The Leinster Championship is dead.

Say Your Number · 23-11-2020 5:24pm

Up to 6/7 years ago, Dublin against Meath or Kildare were exciting games you'd be looking forward to, now they are just completely pointless, if I was a Dublin fan, I don't think I'd take much pleasure in how it has gone, it's like beating a computer game on easy mode.

Tell me how · 23-11-2020 5:27pm

Bambi wrote: »

Connacht is dominated by three teams, Munster by two, Leinster by three. So whats the difference? Other than a certain Leinster team not being worth a tuppenny curse these days

Funding, funding, funding.

Why should one team get so much of it?

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 5:30pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

I don't know what exactly you're looking for here, or what you expect me or anybody else to produce by way of figures.

You asked "any figures for that?" in response to how somebody else asked if it's right that Dublin receives "ten times the funding per registered club player than other counties".

I pointed you towards figures in the John Connellan letter that gives figures per club-registered player for a number of counties. They actually show that the Dublin figures are more than ten times the figures for other counties.

If you've an issue with those figures or how they were calculated, I'm afraid you'll have to take it up with John Connellan, not with me. I hear he's on Twitter these days.....

Development funding is for underage development, it has no basis in a calculation about adult football.

Dublin are among the highest spenders on their senior teams (Dual county including U20) but not every year and not last year.

This is the kind of money being spent on intercounty teams
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-30971511.html

I don't think any county should be spending this amount, I do believe players and coaches should get their expenses but where is the rest going.

The figures are obsecne -
Quote below based on actual factual data not a westmeath footballers letter.

Munster counties increased their spending on team preparations by almost 20% in 2019.

Figures released in recent weeks show the six counties spent a combined total of €7.94m readying their respective inter-county teams during the past year, a jump of €1.24m - or 19% — on the 2018 total of €6.7m.

The same as last year, four of the six counties surpassed the €1m mark.

Tipperary, whose senior and U20 hurlers achieved All-Ireland glory in 2019, show the largest year-on-year increase of any county, their 2019 spend of €1,776,975 representing a massive 54% rise on the 2018 total of €1.15m.

Not alone were Tipperary the biggest spenders in the province, the money pumped into the various Premier hurling and football teams dwarfed the equivalent figure in Mayo (€1.68m), Galway (€1.61m), and Dublin (€1.37m).

dobman88 · 23-11-2020 5:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Give them time. They are getting there.

They've already won a leinster hurling inside the last 10 years. They're already there.

Scoundrel · 23-11-2020 5:38pm

Bambi wrote: »

Connacht is dominated by three teams, Munster by two, Leinster by three. So whats the difference? Other than a certain Leinster team not being worth a tuppenny curse these days

How many more times does this have to be explained? First of all the dominance in Connacht and Munster has nothing to do with the administering authorities i.e the GAA funding the dominating counties ten times more than their competitors giving them a massive advantage and therefore the competition itself is not even starting on a level playing field.

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 5:38pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534

Sportsjoe :pac::pac::pac:

Again underage development funding being used in an adult football discussion.

Uncle Pierre · 23-11-2020 5:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We are in severe danger of rehashing arguments from threads past, but why would you use "games development money per registered player" as a metric? Games development money is spent on, I dunno, developing the game within the county? Surely the vast majority of that money would be spent on trying to encourage new players and better attract young talent away from Soccer etc.?

What are the figures like if you used "per non-GAA playing child that could be potentially welcomed into the GAA"?

Again....I dunno. I was merely replying to a request for figures to show a breakdown of funding on that basis. Apologies for attempting to be helpful.

If you've an issue with using that metric, or if you want a breakdown of figures on some other basis, I'm not the one to argue with.

What I will add though is that I was never convinced of the need for the "Rejuvenate Dublin" project in the first place, considering that they were always the dominant force in Leinster, and second overall on an All-Ireland basis, behind only Kerry.

This thing of "trying to attract talent away from soccer etc." smacks only of insecurity to me. To be honest, it's something I'd have thought would be more associated with small rural areas, with only small populations, and different clubs there competing for the same people. It shouldn't be an issue in the most populous county in the country, where there are plenty of people to keep clubs going in all sports.

Another thing....if "Rejuvenate Dublin" was indeed needed at the time....then what now of Cork hurling?

One of the traditional powerhouses of the game. Yet only two provincial titles in the past 15 years, and no All-Ireland title since 2005. That's a worse record than Dublin had in football when this thing was started in 2003 (only 8 years since an All-Ireland victory, and "only" three provincial titles in ten years).

How do you think giving €17 million to Cork to "rejuvenate" hurling there would go down with anybody else?

Scoundrel · 23-11-2020 5:41pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Sportsjoe :pac::pac::pac:

Again underage development funding being used in an adult football discussion.

Those underage players stay underage forever do they?? Those figures were widely quoted across a range of media outlets at the time come on why don't you try and justify Dublin receiving that obscene level of money compared to everyone else? How is it fair?

mitchelsontour · 23-11-2020 5:42pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Development funding is for underage development, it has no basis in a calculation about adult football.

Dublin are among the highest spenders on their senior teams (Dual county including U20) but not every year and not last year.

This is the kind of money being spent on intercounty teams
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-30971511.html

I don't think any county should be spending this amount, I do believe players and coaches should get their expenses but where is the rest going.

The figures are obsecne -
Quote below based on actual factual data not a westmeath footballers letter.

Munster counties increased their spending on team preparations by almost 20% in 2019.

Figures released in recent weeks show the six counties spent a combined total of €7.94m readying their respective inter-county teams during the past year, a jump of €1.24m - or 19% — on the 2018 total of €6.7m.

The same as last year, four of the six counties surpassed the €1m mark.

Tipperary, whose senior and U20 hurlers achieved All-Ireland glory in 2019, show the largest year-on-year increase of any county, their 2019 spend of €1,776,975 representing a massive 54% rise on the 2018 total of €1.15m.

Not alone were Tipperary the biggest spenders in the province, the money pumped into the various Premier hurling and football teams dwarfed the equivalent figure in Mayo (€1.68m), Galway (€1.61m), and Dublin (€1.37m).

You do realise that Dublins travel expenses are tiny compared to the likes of Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Tipperary etc.

Cilldara_2000 · 23-11-2020 5:43pm

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Munster is a province where one team prioritises football over hurling.
Leinster is a province where at least 7 teams prioritise football over hurling (and that's not including Laois, Offaly and Carlow where I'd say it'd be close to 50/50).

Dublin fans seem to take this discussion very personally which I find strange. I haven't seen anyone who wasn't on the wind up blame Dublin for this. As was mentioned, the GAA ring fenced a huge amount of money in the early to mid 2000s to help give Dublin a boost due to the perceived threat of soccer and rugby in the capital. They did not foresee that Dublin would invest this money with surgical precision to give them the ability to do incredible work at underage and beyond to turn their senior footballers into the team they are today. This is a compliment to the people in Dublin GAA behind this.

However, now the GAA are left with what you see in Leinster football now. Dublin are the first football team to win 10 provincial titles in a row. The only other counties to win 10 in a row were Galway hurlers in Connacht and Antrim hurlers in Ulster. Unsurprisingly, those competitions have ceased to exist due to there being no competition. There is a chance of Leinster football going the same way.

Like it or not, the GAA do have to act. They actually cannot financially hobble Dublin even if they wanted to. Dublin are financially self sufficient at the moment, given the mountains of sponsorship coming their way. They don't need to go through the work of fundraising anywhere near the degree that other counties do because of this and their accounts attest to that. A similar project needs to be implemented like the one for Dublin in all Leinster counties (and I believe that something may have already started in the last couple of years in some counties). Unfortunately, because no other county was allowed to apply for funding like Dublin's for years, this has given Dublin a 10 - 15 year head start. Their dominance now is making it exceptionally difficult for other counties to keep talented younger players interested in committing to the senior football team when there's realistically going to be no reward.

I don't find it strange at all. They know in their hearts that there's a huge asterisk beside the achievements of their team due to the financial doping. They'll never admit it and instead write off all criticism as whinging rather than face the uncomfortable truth that the whole thing is a farce.

Cilldara_2000 · 23-11-2020 5:45pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Sportsjoe :pac::pac::pac:

Again underage development funding being used in an adult football discussion.

Yeah. That's nutse. Everyone knows the best footballers only start playing football at 18.

Uncle Pierre · 23-11-2020 5:50pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Development funding is for underage development, it has no basis in a calculation about adult football.
[/I]

That first bit is true. But please consider the following (and by the way, figures are off the top of my head, purely for illustrative purposes. So don't go asking where I got them from!) -

Say Dublin County Board has €2 million to spend on football in any given year. It reckons its games development programme will cost €1 million. That leaves another million then for the county team.

Then the GAA comes along and says "here's a million quid for your underage programme".

Now Dublin doesn't need to fund that programme from its own pocket after all, and can spend its own money on the county team instead.

Therefore the central development funding for underage football has an immediate and tangible benefit for adult football too.

And that's why it's relevant.

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 5:55pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Those underage players stay underage forever do they?? Those figures were widely quoted across a range of media outlets at the time come on why don't you try and justify Dublin receiving that obscene level of money compared to everyone else? How is it fair?

Of course they don't stay underage.

Dublin are not the only county spending obscene amounts to quote myself previously.
What did Galway get for spending €1.61 million in 2019? Nothing in either code.

Padkir · 23-11-2020 5:56pm

Bambi wrote: »

Connacht is dominated by three teams, Munster by two, Leinster by three. So whats the difference? Other than a certain Leinster team not being worth a tuppenny curse these days

Dominated by 3 teams... Out of 5 in total!

So 60% of the teams in the province are sharing the titles. That would be the equivalent of 6 or 7 teams in Leinster. That's the difference.

Tell me how · 23-11-2020 5:56pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Of course they don't stay underage.

Dublin are not the only county spending obscene amounts to quote myself previously.
What did Galway get for spending €1.61 million in 2019? Nothing in either code.

With that logic, 30 counties get nothing every year.

[Deleted User] · 23-11-2020 5:59pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Funding, funding, funding.

Why should one team get so much of it?

Because there's a much bigger catchment area and potential pool of players that could be convinced to take up the game at grassroots level, thus deserving of investment.

Simple.

While we're on the topic, why is it fair that one county in Connacht receives huge financial investment from private backers while the others get none? Surely, this should be spread around the other counties for the good of the game?

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 6:00pm

mitchelsontour wrote: »

You do realise that Dublins travel expenses are tiny compared to the likes of Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Tipperary etc.

Not tiny but they would be less that Mayo etc.
Maybe the tiny fugure you seen in the article below is for match expenses which is not travel expenses.

It must be great for the country lads to wrack up big mileage expenses payouts when the Dubs get paid nothing for sitting on the M50 going nowhere.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40050098.html#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20Cork%20GAA's%20travel,expenses%20came%20to%20%E2%82%AC33%2C890.

Scoundrel · 23-11-2020 6:00pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Of course they don't stay underage.

Dublin are not the only county spending obscene amounts to quote myself previously.
What did Galway get for spending €1.61 million in 2019? Nothing in either code.

The issue isn't how much a given county spent last year it's that Dublin were given upto 10 times more than anyone else by HQ.

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 6:01pm

Tell me how wrote: »

With that logic, 30 counties get nothing every year.

30 counties didn't spend €1.6 million to win nothing thats the point.

Tell me how · 23-11-2020 6:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

While we're on the topic, why is it fair that one county in Connacht receives huge financial investment from private backers while the others get none? Surely, this should be spread around the other counties for the good of the game?

You answered that yourself. 'Private Backers'.

Similar in Limerick with the efforts and contributions of JP McManus.

Do you see the difference between such private philanthropists and the organisation itself being so favourable towards a single entity?

Scoundrel · 23-11-2020 6:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Because there's a much bigger catchment area and potential pool of players that could be convinced to take up the game at grassroots level, thus deserving of investment.

Simple.

While we're on the topic, why is it fair that one county in Connacht receives huge financial investment from private backers while the others get none? Surely, this should be spread around the other counties for the good of the game?

Indeed it should as should the millions Dublin gets from AIG so because Dublin are the biggest they should be funded the most and **** everyone else?

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 6:12pm

Every county has private backing to some degree.

Kerry and Mayo have some of the biggest stateside funding in the country (no I don't have figures as you'll never find out how much they make)
Mayo also had their UK backer.
Kildare had the supporters club raising over 1 million each year until they fell out with the county board over McGeeney.
Dublin have huge corporate sponsorship deals.

Username Exists. · 23-11-2020 6:16pm

Thats Kerrys centre of excellence paid for

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20335403.html

No centre of excellence in Dublin BTW just a club's pitch for winter training and an old christian brothers pitch in summer.

[Deleted User] · 23-11-2020 6:18pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

That first bit is true. But please consider the following (and by the way, figures are off the top of my head, purely for illustrative purposes. So don't go asking where I got them from!) -

Say Dublin County Board has €2 million to spend on football in any given year. It reckons its games development programme will cost €1 million. That leaves another million then for the county team.

Then the GAA comes along and says "here's a million quid for your underage programme".

Now Dublin doesn't need to fund that programme from its own pocket after all, and can spend its own money on the county team instead.

But that can be applied equally to any other county..........why is it only a problem with Dublin?

Tell me how wrote: »

You answered that yourself. 'Private Backers'.

Similar in Limerick with the efforts and contributions of JP McManus.

Do you see the difference between such private philanthropists and the organisation itself being so favourable towards a single entity?

Scoundrel wrote: »

Indeed it should as should the millions Dublin gets from AIG so because Dublin are the biggest they should be funded the most and **** everyone else?

Two posts in response to mine, directly contradicting each other. Either the money should all be shared equally, or it shouldn't. Are you implying you'd be fine, tell me how, with Jeff Bezos pumping €250 million into Kildare for whatever reason?

The organisation were favourable towards the kids and the development of the underage game. More kids = more investment. The money wasn't spent on jollies for the boys or retreats for the senior team, it was spent reinforcing the spine of GAA in the county and bringing in the young'uns.......somehow trying to turn that around and use it as a stick with which to beat Dublin with is pathetic, especially when so many other county boards have dirtied their bibs over the years with mismanagement of funds.

One of the biggest reasons for the state of their respective counties is that the Dublin board invested funding wisely while the Mayo board squandered it. Why in the name of christ would anybody want to "share the wealth" with a bunch of fools that have proven themselves so untrustworthy? Like a jealous sibling who spent all his money on sweets demanding they be given more because the prudent brother/sister saved theirs and now has more to show for it.

Fann Linn · 23-11-2020 6:24pm

Username Exists. wrote: »

Every county has private backing to some degree.

Kerry and Mayo have some of the biggest stateside funding in the country (no I don't have figures as you'll never find out how much they make)
Mayo also had their UK backer.
Kildare had the supporters club raising over 1 million each year until they fell out with the county board over McGeeney.
Dublin have huge corporate sponsorship deals.

Have the Gardai completed their investigation into the funds gone AWOL from the Galway GAA accounts including all those gate receipts from Salthill concerts?

Scoundrel · 23-11-2020 6:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But that can be applied equally to any other county..........why is it only a problem with Dublin?

Two posts in response to mine, directly contradicting each other. Either the money should all be shared equally, or it shouldn't. Are you implying you'd be fine, tell me how, with Jeff Bezos pumping €250 million into Kildare for whatever reason?

The organisation were favourable towards the kids and the development of the underage game. More kids = more investment. The money wasn't spent on jollies for the boys or retreats for the senior team, it was spent reinforcing the spine of GAA in the county and bringing in the young'uns.......somehow trying to turn that around and use it as a stick with which to beat Dublin with is pathetic, especially when so many other county boards have dirtied their bibs over the years with mismanagement of funds.

One of the biggest reasons for the state of their respective counties is that the Dublin board invested funding wisely while the Mayo board squandered it. Why in the name of christ would anybody want to "share the wealth" with a bunch of fools that have proven themselves so untrustworthy? Like a jealous sibling who spent all his money on sweets demanding they be given more because the prudent brother/sister saved theirs and now has more to show for it.

For the love of Jesus Christ almighty the issue isn't how Dublin have spent their massive amounts of money given to them by the GAA its that they were given far more in the first place and that this money has partly caused the current farce that is the Leinster and indeed All Ireland championships.

It isn't a level playing field and so long as the GAA continues to fund Dublin to the hilt at the expense of others it never will be.

Tell me how · 23-11-2020 6:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Two posts in response to mine, directly contradicting each other. Either the money should all be shared equally, or it shouldn't. The organisation were favourable towards the kids and the development of the underage game. More kids = more investment. The money wasn't spent on jollies for the boys or retreats for the senior team, it was spent building the spine of GAA in the county and bringing in the young'uns.......somehow trying to turn that around and use it as a stick with which to beat Dublin with is pathetic, especially when so many other county boards have dirtied their bibs over the years with mismanagement of funds.

Posts of different views are not contradictions, they are just that, different views.
What do you think?

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the biggest reasons for the state of their respective counties is that the Dublin board invested funding wisely while the Mayo board squandered it. Why in the name of christ would anybody want to "share the wealth" with a bunch of fools that have proven themselves so untrustworthy? Like a jealous sibling who spent all his money on sweets demanding they be given more because the prudent brother/sister saved theirs and now has more to show for it.

Mayo have been one of the consistently top football teams of the last 30 years.
No small achievement given the rural nature of the county and the exodus of players it experiences as lads have to travel for college and work.

It is a credit to them the amount of All Irelands they have competed in over that period and when they do win one I expect the majority of the country will take pleasure in them doing so.

[Deleted User] · 23-11-2020 6:27pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

I don't know what exactly you're looking for here, or what you expect me or anybody else to produce by way of figures.

You asked "any figures for that?" in response to how somebody else asked if it's right that Dublin receives "ten times the funding per registered club player than other counties".

I pointed you towards figures in the John Connellan letter that gives figures per club-registered player for a number of counties. They actually show that the Dublin figures are more than ten times the figures for other counties.

If you've an issue with those figures or how they were calculated, I'm afraid you'll have to take it up with John Connellan, not with me. I hear he's on Twitter these days.....

1. I never asked for anything
2. You are the spokesperson for these figures, you said yourself you pointed "me" (again, not me) towards these figures
3. If those figures do not stand up to scrutiny, you cannot then say "suck it, not my figures take it up with Connellan". You either engage in the conversation and make counterpoints to the arguments raised or else accede that they are not fit for purpose

I mean, if I took a photo of some graffiti in the jacks in Coppers that says Leitrim are backed to the hilt by the GAA to the tune of €75 million...........would it be acceptable for me to say, "hey, that's not my data so don't shoot the messenger, If you've an issue with the figures then track down the author".

IF you are using these figures to make a point* then you either defend them from criticism or accept that they do not stand up to scrutiny.

* and you are making a point, here, despite your protestations to the contrary.

[Deleted User] · 23-11-2020 6:31pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Posts of different views are not contradictions, they are just that, different views.
What do you think?

The two posts are indicative of the hypocrisy that I am pointing out. Either all the money should be shared out equally, or all counties are free to raise their own funds (including from HQ). You were both arguing opposite sides of that argument for the same purpose....i.e. contradicting each other.

Tell me how wrote: »

Mayo have been one of the consistently top football teams of the last 30 years.
No small achievement given the rural nature of the county and the exodus of players it experiences as lads have to travel for college and work.

It is a credit to them the amount of All Irelands they have competed in over that period and when they do win one I expect the majority of the country will take pleasure in them doing so.

And I agree, but that is despite the actions of the Mayo County board, not because of them. But that's another discussion.

I note that you refused to answer the question put to you directly.

Uncle Pierre · 23-11-2020 6:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But that can be applied equally to any other county..........why is it only a problem with Dublin?

It's not quite "can be applied equally"....more a case of could be applied equally, if the level of funding for the other counties was proportionate to the funding that Dublin enjoys.

Anyway, this is growing tiresome. I normally don't get involved in these discussions relating to Dublin GAA and funding, precisely because they normally just degenerate into the same tired old hackneyed debates. Only got involved here because of the refreshing nature of that post from the other Dublin person back on the first page, and thought that once, some people might be able to have a reasoned and mature conversation about things. But this one has slipped into just being the same as all the others.

For what it's worth, I have a certain admiration for the Dubs and what they've achieved with what they've been given. It just doesn't rest easy with me that they were given and continue to enjoy certain advantages in the first place.

The Leinster Championship is dead.

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