Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

LC "reform" to match the new JC "reform"?

  • 15-11-2020 12:01am
    #1
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭


    Having recently seen a sample new JC paper for my subject I'm much more concerned at how dumbed down the new "reformed" JC is, and I just don't want to imagine how dumbed down any new LC will be.

    It would be inspiring to think any reformed LC would be academically more challenging, but given how academically emaciated the new JC is, it seems like wishful thinking.

    The gulf between both standards is unsustainable - kids are going to drown in the leap into current 5th-year academic standards after this new JC academic standard.

    I think we all should be very worried about how waffly and vacuous any matching new LC will have to be to complement the new waffly JC. I fear our voices will be lost, especially while we still have two unions for the government to implement divide and conquer strategies.

    Does anybody know what the Dept. is planning to do to reduce the academic gulf between the LC standard and the new JC?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭amacca


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Does anybody know what the Dept. is planning to do to reduce the academic gulf between the LC standard and the new JC?

    I don't know but tbh I think you have answered your own question in the rest of your post

    The only feasible solution will be to "reform" the LC and dilute it similarly as well. I think the new JC is pile of horse****/reform for the sake of reform or reform because the boys at the top have to do or be seen to do something to justify their existence.


  • #3
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,103 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    'Money, Money, Money' as the Swedish philosophers said.

    The new common level JC papers should be interesting in a world where a sizeable number of children struggled with the OL paper and at the same time another large group rattled off almost perfect scripts at HL.


  • #4
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    When I went to college in 2001, the college was seriously concerned about the jump from LC standard to college work (particularly maths -I did engineering).
    Went back to do a Masters in 2012 and they had a dedicated maths centre in the college, basically a grinds resource centre with staff and resources to bring first years up to college level standards, as so many were struggling.It seems this is common in many of the biggest colleges now - the one I attended is one of the biggest in the country (if not the biggest).
    I dread to think what state of an education my own kids are going to get by the time they make it to secondary school.


  • #5
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    I have noticed that students in the main are less willing to actually put in the hours required to attain LC standard as we used to know it, you only have to look at recent marking schemes to see how front loaded the marks are (in many instances) just to bring up the numbers able to pass the paper. I don’t want to see the LC dumbed down to match up to the new Jc (which is a total joke) but I think it’s inevitable


  • #6
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Does anybody know what the Dept. is planning to do to reduce the academic gulf between the LC standard and the new JC?
    You know the answer to that. You've already given it yourself.

    Genuine question to anyone who can answer it: has it ever happened that they've "reformed" any secondary school subject, either are junior or senior level, where they actually increased the amount of material and expected a higher standard of the students? If so, when?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    The reformed JC gaeilge has significantly added material, particularly around the literature side of things. In the old course, you could technically do one poem, one short story, focus on theme and character for both and you'd be fine. Now however they want kids to do a drama, a novel, 2short stories and 6 poems or songs.

    Not one colleague who teaches Irish, nor student or parent, asked for this loading up of literature. Shows how reform takes **** all feedback into account, someone decides at the top and then it's PR to make it stick. The optional oral for jc used to encourage kids to stick with the language and they enjoyed being able to speak it. It's patently clear that they didn't want to pay for examiners for orals, and thus it was removed.

    I fear that in the future the oral and practical exams for the lc will be removed, anything that costs extra will have to go in place of self assessment or other cheap pieces of paperwork to verify work.


  • #8
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,103 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Genuine question to anyone who can answer it: has it ever happened that they've "reformed" any secondary school subject, either are junior or senior level, where they actually increased the amount of material and expected a higher standard of the students? If so, when?

    About 18 years ago, I was involved in the second phase of the 'rebalancing' committees of the NCCA where we spent years revising and updating a syllabus only for our work to be binned. We had added to the syllabus as well as removing some of the out of date sections. We had allowed for the use of new technologies and a presumed assessment task (externally moderated).

    I won't name the subject as 'walls have ears' but it was a minority subject with an integrated and practical approach. This year is/was its last year and almost every single school involved in it bemoans its loss, as there is no replacement for it.

    There was some very good work done by the NCCA, by people actually involved in education, but then the bean counters got their hands on things and threw it all out.

    Here's the interim report of the first phase of subjects: https://ncca.ie/media/1804/junior_cycle_review_interim_report_on_the_rebalancing_of_subject_syllabuses.pdf (.pdf)


  • #9
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    The reformed JC gaeilge has significantly added material, particularly around the literature side of things. In the old course, you could technically do one poem, one short story, focus on theme and character for both and you'd be fine. Now however they want kids to do a drama, a novel, 2short stories and 6 poems or songs.

    Not one colleague who teaches Irish, nor student or parent, asked for this loading up of literature. Shows how reform takes **** all feedback into account, someone decides at the top and then it's PR to make it stick. The optional oral for jc used to encourage kids to stick with the language and they enjoyed being able to speak it. It's patently clear that they didn't want to pay for examiners for orals, and thus it was removed.

    I fear that in the future the oral and practical exams for the lc will be removed, anything that costs extra will have to go in place of self assessment or other cheap pieces of paperwork to verify work.
    I’d heard that alright (though it doesn’t apply to the whole thing, does it? It’s different, depending on whether you’re in a Gaelcholáiste or not, I thought?) but that’s a separate issue at play - make Irish as hated as possible, even for students with good Irish, so there’s little resistance when it’s made optional.


  • #10
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I’d heard that alright (though it doesn’t apply to the whole thing, does it? It’s different, depending on whether you’re in a Gaelcholáiste or not, I thought?) but that’s a separate issue at play - make Irish as hated as possible, even for students with good Irish, so there’s little resistance when it’s made optional.

    The same among of literature to be covered by both gaelscoileanna and English speaking, just different (ie more difficult) pieces for the gaelscoileanna.

    But you're right, FG wanted Irish as optional, this is the way they go about it alright. It's not a fun course to teach at all.


  • #11
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭Treppen


    From the 'teachers are terrible says chief inspector' article in the other thread.
    The scramble to design a calculated grades system after the Leaving Cert exam was cancelled in May due to Covid-19, had shown “the vulnerability of relying on one exam,” Mr Hislop said.

    “If we had other modules of assessment ... over the course of the two year period, you wouldn’t have been relying on a single three hour exam, which we had to cancel,” he said. The experience was “an important lesson for looking at the review of senior cycle in the years to come,” he said.

    It would appear that the NCCA have very little input into Curriculum and Assessment. They're obstructed as to what to write and research into education can take a running jump.

    https://www.fiannafail.ie/investigation-needed-into-bullying-complaints-at-ncca-byrne/


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    Pity they wouldn't apply the same logic (as that in that article's comment) to the Health System.:mad:


    We don't appear to be scrambling to fix the vulnerabilities in that particular area. Despite the fact that it is really the one that is wide open to future events such as this.


  • #13
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Treppen wrote: »
    From the 'teachers are terrible says chief inspector' article in the other thread.



    It would appear that the NCCA have very little input into Curriculum and Assessment. They're obstructed as to what to write and research into education can take a running jump.

    https://www.fiannafail.ie/investigation-needed-into-bullying-complaints-at-ncca-byrne/

    Yep. A new syllabus was introduced in one of my subjects last year. I learned that it wasn't the 12-14 people on the NCCA committee for that subject that put the syllabus together as you might think, but one woman who works in private industry in this area. She wrote the syllabus (and presumably got paid to do it), the NCCA went through it for wording, and she moved on to another project before it even got into schools. There are a couple of things in it that aren't factually correct, one experiment that makes no sense in doing whatsoever, and one experiment that involves plants which realistically can be only sourced from one plant breeder in America (and possibly are genetically modified so banned here). I shit you not. So I'm a bit confused as to what the role of the NCCA is now.


  • #14
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,103 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    So I'm a bit confused as to what the role of the NCCA is now.


    They seem to have been sidetracked completely.
    The 'rebalancing' never really happened and suddenly it was all about 'reform'.

    I know a lot of what they did (do?) was airy fairy thinktank stuff, but at least it came from an informed educational background, with the objective of improving the system and childrens' experiences of it.


  • #15
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    The most important reform principle is that it should cost less than it does now. This explains everything about education reform in Ireland.


  • #16
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,197 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    DoE: we have successfully destroyed the JC, now time to do the same to the LC.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • #17
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The most important reform principle is that it should cost less than it does now. This explains everything about education reform in Ireland.

    Yes and another reform principle is that it must generate as much extra work for the classroom teacher as possible, preferably pointless paperwork & meetings


  • #18
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭2011abc


    New JC Hons Maths .'Mary has 28 currants and wants to bake cookies which have 4 currants each how many can she bake ?' HONOURS!?


  • #19
    fed_u
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭fed_u


    The gap has really widened between the two. Third level is already a considerable jump before they go messing with it. I would love if some element could be done in 5th year and 20% or so awarded! I liked the idea of a CBA for my subjects but when they only get 10% for their reflection task it highlighted how wishy washy it was going to be. The sample papers were released and they get to write a letter in their Geography exam..


  • #20
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    2011abc wrote: »
    New JC Hons Maths .'Mary has 28 currants and wants to bake cookies which have 4 currants each how many can she bake ?' HONOURS!?

    It worries me that I don't know whether this is a joke or not.


  • #21
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    It worries me that I don't know whether this is a joke or not.




    https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


    Q2a


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


      2011abc wrote: »
      https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


      Q2a

      Holy crap. Didn't that sort of stuff used to be done and dusted by about 4th class primary?


    • #23
      2011abc
      Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭2011abc


      Grolschevik wrote: »
      Holy crap. Didn't that sort of stuff used to be done and dusted by about 4th class primary?




      It still is I think!


    • #24
      amacca
      Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭amacca


      2011abc wrote: »
      https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


      Q2a

      My gf reckons they arent allowed teach them anything at primary given the way theyve been coming in the last couple of years

      Imagine what 3rd level will be saying about the students they have coming in the gates a couple of years when LC reform goes through and if its similar to new JC.......no morevthan what they probably already say.


    • #25
      rainbowtrout
      Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


      fed_u wrote: »
      The gap has really widened between the two. Third level is already a considerable jump before they go messing with it. I would love if some element could be done in 5th year and 20% or so awarded! I liked the idea of a CBA for my subjects but when they only get 10% for their reflection task it highlighted how wishy washy it was going to be. The sample papers were released and they get to write a letter in their Geography exam..

      WTF??????:eek::eek::eek::eek:


    • #26
      rainbowtrout
      Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


      amacca wrote: »
      My gf reckons they arent allowed teach them anything at primary given the way theyve been coming in the last couple of years

      Imagine what 3rd level will be saying about the students they have coming in the gates a couple of years when LC reform goes through and if its similar to new JC.......no morevthan what they probably already say.

      Ya I do wonder what exactly is going on at primary level that we are still teaching this stuff at second level. I'm not blaming primary teachers, they are delivering the course given to them, but what the fcuk is going on?


    • #27
      rainbowtrout
      Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


      2011abc wrote: »
      https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


      Q2a

      Lads, just looked up an old JC paper to check that I wasn't going mad.

      This is from 2001.

      Junior Certs would have a **** attack if they saw this. And it follows on from a whinge I had in my physics class today about logs.


      Logs used to be on the JC maths course

      https://www.examinations.ie/tmp/1605733536_9401367.pdf


      Also remember, calculators were not allowed for JC maths back then.


    • #28
      2011abc
      Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭2011abc


      rainbowtrout wrote: »
      Ya I do wonder what exactly is going on at primary level that we are still teaching this stuff at second level. I'm not blaming primary teachers, they are delivering the course given to them, but what the fcuk is going on?




      Im a secondary teacher and feel its only fair to counterargue that many average to talented primary kids learn little or nothing new from us before JC


    • #29
      rainbowtrout
      Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


      2011abc wrote: »
      Im a secondary teacher and feel its only fair to counterargue that many average to talented primary kids learn little or nothing new from us before JC

      I'd fully agree. I've said it on here several times, I reckon a decent 5th/6th class student could sit the JC science paper in its current format and pass it without ever having sat in a science class in secondary school.

      The history teacher was showing me the new history paper at school today. Again another joke.


    • #30
      Blondini
      Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭Blondini


      I want you all to stand in order of your birthday, stick post-its to a flip chart, and look at the learning space through the lens of wellbeing.

      Oh, and tick some boxes and make sure nobody "fails" (dirty word).


    • Advertisement
    • #31
      rainbowtrout
      Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


      Blondini wrote: »
      I want you all to stand in order of your birthday, stick post-its to a flip chart, and look at the learning space through the lens of wellbeing.

      Oh, and tick some boxes and make sure nobody "fails" (dirty word).

      Don't forget the ghost walk. :mad:


    Advertisement