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Bald Tyre - Fixed Penalty Notice.

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245

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    #32
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    I d appeal first to the fcpn office. Would the tyre centre owner give a statement to you ? That would support your case. So would the NCT office.

    They might decide that if it were to go to Court you have evidence and should be given the benefit of the doubt i.e. your not just chancing your arm so it may be in the best interest of the state to cancel it instead of having a Garda in court all day for a 2 point fine .

    If it's not cancelled I d go to court myself anyway without paying a solicitor. That way your only out the days holiday you have to take and make your own arguments - some of the points raised above are a good starting point


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    #33
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,193 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Have any of you ever been prosecuted for a RTA offence and been in the District Court?

    This is not a capital murder charge

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #34
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    What you would need is an sworn statement from the tyre shop employee that he saw the tyre the following day and it was in his opinion ok. As well that he did not replace it. Then you produce your NCT stating the tyre passed the NCT.

    The sworn statement from the tyre shop employee must be in front of a peace commissioner. You could take this to the guard in question before the case along with the NCT they may withdraw the prosecution. If the judge is unwilling to accept that he may request the tyre shop employee come to court to give the evidence in court. Getting the tyre shop employee to give the statement may be hard

    And where is the evidence that the type that was Garda seen and the one that was taken to the shop/NCT was the same?


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    #35
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,146 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    I d appeal first to the fcpn office. Would the tyre centre owner give a statement to you ? That would support your case. So would the NCT office.

    They might decide that if it were to go to Court you have evidence and should be given the benefit of the doubt i.e. your not just chancing your arm so it may be in the best interest of the state to cancel it instead of having a Garda in court all day for a 2 point fine .

    If it's not cancelled I d go to court myself anyway without paying a solicitor. That way your only out the days holiday you have to take and make your own arguments - some of the points raised above are a good starting point

    all that for an 80 euro fine and two points? two points that will have no effect on their own. bearing in mind that if you lose the points are doubled and that will definitely have an effect.


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    #36
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,710 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    grayzer75 wrote: »
    A few questions you could ask if you go the court route:

    Did the garda in question measure the actual thread depth? e.g. thread depth caliper
    Was the equipment used calibrated to a known standard? e.g. calibrated to ISO13385
    Was the calibration carried out in a certified lab? e.g. certified to ISO17025
    Was the garda trained in the correct use of the equipment? e.g. training records
    Did the garda record the measurement of the thread depth and the tyre which was measured?
    Was there any photographic evidence taken showing the defect in the tyre?

    While these are all reasonable questions in theory, if you start that up in a District Court list for minor road traffic offences, you'll quickly find out how far removed court room dramas are from the reality of busy court lists.

    In one sense, it's fodder for an appeal but lots of circumstances being discussed in this thread are fodder for an appeal. You don't really want to have to go so far as an appeal when, as has been pointed out, this kind of criminal defence is at your own expense.

    Certainly as alluded to above if I was the barrister getting briefed in this, I'd probably gamble on it and maybe add in that if there's a conviction, I'll look after the appeal for no additional charge but again, it's a matter of principle and wouldn't be most people's guiding hand.


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    #37
    grayzer75
    Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭grayzer75


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    all that for an 80 euro fine and two points? two points that will have no effect on their own. bearing in mind that if you lose the points are doubled and that will definitely have an effect.

    By the same token, if the points were really unwarranted then whats to say it won't happen again in six months time and then the OP has four points on their licence.


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    #38
    vandriver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭vandriver


    As this is a legal discussion forum,I think you should get jail time for calling it tyre thread.


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    #39
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,146 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    grayzer75 wrote: »
    By the same token, if the points were really unwarranted then whats to say it won't happen again in six months time and then the OP has four points on their licence.

    you would have to be really unlucky to get done a second time for a defective tyre that wasn't defective. you would have to be really unlucky to even come into contact with another garda in that timeframe. i cant remember the last time i was stopped by a guard on the road. it must be years.


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    #40
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,146 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    vandriver wrote: »
    As this is a legal discussion forum,I think you should get jail time for calling it tyre thread.

    why would that be? tyre is the normal usage outside the US.


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    #41
    vandriver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭vandriver


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    why would that be? tyre is the normal usage outside the US.
    Tis the other word dear boy


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    #42
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,146 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    vandriver wrote: »
    Tis the other word dear boy

    i dont think so

    https://writingexplained.org/tyre-vs-tire-difference

    https://grammarist.com/spelling/tire-tyre

    all of our road traffic legislation uses tyre not tire


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    #43
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    He’s talking about thread versus tread; although it’s a stupid thing to be pedantic about because the meaning is perfectly clear from the context.


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    #44
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    all that for an 80 euro fine and two points? two points that will have no effect on their own. bearing in mind that if you lose the points are doubled and that will definitely have an effect.

    And if he's caught doing 60 in a 50 he ll have 5 points when he only committed three points worth of offences.

    What the OP has described is a Garda blatantly lying. If it was me I d be frustrated and annoyed and definitely taking my chances in court.

    At that point I would not be paying a solicitor to defend me but doing it myself and questioning the guard myself .

    It ll cost me the days holiday .

    If it's lost i d take my four points and wouldn't appeal further , though if I had more money I certainly would..


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    #45
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,146 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BrianBoru00 wrote: »
    And if he's caught doing 60 in a 50 he ll have 5 points when he only committed three points worth of offences.

    What the OP has described is a Garda blatantly lying. If it was me I d be frustrated and annoyed and definitely taking my chances in court.

    At that point I would not be paying a solicitor to defend me but doing it myself and questioning the guard myself .

    It ll cost me the days holiday .

    If it's lost i d take my four points and wouldn't appeal further , though if I had more money I certainly would..

    we only have the OPs word that the tyre isn't bald. a bit much to say that the garda is blatantly lying.


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    #46
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ronivek wrote: »
    He’s talking about thread versus tread; although it’s a stupid thing to be pedantic about because the meaning is perfectly clear from the context.

    You need to tread softly on this tread about tire thread dept.


    :D


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    #47
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You need to tread softly on this tread about tire thread dept.
    :D

    Did you accidentally get one right?


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    #48
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    in my granted limited experience* every body who turns up and challenges a fine they tend to win.
    So turn up with your version of events I predict you win , is this worth a minimum half day of work for you , only you can decide.

    *I challenged a breaking a red light penalty , I turned up with video evidence of the light sequence and as soon as I challenged the Garda dropped the charge ,I never got to actually show my evidence (missing my Perry mason moment ). While i waited there for my case to be called every challenge was immediately charges dropped by the Garda.
    I inferred they are there to get through as many cases as possible and none were worth fighting. The vast majority of cases while i was there no defendant turned up and judgement was issued .


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    #49
    amadangomor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭amadangomor


    Amazing that Gardai can do this to people with no evidence to back up their assertions.

    Surely in this day and age they should use a camera and measuring equipment to prove something like this.

    As we've seen from what Maurice McCabe went through the word of a Guard is to be doubted and not taken as gospel.


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    #50
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    we only have the OPs word that the tyre isn't bald. a bit much to say that the garda is blatantly lying.

    I'm not saying the Garda is blatantly lying.
    The OP is.

    Isn't the OP s word the only thing we have to go on for all queries on a message board ?


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    #51
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Just a thought, surely if there's a trail of evidence, garage, nct, is it not worth fighting, I'm sure the garage visited immediately after the incident would be willing to confirm tyre was fine (maybe I'm being too ambitious), point being, if you go to district court present the facts, I doubt a reasonable judge would not listen, look at the facts and judge in ops favour, if a solicitor is engaged (wise) and case won, are costs not awarded? Yes its a gamble but I think on merit, its worth fighting if evidence is obtainable. I hope we've not come to a stage we're a pedantic Garda, who clearly looked and couldn't find anything else can just dictate, your tyre is bald and that's it, no argument, no presumption of innocence etc etc

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #52
    Uncle Pierre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    if a solicitor is engaged (wise) and case won, are costs not awarded?

    Costs wouldn't generally be awarded for a successful defence to a prosecution in the District Court.


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    #53
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Uncle Pierre wrote: »
    Costs wouldn't generally be awarded for a successful defence to a prosecution in the District Court.

    Thanks, I wasn't entirely sure if costs awarded at district court level

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #54
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    what is to say the op didnt change the tyre before going to the tyre shop? if, for example, the bald tyre was the front left they could swap the front left with a good tyre from elsewhere on the car and get the tyre shop to check what is now the front left and confirm it is OK.
    Mellor wrote: »
    And where is the evidence that the type that was Garda seen and the one that was taken to the shop/NCT was the same?

    Yes that may be questioned in court. However car went throught NCT a while later. The tyre shop employee is only giving his opinion the NCT backs his opinion. The prosecuter a Garda Superintendent usually may question the OP under oath. The Guards may ask for a postponement to investigate the sworn statements. They may also just drop the case and investigate afterwards.

    The Garda is not lying he is giving his opinion, in a way unless measured it the same as a layman's opinion. The tyre shop employee is a trained professional for the want of a better term. The NCT validates his opinion. TBH I approach the proscuting Garda before the case and show him the evidence. He may continue with it but may drop it there and then. You still have to wait for the case to be called.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #55
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Yes that may be questioned in court. However car went throught NCT a while later. The tyre shop employee is only giving his opinion the NCT backs his opinion. The prosecuter a Garda Superintendent usually may question the OP under oath. The Guards may ask for a postponement to investigate the sworn statements. They may also just drop the case and investigate afterwards.

    The Garda is not lying he is giving his opinion, in a way unless measured it the same as a layman's opinion. The tyre shop employee is a trained professional for the want of a better term. The NCT validates his opinion. TBH I approach the proscuting Garda before the case and show him the evidence. He may continue with it but may drop it there and then. You still have to wait for the case to be called.

    Have to agree, the prosecution seems a little over the top in my humble opinion and certainly warrants (excuse the pun) fighting /appealing it, particularly given the time frames involved

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #56
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Have to agree, the prosecution seems a little over the top in my humble opinion and certainly warrants (excuse the pun) fighting /appealing it, particularly given the time frames involved

    A solicitor will defend the action in court for 100-150 euro you just need to collect the evidence. It a case is 100-150 euro minus the 80 in a di e worth avoiding the the two penalty points.

    However managing to get a sworn statement from the tyre shop employee is the hard part

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #57
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Yes that may be questioned in court. However car went throught NCT a while later.

    The tyre shop employee is a trained professional for the want of a better term. The NCT validates his opinion.
    I think you are misunderstanding.
    Passing the NCT proves the type on the car at that time wasn’t bald.
    It doesn’t prove the tyre the Guard inspected on the road wasn’t bald.

    OP could have changed the wheel between Garda fine him and going to the Tyre place/NCT.


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    #58
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Mellor wrote: »
    I think you are misunderstanding.
    Passing the NCT proves the type on the car at that time wasn’t bald.
    It doesn’t prove the tyre the Guard inspected on the road wasn’t bald.

    OP could have changed the wheel between Garda fine him and going to the Tyre place/NCT.

    Yes he could however if he is willing to swear under oath and that tyres are the same the judge will take it into account unless Garda swears he physically measured them

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #59
    Boxcar_Willie
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Boxcar_Willie


    Thanks for the replies .

    I'm going to see if I can get a solicitor to take it on at a modest fee .

    I should have pointed out that at the roadside stop the Garda said
    " That tyre is down to the wire and you'll be getting a fine for it "
    It was a dark & wet night and didn't get a proper look at it until the following day, then took it to the tyre centre where they removed a small piece of road debris from the inner side of the tyre . It wasn't "down to the wire " and there was no advisory in the NCT which would indicate there was at least 3mm thread on the tyre .


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    #60
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    You should get Maurice McCabe back from retirement to fight this case. It's a disgrace. 2 penalty points??? Id rather give my soul


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    #61
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Yes he could however if he is willing to swear under oath and that tyres are the same the judge will take it into account unless Garda swears he physically measured them
    Swearing isn’t proof though.


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