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24-06-2020, 20:48   #46
Yellow_Fern
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Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4 View Post
Maybe a small bit better?
But, by the time you're getting that badly tortured would you really be thinking, "so glad this this torture is being done to me for imperial reasons & not a religous fundamental ideology." ?
One crime during one particularly bad outbreak in one colony doesn't define the history of a continent.
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24-06-2020, 21:48   #47
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One crime during one particularly bad outbreak in one colony doesn't define the history of a continent.
You think the 1950's was "one particularly bad outbreak" when compared to the rest of the time European powers colonised Africa?

Are you insane?
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24-06-2020, 21:51   #48
Lyan
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link - https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zmkwtfcAL...hands_1904.jpg
A father stares at the severed hand and foot of his five-year-old daughter as punishment for failing to make the daily rubber quota, in Belgian Congo, 1904.
It was other native African guards hired by the Belgians that did that, not white Belgians. Is there evidence of the Belgians giving a mandate for them to do this?
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24-06-2020, 23:21   #49
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It was other native African guards hired by the Belgians that did that, not white Belgians. Is there evidence of the Belgians giving a mandate for them to do this?
There is a mountian of evidence that King Leopold ordered his forces in the Belgian Congo to do the things they did. Cutting off hands and genitles and murdering over approximately 15,000,000 people in a period of 23 years up to 1908.

The population of the area was reduced by +/- 25% due to his rule.
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25-06-2020, 01:12   #50
Lyan
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There is a mountian of evidence that King Leopold ordered his forces in the Belgian Congo to do the things they did. Cutting off hands and genitles and murdering over approximately 15,000,000 people in a period of 23 years up to 1908.

The population of the area was reduced by +/- 25% due to his rule.
Can you provide a source please?
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25-06-2020, 01:30   #51
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If you already knew about the likes of Leopold and their actions, then I have serious misgivings about your motivation for asking this question.
If you have "serious misgivings" say what your problem is. Don't just do the Pontius Pilate "just saying" trick, of smearing while dodging responsibity for your words.
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25-06-2020, 01:30   #52
MidlanderMan
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Can you provide a source please?
Are you being obtuse are you genuine this ignorant of the historical record of Leopold II's rule of Belgian Congo?

I find the latter hard to believe.
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25-06-2020, 01:59   #53
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Are you being obtuse are you genuine this ignorant of the historical record of Leopold II's rule of Belgian Congo?

I find the latter hard to believe.
I genuinely want to see a source showing the Kingdom of Belgium's government or Leopold II mandating that limbs be cut off of workers and their families for minor disobedience.

I know what happened. I just want to see if it was an official policy or if it was something that happened but ignored by the Belgians/not investigated/not taken seriously/etc. I can't imagine it was official policy as the whole debacle turned out to be quite embarrassing for Belgium when all the details came out.

Last edited by Lyan; 25-06-2020 at 02:03.
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25-06-2020, 02:51   #54
Peregrinus
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I know what happened. I just want to see if it was an official policy or if it was something that happened but ignored by the Belgians/not investigated/not taken seriously/etc. I can't imagine it was official policy as the whole debacle turned out to be quite embarrassing for Belgium when all the details came out.
Why would it matter which of these two is the case? Either is absolutely damning to your thesis that the evils of colonialism were isolated aberrations rather than an integral aspect of the system. If these evils are being perpetrated it makes no difference at all, practically, politically or morally, whether are beeing systematically ordered or merely systematically ignored. Either way, the system is depraved and that depravity is producing monstrous and unconscionable outcomes.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 25-06-2020 at 03:00.
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25-06-2020, 04:00   #55
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Why would it matter which of these two is the case? Either is absolutely damning to your thesis that the evils of colonialism were isolated aberrations rather than an integral aspect of the system. If these evils are being perpetrated it makes no difference at all, practically, politically or morally, whether are beeing systematically ordered or merely systematically ignored. Either way, the system is depraved and that depravity is producing monstrous and unconscionable outcomes.
Justice doesn't view the world in black and white.

Anyway what thesis are you talking about? I just want a clear picture of what happened back then.
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25-06-2020, 04:16   #56
Peregrinus
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Justice doesn't view the world in black and white.

Anyway what thesis are you talking about? I just want a clear picture of what happened back then.
Well. you came in to ask:
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It was other native African guards hired by the Belgians that did that, not white Belgians. Is there evidence of the Belgians giving a mandate for them to do this?
The answer is "sytematically ordering this" and "sytematically creating the conditions which incentivise this and and giving people the authority to do it and then accepting it when they do it" are both mandates to do it.

In much the way that historians look for evidence of the occasions on which Hitler directly ordered the implementation of the Final Solution, so they might look for orders that Belgian officials directly ordered mutilations. But the former question is not relevant to the issue of whether the Nazis mandated the Final Solution - they clearly did - and the latter question is equally not relevant to the issue you say concerns you. The Congo Free State clearly mandated this behaviour. It makes no difference at all whether any of the various officials who were directly or indirectly complicit in various ways were black or white, Belgian or Congolese; they were all agents of the Congo Free State, which - relevantly to the topic of this thread - was a colonial institution.
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25-06-2020, 04:24   #57
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It was other native African guards hired by the Belgians that did that, not white Belgians. Is there evidence of the Belgians giving a mandate for them to do this?
Why would the Belgians tolerate such maiming and murdering people? Because it was policy. Policy was to extract resources by brutality, not incentivisation.

Can you imagine a situation where a beef factory would tolerate it's staff killing farmers en masse, if it wasn't policy?

Last edited by Victor; 25-06-2020 at 04:28.
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25-06-2020, 04:25   #58
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I have no thesis. I stated a fact and I asked for a source. I don't need you implying I shouldn't be asking for it.
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25-06-2020, 04:34   #59
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I have no thesis. I stated a fact and I asked for a source. I don't need you implying I shouldn't be asking for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_...asement_Report and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casement_Report - these are references in that.
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25-06-2020, 04:43   #60
Peregrinus
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I have no thesis. I stated a fact and I asked for a source. I don't need you implying I shouldn't be asking for it.
You did more than state a fact and ask for a source; you also asked "Is there evidence of the Belgians giving a mandate for them to do this?"

I have offered an answer to that question; the Congo Free State mandated them to do this and, if you accept that the Congo Free State was controlled by Belgians (you don't want a source for that, do you?) then it follows that Belgians mandated it.

Perhaps I was wrong to ascribe a "thesis" to you, in which case I apologise. What I was getting at was that you started out by asking:

"Is there evidence of the Belgians giving a mandate for them to do this?"

But you subsequently say:

"I just want to see if it was an official policy or if it was something that happened but ignored by the Belgians/not investigated/not taken seriously/etc."

By "thesis" I mean the implication that it makes some difference whether Belgian colonial officials (a) ordered mutilations, or (b) merely authorised, encouraged and accepted mutilations; that the former wsould be a "mandate" for mutilations but the latter would not. If that is your view, it is wrong, and fairly transparently so. If that is not your view, then I humbly apologise for ever thinking that it was. But in that case you should explain why you ask the question at all. Does the distinction matter in any way, or have you abandoned your concern with mandates and are merely looking for an answer to a trivial question that is wholly unrelated to your earlier question?
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