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LL wants tenant to pay to resolve dampness

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    #32
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Am I missing something here?
    Why would a tennant pay to fix a property that's not theirs?

    I get that mold is not healthy. Who wants to live in a flat with that but you don't own it.


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    #33
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    a washer dryer is of course better but a horse is preferable any day of the week to hanging clothes on radiators

    Regardless "Where there is no access to a yard / garden, access to communal laundry facilities, such as a washing machine and a dryer, must be provided"

    The "must" is not optional.


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    #34
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    There is no way around this for the landlord they must pay for any upgrades.
    However tenants are usually the issue. I have had places never had damp issues but within a short time of new tenants have an issue. Every time it has been an issue it is the tenant drying clothes inside. Each property has a dryer but tenants say they are too expensive to run. They can never tell you the cost of running it. I have a plug adapter that tells the amount of power used to prove it isn't expensive.

    I have had to repaint due to this. Just have to suck it up. Once after repainting I called in and they were drying clothes on the radiator. They swore they didn't ever do this. So I held their deposit for the repaint. They of course argued and brought a case up. They didn't win but the hassle wasn't worth it


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    #35
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    STB. wrote: »
    No. The landlord is a chancer. Cold bridging, inadequate insulation and poor vents that haven't been serviced in a long time by the sound of things are the factors the landlord needs to address. It is his property.

    Landlords cannot be expected to provide a house with no cold bridging. They should clean vents and offer a dehumidifier.


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    #36
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Landlords cannot be expected to provide a house with no cold bridging. They should clean vents and offer a dehumidifier.

    There isn't adequate ventilation though..,.

    Dehumidifiers aren't the fix.


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    #37
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    My brother had an apartment rented a few years ago. First 3 years he had 2 different tenancies and not a problem.
    Then a couple moved in and the place got really damp and moldy. My brother thought there was a leak or something.
    He got a guy in to look at it who said vents were blocked up etc. Brother unblocked the vents but damp persisted.
    Eventually he decided to put new insulation inside and repaint.

    He asked the tenants would they move out to another place for a month.
    He moved them into my aunts house that we inherited and hadnt sold yet for the month.
    When he had the apartment ready he went to help them move their stuff back in.
    The aunts house was full of black mould everywhere. It was disgusting.

    Within a month of them moving back into the apartment there was mould everywhere again.
    After they moved out, he bleached the walls and repainted again. He had it rented to different tenants for another 5 years before he sold it, without any mould problems at all.

    When he asked an expert about this experience he was told that some peoples lifestyles are the cause of mould.
    When they moved house they brought the spores with them, but more importantly their lifestyle enable the conditions for the mould to thrive.
    When other people moved in, even though there were probably mould spores still there that he hadnt got to, their lifestyles did not allow the mould to thrive.

    Upshot was, open widnows regularly, dont block up vents, dont dry clothes on the rads and dont boil stuff for hours withouyt an extractor fan on, and close doors when cooking and showering.

    I myself would never live anywhere without my dehumidifier.
    Never ever had a mould problem and i just take it with me anywhere i move to.
    Leave it on low for a couple of hours in the morning.


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    #38
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Caranica wrote: »
    Doesn't meet minimum rental standards
    From a residents point of view you want to ensure water isnt entering the house. But most mould comes residents of a house. Not having vents does not meet minimum legal standards but it is far better to open a window then install a vent then to follow this standards. If I was such a tenant (I know there are many like this in Ireland) Id ask for a vent that isnt open 24/7 like a Lunos or something and if they refused, just make do with windows. Vents offer no benefit to the tenants comfort, health and energy bills.


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    #39
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,669 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Who installed the insulation which is there already?


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    #40
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭DubCount


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Am I missing something here?
    Why would a tennant pay to fix a property that's not theirs?

    I get that mold is not healthy. Who wants to live in a flat with that but you don't own it.

    Take a tenant moves who into an apartment and that apartment has a fully functioning washing machine supplied to the house by the LL. After a month the washing machine breaks down. A repair guy comes out, and says the machine was damaged by the tenant sitting on the door of the washing machine. It is not intentional damage, the LL owns the washing machine, but its the tenants liability because the actions of the tenant caused the damage.

    Just because this relates to the house itself (and not the fittings), does not change the principle. If the tenant is driving his/her car into a driveway and smashes into the front of the house, its not their property, but its their responsibility.

    If the damage (dampness/ mould/ wahsing machine) is just a matter of normal ware or something a tenant did not cause, then absolutely, the bill belongs to the LL. Even if its uncertain how something was damaged, then I would still say this is the Landlords cost to fix. Where the damage is caused by the tenant, then the tenant should pay - thats taking responsibility for your actions.


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    #41
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    A lot of it is Irish climate is perfect for mould growth and our building regulations are extremely weak.

    Anyone I know who’s moved here, other than from Britain which is similar, complains about encountering mouldy apartments or houses.

    Black mould spores are always in the air. You don’t “bring them with you”. If the the environment in the building is suitable, they’ll just grow. They’re part of the outdoor environment and break down dead material all the time.

    If a house goes totally mouldy when unoccupied there’s something seriously wrong with the construction - insulation & ventilation.

    The climate is also relatively benign compared to say Central Europe or most of North America, so heating systems are less likely to be always on and energy costs are very high too. If you take something like electric heating here the kWh cost is as high as it gets anywhere in the most expensive markets in the world, and it’s actually not made up here by tax imposed - we have just have extremely expensive electricity due to location and small size of market.

    So it all adds up to damp.


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    #42
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    A lot of it is Irish climate is perfect for mould growth and our building regulations are extremely weak.

    Anyone I know who’s moved here, other than from Britain which is similar, complains about encountering mouldy apartments or houses.

    Black mould spores are always in the air. You don’t “bring them with you”. If the the environment in the building is suitable, they’ll just grow. They’re part of the outdoor environment and break down dead material all the time.

    If a house goes totally mouldy when unoccupied there’s something seriously wrong with the construction - insulation & ventilation.

    The climate is also relatively benign compared to say Central Europe or most of North America, so heating systems are less likely to be always on and energy costs are very high too. If you take something like electric heating here the kWh cost is as high as it gets anywhere in the most expensive markets in the world, and it’s actually not made up here by tax imposed - we have just have extremely expensive electricity due to location and small size of market.

    So it all adds up to damp.


    I was in Puerto Rico on a 4 month contract.
    Never gets cold there but my god, the mould in houses and apartments.
    Where I was staying and any house or shop i visited was full of mould.
    Over there people would have bars on their windows and doors and never close the windows or doors. If they were closed the mould got worse.

    Climate is a major factor.

    At least in Ireland we only need good ventilation or to open the windows for an hour or two a day.


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    #43
    dancingqueen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭dancingqueen


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    So when a property is rented with a washing machine but no drier, what are tenants supposed to do?

    Regulations state that if there are no outside drying areas, a washer/dryer is to be supplied by the landlord.


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    #44
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I don't think the tenant should pay for improvements to the house. If it were their fault for not opening windows etc then maybe they should be out with some plastic gloves and a bottle of vinegar but the LL should pay for works to the house


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    #45
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    dancingqueen wrote: »
    Regulations state that if there are no outside drying areas, a washer/dryer is to be supplied by the landlord.

    I actually think given the climate in Ireland a separate dryer should be provided. Most washer dryers are utterly useless as dryers and not all clothing can be dried anyway.

    The vast majority of my shirts and T-shirt etc can’t be machine dried.

    We should be able encouraging use or heat pump dryers and ensuring outdoor drying spaces are designed in.

    From a property owners point of view, if you have a good and cost effective dryer in place, it would avoid some of these issues with clothes drying.

    The problem though is the climate and poor ventilation systems.

    Simple though the wall heat recovery vents can be retrofitted too. They don’t cause significant heat loss and maintain fresh air.

    The big issue tho is even with the windows wide open parts of the year here are just damp.


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    #46
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    I actually think given the climate in Ireland a separate dryer should be provided. Most washer dryers are utterly useless as dryers and not all clothing can be dried anyway.

    We should be able encouraging use or heat pump dryers.

    From a property owners point of view, if you have a good and cost effective dryer in place, it would avoid some of these issues with clothes drying.


    Some would say that rentals should be unfurnished like most of the rest of the world. Then you can just buy whatever white goods, beds, furniture you wnat to have and take it with you when you move. No more having to just settle for what is there already and probably worn out by previous tenants.


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    #47
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    We seem to have a total fixation on furnishing apartments here and an assumption they’re only ever going to be short term things.

    I agree tho, if you’re living in a lot of continental countries you might invest in your own furniture and appliances.

    The other thing I would point out though on the drying thing is that in hotter and dryer climates on the continent the use of dryers can be rare or seen as an outrageous environmental misuse of energy by some people.

    Even in Ireland a lot of tumble dryers were rarely used. The old through the wall vented models were huge energy hogs - 3kW of heat blown straight out the vent pipe. I remember plenty of households where the dryer was, like the immersion switch, NEVER to be used other than for slightly airing stuff.

    Heat pump dryers are very cheap to run in comparison. We have one that uses barely 700W and we really saw the bills drop.


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    #48
    dancingqueen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭dancingqueen


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    I actually think given the climate in Ireland a separate dryer should be provided. Most washer dryers are utterly useless as dryers and not all clothing can be dried anyway.

    The vast majority of my shirts and T-shirt etc can’t be machine dried.

    We should be able encouraging use or heat pump dryers and ensuring outdoor drying spaces are designed in.

    From a property owners point of view, if you have a good and cost effective dryer in place, it would avoid some of these issues with clothes drying.

    The problem though is the climate and poor ventilation systems.

    Simple though the wall heat recovery vents can be retrofitted too. They don’t cause significant heat loss and maintain fresh air.

    The big issue tho is even with the windows wide open parts of the year here are just damp.

    I don't disagree - but as a tenant, the cheapest option is always preferable to the landlord, in my experience.

    I lived in a damp ground floor apartment with 2 exterior walls that were freezing cold all year round, even in summer. The vents were open and the windows were open 24/7 as there were shutters inside them. The extractor fans in both kitchen and bathroom were over 15 years old, and the LL didn't want to replace them despite our bringing it to their attention numerous times over the time we lived there. Some places are just badly built for our climate.


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    #49
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    Sure when you see architects using things like external wood panelling here you’d have to wonder what imaginary world some of them live in.

    We don’t really seem to accept that we have a very damp climate.


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    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Some would say that rentals should be unfurnished like most of the rest of the world. Then you can just buy whatever white goods, beds, furniture you wnat to have and take it with you when you move. No more having to just settle for what is there already and probably worn out by previous tenants.

    Im all in favour of that. Sick of looking at the same Ikea coffee table for the last 15 years. It's not the actual same one, but everywhere I've rented they've furnished the place with the same cheap coffee table from Ikea and the same faux leather sofa from Crappy Sofas 'R' Us.


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    #51
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Im all in favour of that. Sick of looking at the same Ikea coffee table for the last 15 years. It's the actual same one, but everywhere I've rented they've furnished the place with the same cheap coffee table from Ikea and the same faux leather sofa from Crappy Sofas 'R' Us.


    In other countries you can rent furniture from a warehouse and give it back when you move out.
    They will deliver it and collect it and the quality can be as good as you want it to be. Its very cheap to to rent furniture that way.

    Some of these warehouses will even send out an interior designer to pick it out for you too as part of the service.


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    #52
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    ....

    If a house goes totally mouldy when unoccupied there’s something seriously wrong with the construction - insulation & ventilation.....

    I think the standard of construction in Ireland is very poor. Hardly any of it is inspected when under construction, and there is no system by which builders or tradesmen are forced to fix poor workmanship.

    So while you can blame the LL for everything. There isn't much they can do if everyone takes shortcuts and the building ends up poor made and designed. When its repaired, it gets repaired poorly and the problems just never go away.


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    #53
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    beauf wrote: »
    I think the standard of construction in Ireland is very poor. Hardly any of it is inspected when under construction, and there is no system by which builders or tradesmen are forced to fix poor workmanship.

    So while you can blame the LL for everything. There isn't much they can do if everyone takes shortcuts and the building ends up poor made and designed. When its repaired, it gets repaired poorly and the problems just never go away.

    Spot on. My sister in law bought a 2 bed "starter home" as they called it, there isn't a solid internal wall in the place, it's impossible to heat I reckon there was little or no insulation in the cavity.


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    #54
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    DubCount wrote: »
    Take a tenant moves who into an apartment and that apartment has a fully functioning washing machine supplied to the house by the LL. After a month the washing machine breaks down. A repair guy comes out, and says the machine was damaged by the tenant sitting on the door of the washing machine. It is not intentional damage, the LL owns the washing machine, but its the tenants liability because the actions of the tenant caused the damage.

    Just because this relates to the house itself (and not the fittings), does not change the principle. If the tenant is driving his/her car into a driveway and smashes into the front of the house, its not their property, but its their responsibility.

    If the damage (dampness/ mould/ wahsing machine) is just a matter of normal ware or something a tenant did not cause, then absolutely, the bill belongs to the LL. Even if its uncertain how something was damaged, then I would still say this is the Landlords cost to fix. Where the damage is caused by the tenant, then the tenant should pay - thats taking responsibility for your actions.

    Perhaps you misunderstood my post.
    I am of the stance it is stupid to pay 1300 euro on a place you don't own.
    If you want to say it's not on the LL - then that's a debate - but it's not on the tennant that's for sure.


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    #55
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    AIUI my friend did dry some clothes there and used the windows - however they work and can't have the windows open all day, every day.
    I don't believe that they unclogged the vents. Woukd this be a standard expectation for a tenant?
    They reckon there are issues with the property nonetheless.


    They didn't seal up the vents.

    We all dry clothes on doors this is Ireland. And yes they should clean the vents every so often, just run a hover over it.

    My take on this is it's up to the LL there should be extractors fans over the cooker and shower. That's not up to the tennant. Changing the vents might require a core bit on drill any decent handy man can do it.


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    #56
    NeuralNetwork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    For energy efficiency and also just laziness of installation, a lot of cooker hoods are just recirculating the air back into the kitchen with charcoal filters (usually not maintained) in the machine that are supposed to remove the odours.

    The moisture from cooking never leaves the house. It's a solution that should never be used, other than in a setup where there's a forced ventilation system in an ultra insulated home.

    Anywhere else, the cooker hood should really be fully vented outside and if gas is used it should always be.


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    #57
    XVII
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭XVII


    I would understand this discussion in the context of some other country, but definitely not Ireland, where the state of most of accommodation is just dreadful overall. No insulation, no adequate heating, rotten frames instead of windows, etc etc. Hard to judge without seeing actual apartment of course, but most likely it's one of those badly built places, like pretty much everywhere here.


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    #58
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    e. It was disgusting.


    I myself would never live anywhere without my dehumidifier.
    Never ever had a mould problem and i just take it with me anywhere i move to.
    Leave it on low for a couple of hours in the morning.

    I agree totally re a dehumidifier being a great asset. I used one in several rentals.


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    #59
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    NeuralNetwork wrote: »
    For energy efficiency and also just laziness of installation, a lot of cooker hoods are just recirculating the air back into the kitchen with charcoal filters (usually not maintained) in the machine that are supposed to remove the odours.

    The moisture from cooking never leaves the house. It's a solution that should never be used, other than in a setup where there's a forced ventilation system in an ultra insulated home.

    Anywhere else, the cooker hood should really be fully vented outside and if gas is used it should always be.

    Such hoods no longer meet minimum rental standards either.


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    #60
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,570 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Caranica wrote: »
    Such hoods no longer meet minimum rental standards either.

    When did these hoods fall foul of the building regulations? How can you have a externally vented hoods with MHRV?


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    #61
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    When did these hoods fall foul of the building regulations? How can you have a externally vented hoods with MHRV?

    You don't, the post in the quote mentioned situations other then with mechanical ventilation.


This discussion has been closed.
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