Whether this could have made the difference between defeat and victory is debateable. As it was, the Germans got to the outskirts of Moscow by the end of November 1941, but they could not take it before the winter set in and they had to retreat. If with extra resources they had got there a couple of weeks earlier, and if that had given them time to build up their forces and launch an attack before winter, and if that attack had been successful, the loss of Moscow might have been such a psychological blow to the Soviets that, e.g. Stalin might have overthrown in a Politburo coup and/or assassinated, and that might have changed the course of the war. But there's a awful lot of ifs and mights in there.

And I think that's the only case we know of where there was a direct trade-off between the needs of the German war effort and anti-Jewish actions. Hitler considered the anti-Jewish actions to be part of the war effort - he didn't think he could win the war without "solving the Jewish problem" - and therefore he was prepared to deliberately compromise conventional military efforts in order to undertake anti-Jewish actions. His army generals, to a man, disagreed, and therefore we know of the conflict and how it played out. But I think that's the only circumstance where we know of such a thing. The Germans might have made other errors in not developing atom bombs or jet aircraft, or in declaring war on the US when they didn't really have to, but those errors are not so obviously motivated by antisemitism.

[V8 Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Peregrinus

Hitler considered the anti-Jewish actions to be part of the war effort - he didn't think he could win the war without "solving the Jewish problem" - and therefore he was prepared to deliberately compromise conventional military efforts in order to undertake anti-Jewish actions.

Some say Hitler didn't even know all that much about the death camps and that Himmler orchestrated the entire scheme himself.

[Peregrinus]

Originally Posted by V8 Interceptor

Some say Hitler didn't even know all that much about the death camps and that Himmler orchestrated the entire scheme himself.

I am not among those who say that. I don't have a lot of time for those who do, to be honest. And, anyway, I don't see how it would be relevant in this context.

[JJayoo]

[quote="Peregrinus;115644118"]Yeah, but conversely if the British had developed jet aircvraft earlier than they did, the war might have take a different and shorter course.
]


But the nazis did develope jet Aircraft during the war, the British didn't I do t really see your point.

[Del2005]

[QUOTE=JJayoo;115645818]

Originally Posted by Peregrinus

Yeah, but conversely if the British had developed jet aircvraft earlier than they did, the war might have take a different and shorter course.
]


But the nazis did develope jet Aircraft during the war, the British didn't I do t really see your point.

The British did develop a jet during the war, look up Frank Whittle. It was a more complex design so wasn't flyable during the early war, they where used to hunt down V1s later on in the war.