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A Takedown of RTE's Blatant Transphobia

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    #32
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    Really? I have.

    No... did I say you have?


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    #33
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Ok.


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    #34
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    My point is from the outside a lot of the terminology introduced is by essence divisive that’s the main idea of what I’m saying to keep it succinct and so as not to hugely digress.

    Yeah well thats because transphobia itself is divisive. So is the ideology behind trans exclusionary radical feminism. We have quite a lot of trans inclusive feminists here in Ireland thankfully.

    I dont see the the issue. It isnt labelling all feminists or all women as transphobes.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #35
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,363 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Balance from the perspective of a person who is constantly spending time directing hate towards trans people to be fair;

    Comparing trans campaigners to Nazis
    Campaigning to have a trans childrens charity defunded
    Verbally warned by police for harassment of a trans person

    Yeah "balance" from a hateful transphobic bigot
    jrmb wrote: »
    I agree that Linehan's views are appalling and that including him was an odd choice, but they have to feature a certain number of opposing opinions. They were probably hard pressed to find someone when they chose him.


    My problem isn't his views as such (objectionable and repulsive as they are) but that they brought it someone with no expertise or experience, just solely to import controversy.

    They weren't hard pressed at all to find other voices, they had Stella O'Malley and the UK academic already. If they wanted more, they could have found someone with expertise and experience - not a Twitter troll.


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    #36
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »

    They weren't hard pressed at all to find other voices, they had Stella O'Malley and the UK academic already. If they wanted more, they could have found someone with expertise and experience - not a Twitter troll.

    To be honest, O'Malley and Evans (the academic) inclusion were far more insidious. Bigotry wrapped in pseudo-psychology and warped sociology. Nothing the "academic" said is backed up by the recent research into gender and psychology - and O'Malley's arguments are entirely reliant upon her own autobiographical anecdotal, revisionist self-diagnosis, and fear mongering


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    Plenty of men identify as feminists, even if they may refuse or don't actively to acknowledge that. If you believe in equality then you are feminist.

    Thats not true


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    #38
    jrmb
    Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭jrmb


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    ...that they brought it someone with no expertise or experience, just solely to import controversy.
    Maybe, but I think it's more likely that nobody with expertise and experience would voice such an opinion. They had to present an alternative point of view (the balance rules are strict), and Linehan was the only speaker they could get.


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    #39
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yeah well thats because transphobia itself is divisive. So is the ideology behind trans exclusionary radical feminism. We have quite a lot of trans inclusive feminists here in Ireland thankfully.

    I dont see the the issue. It isnt labelling all feminists or all women as transphobes.

    There is a special division specifically for women a term that is exclusive of men no matter what people say 'radical feminism' does and will be perceived as anyone on the street as referring to women. Misogynists used to/do refer to women they disagree with as 'radical feminists' (louise o'neil etc.,) so quite frankly it makes me cringe when it is used in this way. I'm going to continue to refer to all those who discriminate against transgender people (ironically regardless of gender) as transphobes or transphobic there is no need for a special division, racists are just racists, homophobes are just homophobes regardless of gender.


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    #40
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jrmb wrote: »
    Maybe, but I think it's more likely that nobody with expertise and experience would voice such an opinion. They had to present an alternative point of view (the balance rules are strict), and Linehan was the only speaker they could get.

    Nonsense.

    Balance rules are not strict at all. They are only strict in relation to an election or referendum at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #41
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    There is a special division specifically for women a term that is exclusive of men no matter what people say 'radical feminism' does and will be perceived as anyone on the street as referring to women. Misogynists used to/do refer to women they disagree with as 'radical feminists' (louise o'neil etc.,) so quite frankly it makes me cringe when it is used in this way. I'm going to continue to refer to all those who discriminate against transgender people (ironically regardless of gender) as transphobes or transphobic there is no need for a special division, racists are just racists, homophobes are just homophobes regardless of gender.

    Nobody is telling you have to use the TERF term. You can use whatever you want to. I mean your argument is like saying white people are being targeted because of the term white supremacist. Thats nonsense. This is about identifying and targeting the ideology not the person.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #42
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Thats not true

    I don't understand this reasoning alright, I believe in equality for everyone and consider myself an egalitarian as a result of that.

    I do not consider myself a femanist as by the very nature of it's name, it is skewed away from equality and weighted towards one gender.

    I don't understand why folks can't now search for equality under the more reaching umbrella term of egalitarianism. It's far more inclusive.


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    #43
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I'm a cis male feminist who believes strongly in equality. I am perfectly happy as a cis male who believes strongly in equality to identify as a feminist. The idea that feminism isn't about equality always seems to me to be an anti feminist argument that is trying to push back at feminism and doesnt want feminism to gain further ground. I struggle to understand in that context why people who are anti feminist consider themselves eqalitarian.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #44
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I'm a cis male feminist who believes strongly in equality. I am perfectly happy as a cis male who believes strongly in equality to identify as a feminist. The idea that feminism isn't about equality always seems to me to be an anti feminist argument that is trying to push back at feminism and doesnt want feminism to gain further ground. I struggle to understand in that context why people who are anti feminist consider themselves eqalitarian.

    Why don't you just call yourself an egalitarian ?


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    #45
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Nope. Its singling out the ideology. Transphobia is part of the ideology of trans exclusionary radical feminism.
    Men can be terfs too. Nothing to do with singling out women at all. It is identifying the ideology.

    Feminism has many different ideologicsl strands by the way.

    As we have seen here in Irelsnd trans inclusive feminism is perfectly possible.

    Bit of a weird argument really. Women are not being singled out. Transphobes are.
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Nope. Its singling out the ideology. Transphobia is part of the ideology of trans exclusionary radical feminism.
    Men can be terfs too. Nothing to do with singling out women at all. It is identifying the ideology.

    Feminism has many different ideologicsl strands by the way.

    As we have seen here in Irelsnd trans inclusive feminism is perfectly possible.

    Bit of a weird argument really. Women are not being singled out. Transphobes are.

    Men are seldom thought of as feminists, if you go out and ask someone to picture a radical feminist they will picture a woman. I find your argument weird by the way because when you say feminist most of the populace think of a woman. I’m sure homophobic feminists and racist feminists exist but nobody has thought to single them out as there are so few so homophobe, racist suffice. The radical feminist complaint has been deployed by misogynists and it reminds me of that. I use the word transphobe.


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    #46
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    Why don't you just call yourself an egalitarian ?

    I believe the attempt to rename feminism as egalitarianism is actually anti feminist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #47
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Nobody is telling you have to use the TERF term. You can use whatever you want to. I mean your argument is like saying white people are being targeted because of the term white supremacist. Thats nonsense. This is about identifying and targeting the ideology not the person.

    The terf term has made it into the main stream and I disagree with its composition. I’ve already said why.


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    #48
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    Men are seldom thought of as feminists, if you go out and ask someone to picture a radical feminist they will picture a woman. I find your argument weird by the way because when you say feminist most of the populace think of a woman. I’m sure homophobic feminists and racist feminists exist but nobody has thought to single them out as there are so few so homophobe, racist suffice. The radical feminist complaint has been deployed by misogynists and it reminds me of that. I use the word transphobe.

    Thousands of Irish (women) feminists are trans inclusive feminists. I find it odd that there is an assumption we are branding all women as transphobes because we call terfs terfs.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #49
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,799 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    The terf term has made it into the main stream and I disagree with its composition. I’ve already said why.

    Im not asking you why???????

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #50
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I believe the attempt to rename feminism as egalitarianism is actually anti feminist.

    I cannot bang my head off a table hard enough after reading the above.

    Seriously?


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    #51
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I believe the attempt to rename feminism as egalitarianism is actually anti feminist.


    What issues that men are disproportionately affected by has feminism promoted and furthered, in Ireland?

    You can't claim feminism supports equality when they only champion one gender's issues.

    And it says plenty that when feminism is questionned you resort to ad hominems.


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    #52
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I believe the attempt to rename feminism as egalitarianism is actually anti feminist.

    If everyone were egalitarian, would there be any reason for feminism to exist ?

    If not, what would be wrong with that ?


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    #53
    jrmb
    Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭jrmb


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Balance rules are not strict at all. They are only strict in relation to an election or referendum at all.

    They will still preempt the grounds on which someone might complain and try to avoid such situations.


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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote:
    I'm a cis male feminist who believes strongly in equality.

    In a man who believes in equality.

    That's why im not a feminist


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    #55
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Im not asking you why???????

    Yes but you refuse to address it, you know most people equate feminists with women and radical feminism has been traditionally used as a slur yet you continue to defend the usage despite its misogynist origins. There is a word for transphobia and it is fingers on the buzzers...


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    #56
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Ya'll getting off topic, to be honest.


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    #57
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    If everyone were egalitarian, would there be any reason for feminism to exist ?

    If not, what would be wrong with that ?

    I think the difference is that feminism celebrates difference, where difference does not negatively impact women in areas like pay, treatment, etc. Much like Pride celebrates the 'other' rather than merely create a space where everyone is identical. There are differences between the two terms depending on what context you are talking about it in. I don't think JTP was inferring that egalitarianism is bad, more that there are many feminists who use feminism to actively highlight and celebrate the experience of womanhood in addition to fighting for rights/privileges.


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    #58
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    I think the difference is that feminism celebrates difference, where difference does not negatively impact women in areas like pay, treatment, etc.

    Which is why so much of 'equality' looks an awful lot more like 'privilege'.

    Equality in terms of doing hard, manual, physically demanding, low-paid unskilled work is there for the taking too, but not so enthusiastically adopted.

    A straightforward commitment to egalitarianism would circumvent the inconsistency.
    I don't think JTP was inferring that egalitarianism is bad, more that there are many feminists who use feminism to actively highlight and celebrate the experience of womanhood in addition to fighting for rights/privileges.

    Joey is a cis male parrot, and I think not in a position to celebrate the experience of womanhood. He doesn't have any.

    By instinct I am deeply, deeply suspicious of male feminists.


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    #59
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,163 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Guys if you want to discuss feminism can ye please create a new thread

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #60
    TomSweeney
    Registered Users Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭TomSweeney


    J_E wrote: »
    I was really quite disappointed at the inclusion of Graham Linehan as a 'credible' voice. It undermined the whole programme and brought the tone of the conversation on trans youth into the gutter and did serious damage to trans people seeking understanding. He can spout all he wants on Twitter, but to have that placed on television on a sensitive space like that, you couldn't help but feel like there were dubious motives.
    Dubious motives ?
    Speaking the truth is dubious ??


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    #61
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,363 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    TomSweeney wrote: »
    J_E wrote: »
    I was really quite disappointed at the inclusion of Graham Linehan as a 'credible' voice. It undermined the whole programme and brought the tone of the conversation on trans youth into the gutter and did serious damage to trans people seeking understanding. He can spout all he wants on Twitter, but to have that placed on television on a sensitive space like that, you couldn't help but feel like there were dubious motives.
    Dubious motives ?
    Speaking the truth is dubious ??
    Attempting to create controversy by importing a manufactured UK controversy is highly dubious.


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