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Cold Spell Prospects and Discussion (January + Early Feb 2012)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    AO is heading in one direction and one direction only, NAO is a bit more neutral at the moment. Would be nice to see the both of them negative.

    33audfb.jpg

    344s9c5.gif

    Is there any correlation between either one going negative and the other following suit?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 761 ✭✭✭dedon


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    Thought his date was mid-December 2011?:p

    Mark Vogan really got December totally wrong


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭blackius


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    The FI end of the 12z ECM is encouraging if you like cold weather. Second time in a row that the 12Z has delivered significant potential for break in the longstanding zonal setup.

    The building blocks are falling into place although, as Blackius has pointed out, they can come tumbling back down just as easy.

    At least we are now been given something to discuss in terms of the possibility of 'cold' winter weather and an end to the jetstream driven weather of the past month or more. No offence to those who like the stormy weather that we have been experiencing.

    By the way, much drier and calmer weather looks like kicking in for the weekend for all but the far west and north (as usual).

    ECH1-240.GIF?04-0


    NAO and AO remain on a fine line between indicating a colder spell and more of the same.

    187171.gif
    Bah humbug...thats a northwesterly...Donegal,sligo mayo and most of ulster would disappear under the deluge of snow where as the East would be looking on with nothing in Envy (for a day or two untill the tables turned when those lows dropped a bit further bringing in the northeaster :D)


  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭tzfrantic


    which is more important for cold the NAO OR AO


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭blackius


    Nao I would think being negative,the AO also being that is a bonus,the perfect twins so to speak
    A negative NAO needs to be in place to ensure the atlantic stays quiet and our weather comes from elsewhere usually somewhere colder and with negative dewpoints...something not renouned with roaring atlantic westerlies.

    Both being negative just increases the options.
    A negative AO leading to high pressure way up north wouldn't be much use if there was no blocking in the atlantic.So the latter is the most important imho but we need both for sustainability.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    I really hope 2 things come out of this, 1. a week of dry calm weather and 2, a week of easterly snow. Im not sure which im more sick of at this stage, the mild wet weather or the past 6 months of wind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    blackius wrote: »
    Nao I would think being negative,the AO also being that is a bonus,the perfect twins so to speak
    A negative NAO needs to be in place to ensure the atlantic stays quiet and our weather comes from elsewhere usually somewhere colder and with negative dewpoints...something not renouned with roaring atlantic westerlies.

    Both being negative just increases the options.
    A negative AO leading to high pressure way up north wouldn't be much use if there was no blocking in the atlantic.So the latter is the most important imho but we need both for sustainability.

    I've shown in the winter thread that it was the AO going negative that gave us the cold blast in Feb 91 for the example you were asking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon


    Same date MArk Vogan is going for as well!


    I have to say that I like to look up Vogan's website and videos, he puts some effort into the weather for an amateur! However, he got December 2011/January 2012 as wrong as you could get. If you had believed his forecast, Glasgow temps would now be dipping down to around -20oC at night and Britain and Ireland would be covered in snow.

    Once Christmas passed, he then said he could see the cold coming to our shores around mid Jan.

    Now move forward to his latest update today:

    "I see the changes further afield which may suggest a turn to COLDER and more settled by LATE January. It will take time and if we don't see the merging of both negative NAO with the AO, then I don't see much substantial 'Arctic cold' coming this season"

    A breathtaking turnaround from the original forecast he put out!! :D

    I would suggest that when he issues his winter forecast next year, he puts a serious health warning on it confirming that the AO and NAO have to turn negative before any real cold would hit the UK & Ireland :)

    D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    Much improved run for GEFS in relation to prospects for cold in the mid month period around 18-18th Jan. Heights are rising around Greenland with cold air plunging south and southeast from the arctic from 14-15th. However, we are stuck in somewhat of a cold zonal setup. As long as the models keep trending colder....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/pattern-change-winter-coming-snow-cold/59847

    Interesting update from accuweather regardIng mid month for the USA

    400x266_01041745_patternchangenxwk.jpg

    "Rather than just a west to east jet stream across North America with little disturbances in it like we had during much of December, we now have much larger southward dips and northward bulges. "

    Meanwhile, for the first time this winter the UKMO is hinting at "slightly" colder but more settled conditions in its monthly outlook for the UK.

    "UK Outlook for Thursday 19 Jan 2012 to Thursday 2 Feb 2012:Remaining fairly unsettled in the north at first, with spells of wind and rain, interspersed by brighter but colder conditions with showers, wintry over high ground in particular. Further south, somewhat quieter conditions look more likely, with less in the way of rain. Towards the end of January, high pressure may become more influential, resulting in drier and probably brighter conditions becoming more prevalent across the country. Temperatures for many areas will initially be around or slightly above average, with a trend to slightly colder conditions towards the end of the month, bringing an increased risk of overnight frost and perhaps some fog.
    Updated: 1329 on Wed 4 Jan 2012"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭john mayo 10


    The charts seem to be all over the place at the minute , it must be a sign of something happening


  • Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭davidsr20


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/pattern-change-winter-coming-snow-cold/59847

    Interesting update from accuweather regardIng mid month for the USA

    400x266_01041745_patternchangenxwk.jpg

    "Rather than just a west to east jet stream across North America with little disturbances in it like we had during much of December, we now have much larger southward dips and northward bulges. "

    Meanwhile, for the first time this winter the UKMO is hinting at "slightly" colder but more settled conditions in its monthly outlook for the UK.

    "UK Outlook for Thursday 19 Jan 2012 to Thursday 2 Feb 2012:Remaining fairly unsettled in the north at first, with spells of wind and rain, interspersed by brighter but colder conditions with showers, wintry over high ground in particular. Further south, somewhat quieter conditions look more likely, with less in the way of rain. Towards the end of January, high pressure may become more influential, resulting in drier and probably brighter conditions becoming more prevalent across the country. Temperatures for many areas will initially be around or slightly above average, with a trend to slightly colder conditions towards the end of the month, bringing an increased risk of overnight frost and perhaps some fog.
    Updated: 1329 on Wed 4 Jan 2012"

    Slightly colder with fog is that it :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,010 ✭✭✭Tom Cruises Left Nut


    Seems to be toys out of pram time over on NW !!! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭blackius


    Yeah it looks great for the U.S next week or two.
    Total uncertainty still this side of the pond.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,130 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Looks like another few storms may come our way before a change in pattern


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Enderman wrote: »
    Looks like another few storms may come our way before a change in pattern

    On a dodgy connection here and can't check all the models. What are you seeing Enderman?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    Heights trying to build over scandi out to T192

    vcrszc.png

    Then reverts to slightly colder zonal in FI with this storm on the 15th

    2qtk68p.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭tylercollins


    baraca wrote: »
    Heights trying to build over scandi out to T192

    Then reverts to slightly colder zonal in FI with this storm on the 15th

    Weather do you get those charts?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,010 ✭✭✭Tom Cruises Left Nut


    Weather do you get those charts?

    http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=nwdc;sess=


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭Pangea


    Just seen M.T.s guess of -18 on the forecast competiton, lets hope hes as right as he was with the malin head gust speed guess!

    P.S any results on the storm forecast competition?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,870 ✭✭✭pauldry


    Was thinking that there is cold weather looking likely myself before I logged on.

    However it looks more like 4s and 5s than zeros so probably a few days of mixed showers.

    As for MTs minus 18.. never write him off.;)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    pauldry wrote: »

    As for MTs minus 18.. never write him off.;)

    Look at the downside.

    If he's right there goes my chances of winning the winter 11/12 forecast :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,010 ✭✭✭Tom Cruises Left Nut


    Better looking GFS this morning... to my eyes anyway !

    187371.png

    187372.png

    187373.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Latest ECM 32 Day signalling a colder and far less zonal outlook late January and into early February...blocking to the W or NW possible
    Matt Hugo


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,010 ✭✭✭Tom Cruises Left Nut


    At least this GFS run has stopped some of the wrist slashing on NW :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    ECM and GEFS both indicate a spill south of cold over from the Arctic air during the next 5-7 days over North America with further Arctic surges into Eastern Europe later in the same period. By mid-January or closer to 16-18th it appears that anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere could experience such a 'toppler'.

    I think the models, particularly the GEFS, is struggling to handle the expected drop into negative territory of the AO/warming of stratosphere and the possible splitting of the polar vortex. As MTC and others here have said, models can change dramatically very quickly in such a set-up so it may take until early next week before we can say with any great certainty what conditions will be like beyond 15 Jan.

    At present I would put down the following confidence markers for likely conditions around 16-18th:
    Settled with high pressure nearby, temps around or slightly above average 10%
    Settled with high pressure nearby, temps below average 10%
    Arctic toppler, wintry showers for some, severe nighttime frosts (3-4 days) - 20%
    Strong jetstream, stormy and unsettled in a predominantly SW-W flow 25%
    Cold zonal (temps around or slightly below average, with mixed wintry showers in a W-NW flow) 35%

    Looking at the GEFS ensembles and there are mixed signals but more of a cooling trend that yesterday. Meanwhile, the AO is still edging towards negative territory while the NAO looks like staying low positive.
    187376.png
    187377.gif

    **********************************

    Update from UKMO at 1114 today (favours that cold zonal setup mentioned above):

    UK Outlook for Wednesday 11 Jan 2012 to Friday 20 Jan 2012:
    Northwestern Britain will see often rather unsettled and windy weather with spells of rain, particularly at first. Remaining areas will also see some rain or drizzle on occasion, but should be largely dry, with some patchy fog developing overnight and lasting into the mornings. Daytime temperatures will be largely mild, although there is an increasing chance of overnight frost towards the weekend. The weekend and following week are expected to see the unsettled weather in the northwest spread gradually southeastwards, with showers in the north of the country turning increasingly wintry. Temperatures should become nearer normal in most areas with overnight frosts expected, and there will be an increasing risk of gales or severe gales towards the far north and northwest of the UK later in the period.

    **********************************

    This appears to be backed up by Simon Keeling of weatheronline.co.uk

    "The 12Z run of the GFS model is highlighting the jet stream slipping southwards from Sunday 15th. This puts it over the south of the UK/northern France, placing the UK on the colder side of the jet and reducing temperatures.

    It's not a huge freeze but is enough to lower temperatures sufficiently for snow to fall in Scotland and perhaps at times in showers over northern England and Wales. Most of northern Europe (UK, Ireland and Scandinavia) will be into these cooler conditions with heavy snow at times through Scandinavia, and perhaps parts of northern Germany and Poland.

    Severe gales at times in northern France, the Low Countries and Germany, perhaps even southern England. I'm not jumping for joy at my forecast being vindicated just yet, but it is good to see models falling inline, although this is only the GFS for the moment."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,548 ✭✭✭Harps


    Not much showing up on the main models for us but still plenty of encouraging signs there as you say, the Arctic Oscillation is clearly weakening with strong signs of a high penetrating the vortex over Alaska this week and extreme cold flooding well south into North America next week

    The coming 5 days look like a total write off for interesting weather but cold zonality gives plenty of interesting weather for Donegal so I'd gladly take a return to that if there's no major cold spell on the immediate horizon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    GEFS and ECM both starting to pick up on the warming event in the strato. Both hinting at a cold zonal setup at present. The below chart would certainly deliver some mixed wintry and windy weather i.e. a real winter storm
    187469.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭tylercollins


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    The below chart would certainly deliver some mixed wintry and windy weather i.e. a real winter storm

    When you say a real winter storm, what are we actually talking? Blizzards? Thundersnow?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭delw


    WolfeIRE wrote: »
    GEFS and ECM both starting to pick up on the warming event in the strato. Both hinting at a cold zonal setup at present. The below chart would certainly deliver some mixed wintry and windy weather i.e. a real winter storm
    187469.png
    Chances of this coming off WolfeIRE,slim if not at all
    it's posted in FI thread aswell


This discussion has been closed.
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