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17-02-2020, 18:13   #16
feargale
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Aren't there two sides to this?
On the one hand you could say that before European colonialism Africa had one slave trade, emanating from north of the Sahara and controlled by Arabs, and then with the advent of Europeans it had two slave trades, the old one and a new one.
But are Europeans entitled to credit for abolishing slavery, or at least attempting to do so and largely succeeding? I'm thinking of the de facto continuation of slavery in places such as Sudan and Mauretania.
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17-02-2020, 18:41   #17
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Aren't there two sides to this?
On the one hand you could say that before European colonialism Africa had one slave trade, emanating from north of the Sahara and controlled by Arabs, and then with the advent of Europeans it had two slave trades, the old one and a new one.
But are Europeans entitled to credit for abolishing slavery, or at least attempting to do so and largely succeeding? I'm thinking of the de facto continuation of slavery in places such as Sudan and Mauretania.
You are talking about many different countries run by different colonial powers. You cant treat them as a unified force.
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25-02-2020, 16:37   #18
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link - https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zmkwtfcAL...hands_1904.jpg
A father stares at the severed hand and foot of his five-year-old daughter as punishment for failing to make the daily rubber quota, in Belgian Congo, 1904.
The question is too broad. Clearly the natives of the Congo would have been better off without Belgian colonisation.

But... it has been said, by people in the Congo today who remember the 1950s, that this was the best period most of the people in terms of quality of life. e.g. relative peace compared with never ending conflict since the 1960s. The introduction of education and healthcare etc. This doesn't justify the horrors that preceded it, it just what it is.
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25-02-2020, 16:40   #19
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The million+ Kikukyu tribesmen rounded up and put into concentration camps in Kenya as recently as the 1950s might disagree about the greatness of of colonial period in Africa. Some of them are even alive if you'd like to ask them yourself.
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25-02-2020, 17:30   #20
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The million+ Kikukyu tribesmen rounded up and put into concentration camps in Kenya as recently as the 1950s might disagree about the greatness of of colonial period in Africa. Some of them are even alive if you'd like to ask them yourself.
You were doing fine until you came to the piece in bold. Let's have light rather than heat please.

After all this is the history forum.

We've already had a poster.with "serious misgivings about my motivation." There are too many in boards.ie who find it very difficult to have an exchange of views and information without getting hot under the collar or prejudging. As John A. Murphy said the function of a historian is to investigate and state the facts, no more, no less.

Last edited by feargale; 25-02-2020 at 17:38.
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25-02-2020, 18:03   #21
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Actually Angolans loves the Portuguese, they even feel Portuguese and support they team and watch their tvs. Don't know about the Algerians but I know many of them emigrated to France after they expelled the French minority (I can consider that a racism or xenophobia). Italy was the best colonialist country, they did too much for the small amount of colonial period. I went to Egypt and all the infrastructure there was made when during English rule. I think France maybe was the worst by seeing Mali, Chad, Mauritania etc... The French ex-colonies are the worst in Africa. Dutch colonialism was also not bad, in South Africa they did populated the empty area and not only explored. And to finish the topic, Salazar was right and had a great vision of the future os decolonization of Africa, that man had an IQ was superior to his fascist homologues, he knew exaclty what would happen to Africa without Europeans.
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25-02-2020, 18:46   #22
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The question is too broad. Clearly the natives of the Congo would have been better off without Belgian colonisation.

But... it has been said, by people in the Congo today who remember the 1950s, that this was the best period most of the people in terms of quality of life. e.g. relative peace compared with never ending conflict since the 1960s. The introduction of education and healthcare etc. This doesn't justify the horrors that preceded it, it just what it is.
How much of that conflict was as a direct result of colonialism though? Ethnic and regional conflicts due to the lumping of many different groups into one country, continued Belgian interference, a lack of educated black citizens to administer the country?
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25-02-2020, 21:04   #23
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How much of that conflict was as a direct result of colonialism though? Ethnic and regional conflicts due to the lumping of many different groups into one country, continued Belgian interference, a lack of educated black citizens to administer the country?
All true, but they don’t address the OP question.
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26-02-2020, 22:27   #24
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How much of that conflict was as a direct result of colonialism though? Ethnic and regional conflicts due to the lumping of many different groups into one country, continued Belgian interference, a lack of educated black citizens to administer the country?
There was no natural states to draw lines around to make better countries in the Congo Basin. Linguistically the situation is so difficult that their lingua franca is French and Swahili a language from the Indian Ocean Coast. The story of Congo is very complex and Belgians set up a system that encouraged enormous cruelty in the search for rubber but it is too much of a reach to say the current unrest in Congo is caused by Belgium. Congo was also de stabilised earlier to the Belgium rubber trade by Arab and European slave trades which are linked with enormous population collapses while the Portuguese introduction of maize and cassava caused significant population expansions.
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26-02-2020, 22:34   #25
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The million+ Kikukyu tribesmen rounded up and put into concentration camps in Kenya as recently as the 1950s might disagree about the greatness of of colonial period in Africa. Some of them are even alive if you'd like to ask them yourself.
Do you always multiply numbers by ten or only for your political agenda?
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160,000 were detained
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-12997138
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27-02-2020, 07:17   #26
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Do you always multiply numbers by ten or only for your political agenda?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-12997138
160+k nationalist fighters were officially detained, on top of that approximately 1 million Kikuyu people were rounded up and "resettled" in "villages" which were controlled by British troops. The "villages" were likened to concentration camps or gulags.
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11-04-2020, 19:49   #27
feargale
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Actually Angolans loves the Portuguese, they even feel Portuguese and support they team and watch their tvs. Don't know about the Algerians but I know many of them emigrated to France after they expelled the French minority (I can consider that a racism or xenophobia). Italy was the best colonialist country, they did too much for the small amount of colonial period. I went to Egypt and all the infrastructure there was made when during English rule. I think France maybe was the worst by seeing Mali, Chad, Mauritania etc... The French ex-colonies are the worst in Africa. Dutch colonialism was also not bad, in South Africa they did populated the empty area and not only explored. And to finish the topic, Salazar was right and had a great vision of the future os decolonization of Africa, that man had an IQ was superior to his fascist homologues, he knew exaclty what would happen to Africa without Europeans.
You forgot to mention the German colonisers and how much they were loved in Namibia, especially by the Herrero people. The Italian army was so good in Libya that, being very modest, to this day public discussion of their role there is forbidden in Italy. Yes the Dutch populated the empty areas of South Africa, after they had emptied them. They were very nice in Indonesia too, as my Indonesian neigbour assured me.

P.S. Which of the Reichs is your username a homage to, or can we guess?

Last edited by feargale; 11-04-2020 at 19:58.
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11-04-2020, 19:55   #28
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What more is there to say?

“Were Africa’s best years in the colonial era?” - Yes, if you were a Belgian tyrant making money off rubber plantations.

If you already knew about the likes of Leopold and their actions, then I have serious misgivings about your motivation for asking this question.

Just because the Arabs did something before the Europeans doesn’t make it right. Sure it’s alright to rob the granny who lives down the street, some gang did it last week already so it’s acceptable now.
I ask a question, and you question my motivation. So much for the devotion to free expression and open discussion by pseudo-liberals. Yours is the questionable motivation.
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11-04-2020, 19:56   #29
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Very hard to discuss, comment or criticise when no reason is offered in support of this conclusion, and nothing is said about what is meant by "best years".

If what you have relayed is the full amount of what was posted in the other site, then my comment is: this is not worth my time.

If what you have relayed is less than the full amount of what was posted in the other site, then my comment is: why are you censoring this?
If all of that is correct, what on earth were you doing here?
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11-04-2020, 21:33   #30
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You forgot to mention the German colonisers and how much they were loved in Namibia, especially by the Herrero people. The Italian army was so good in Libya that, being very modest, to this day public discussion of their role there is forbidden in Italy. Yes the Dutch populated the empty areas of South Africa, after they had emptied them. They were very nice in Indonesia too, as my Indonesian neigbour assured me.

P.S. Which of the Reichs is your username a homage to, or can we guess?
The terrible events that happened in the Congo and in Namibia are famous because it is the exception. Namibia is an enormous place and the events you refer to to took place over only four years. For me its a very small snap of a very long history. By and large I wouldnt focus on praising European interventions but I do think European policies had limited impact. What had much bigger impact was the enhanced globalisation of Africa that Europeans brought.
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