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13-04-2020, 17:57   #31
BalcombeSt4
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Originally Posted by Yellow_Fern View Post
Africa is an enormous place, yes there were terrible atrocities. But is a varied picture and some of the colonialist did amazing work. You can't compare Cromwell to what happened in Africa. Africa is a region where there was vastly less European influence. For example the vast majority of African arable land was never farmed by Europeans. Anyone who equates the British army of the 1950s to ISIS is a moron.
You're right, the right the British Army in the 1950's nearly started a nuclear war over Suez, and killed a lot more than ISIS.

Anyone who defends clear-cut war crimes is a moron.
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13-04-2020, 18:42   #32
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Actually Angolans loves the Portuguese, they even feel Portuguese and support they team and watch their tvs. Don't know about the Algerians but I know many of them emigrated to France after they expelled the French minority (I can consider that a racism or xenophobia). Italy was the best colonialist country, they did too much for the small amount of colonial period. I went to Egypt and all the infrastructure there was made when during English rule. I think France maybe was the worst by seeing Mali, Chad, Mauritania etc... The French ex-colonies are the worst in Africa. Dutch colonialism was also not bad, in South Africa they did populated the empty area and not only explored. And to finish the topic, Salazar was right and had a great vision of the future os decolonization of Africa, that man had an IQ was superior to his fascist homologues, he knew exaclty what would happen to Africa without Europeans.
So why did the Angolians fight a war of liberation against Portugal in which 50,000+ people died.
I'll assume the part about Italy was a joke in poor taste.
I didn't know the English built the Pyramids, did they build Machu Picchu & the city of Atlantis as well?
Some minorities learn to love their oppresser. In Ireland Carson formed 100,000 man militia tofight against Irish freedom.
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13-04-2020, 18:48   #33
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You're right, the right the British Army in the 1950's nearly started a nuclear war over Suez, and killed a lot more than ISIS.

Anyone who defends clear-cut war crimes is a moron.
When people raise ISIS in discussions its rarely as a means to offer an example of record numbers of human killings. It is normally to refer to ISIS's extreme evil or the ideological nature of its evil so your comment is churlish.
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14-04-2020, 08:49   #34
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If all of that is correct, what on earth were you doing here?
Pointing out the weaknesses in the position stated in your OP. If you were looking for discussion in which people only commented on your OP in order to agree with it, I think you've come to the wrong discussion forum.
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17-04-2020, 20:31   #35
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Italy was the best colonialist country, they did too much for the small amount of colonial period.
You left out the part in the 1930´s they flew low level over Ethiopia and spread mustard gas. They used gas multiple times in that war
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17-04-2020, 22:53   #36
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Pointing out the weaknesses in the position stated in your OP. If you were looking for discussion in which people only commented on your OP in order to agree with it, I think you've come to the wrong discussion forum.
Wrong. I invited, and received, comments pro and con. I think we're doing fine here, thank you.

If you think the thread is in need of improvement you like everybody else are free to post a constructive contribution on either side of the discussion.

Last edited by feargale; 18-04-2020 at 21:37.
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19-04-2020, 07:20   #37
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Wrong. I invited, and received, comments pro and con. I think we're doing fine here, thank you.

If you think the thread is in need of improvement you like everybody else are free to post a constructive contribution on either side of the discussion.
So are you, which was kind of the point of my first post in the thread, to which you apparently took exception.
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21-04-2020, 16:30   #38
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I have read a comment in another site asserting that Africa's best years were in the colonial era. Please discuss, comment, criticise.
I don't think Africa's best years were in the colonial era. Fundamentally, colonialism is economically exploitative and/or racist. 'The white man's burden' and the 'civilizing mission' were largely, though maybe not entirely, excuses.

On virtually all metrics, Africa is a better place to live in today than it was when it was ruled by European Powers. Since independence, taking the continent as a whole:
  • there are more democratic regimes
  • most African countries have benefited from economic growth
  • life expectancy has risen
  • infant mortality has declined
  • a higher proportion of children and young people receive a formal education
  • poverty has fallen, while the middle class has expanded

Sources: African Development Bank Group, Tracking Africa's Progress in Figures (Tunis: African Development Bank Group, 2014) and Our World in Data, Africa in Data slideshow
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24-04-2020, 01:08   #39
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When people raise ISIS in discussions its rarely as a means to offer an example of record numbers of human killings. It is normally to refer to ISIS's extreme evil or the ideological nature of its evil so your comment is churlish.
But like beauty, evil is a subjective quality.

Me and you find beheading people horrible, shocking & disgusting. A minority find it thrilling & a thing of glory.

It is strange, people celebrate the French Revolution now, yet tens of thousands of people lost their heads, even the Royal couple, and people were cheering while the beheadings took place. Are the French "evil"?

ISIS share the same ideology that Saudi arabia (Wahhabism) have, yeah that country the U S gives billions of dollars in hi-tech weaponry to, the same weapons the Saudi's have used to create hell on earth for Yemen, hmmmmmm I wonder who gives ISIS their weapons?
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24-04-2020, 02:12   #40
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Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4 View Post
You're right, the right the British Army in the 1950's nearly started a nuclear war over Suez, and killed a lot more than ISIS.
I don't remeber ISIS putting 1 million + Kenyan Tribes People in concentration camps either...
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24-04-2020, 05:25   #41
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I don't remeber ISIS putting 1 million + Kenyan Tribes People in concentration camps either...
My point exactly. They never caused several famines in India either & 2 major ones in Ireand. Never split Palestine into a chess board were fighting continues to this day over it. Speaking of camps, the Boers were the first of camps of the modern war era.

This does not mean ISIS are good far from it, but they're the latest line of boogymen. First the "red" Indian, the sneaky "Japs", reds under the bed, Castro, plane hijackers who were "always" Palestinian, Taliban & Bin Laden even tho we armed them, ISIS, Mexican immigrants ..... And the West forgets t's own dirty past.

Wonder who'll be next.

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24-04-2020, 11:54   #42
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I don't remeber ISIS putting 1 million + Kenyan Tribes People in concentration camps either...
Yeah ISIS don't use concentration camps. They just put people to the sword right away. Internment camps and concentration camps violate human rights but they are normally used on the basis that human life is worth of protection or that a state has to at least pretend that human life is worth protecting. Colonialism has a dark history but European colonialism was usually practised by states that shared many values we have today. The same can not be said of ISIS.

The Brits did not cause famines in India. Neither did they cause the Irish Great Hunger. Their policy made it worse but was not the cause.
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25-04-2020, 03:37   #43
Peregrinus
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European colonialism: not quite as bad as ISIS.

It doesn't go very far towards supporting the thesis in the OP, does it?
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25-04-2020, 09:30   #44
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
European colonialism: not quite as bad as ISIS.

It doesn't go very far towards supporting the thesis in the OP, does it?
A lot better than ISIS and this isnt a defence of colonialism and in some cases colonialism helped people eg. British ending of the Arab slave trade.

Yes I would agree that Africa's best days were not in the colonial period. Africa is a rapidly growing continent and there is enormous economic activity there. That been in said, you will always find exceptions, in the height of the AIDs crisis perhaps some African countries were slightly worse than under colonialism but that is debatable. Until recently Kenya's colonial train network was far better than post colonial. The Democratic Republic of Congos road network was better under colonialism but these are just small exceptions. Africa started far behind Europe due to vastly harder enviroment. Ireland adopted the plough in the Neolithic, much of tropical Africa was never able to and is transitioning from hand hoe to tractor. They have a long transition to do.
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24-06-2020, 18:09   #45
BalcombeSt4
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A lot better than ISIS and this isnt a defence of colonialism and in some cases colonialism helped people eg. British ending of the Arab slave trade.

Yes I would agree that Africa's best days were not in the colonial period. Africa is a rapidly growing continent and there is enormous economic activity there. That been in said, you will always find exceptions, in the height of the AIDs crisis perhaps some African countries were slightly worse than under colonialism but that is debatable. Until recently Kenya's colonial train network was far better than post colonial. The Democratic Republic of Congos road network was better under colonialism but these are just small exceptions. Africa started far behind Europe due to vastly harder enviroment. Ireland adopted the plough in the Neolithic, much of tropical Africa was never able to and is transitioning from hand hoe to tractor. They have a long transition to do.
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We knew the slow method of torture [at the Mau Mau Investigation Center] was worse than anything we could do. Special Branch there had a way of slowly electrocuting a Kuke—they'd rough up one for days. Once I went personally to drop off one gang member who needed special treatment. I stayed for a few hours to help the boys out, softening him up. Things got a little out of hand. By the time I cut his balls off, he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one, I think, was hanging out of its socket. Too bad, he died before we got much out of him.
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Castration by British troops and denying access to medical aid to the detainees were also widespread and common. Among the detainees who suffered severe mistreatment was, the grandfather of Barack Obama, the former President of the United States. According to his widow, British soldiers forced pins into his fingernails and buttocks and squeezed his testicles between metal rods and two others were castrated.
Maybe a small bit better?
But, by the time you're getting that badly tortured would you really be thinking, "so glad this this torture is being done to me for imperial reasons & not a religous fundamental ideology." ?
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