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CS tyrannical boss
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27-02-2021 11:48am#1Recently started a new civil service job in a unit that is under resourced and over worked. Everyone on the team works late every day. People have admitted to me that they work on the weekends to stay on top of things because there is no time during the working day to do work that needs dedicated uninterrupted time. I too have been doing hours at weekends to keep afloat.
After the first few weeks of imposter syndrome and thinking it was me, I realise this is all a top down effect from the boss. They are a self-described 'type A' personality. Everything is urgent. They seem to want to keep taking on more work/projects so that they can have new things to showcase to management (which means more work for us). No concept of how long a task might take and gets frustrated when people push back or admit they haven't had a chance to get to something yet. While I haven't had any run ins with them (yet), I have heard tell of outbursts and fights. Not a very personable character, barks orders, and because they are a workaholic, everyone around them is expected to be too.
I have engaged with CSEAS and will continue to do so. I have been prescribed medication for anxiety and sleep disruption. Doctor suggested I take stress leave, but I felt I couldn't (HR recently gave me the "we advise not to take sick leave during probation because it looks bad" spiel and it plays in my head).
I really liked being a civil servant up until this point. Now I feel trapped by the fact that I am on probation and feel I have no way out other than to revert to a previous grade, which feels unfair to me having worked so hard to get promoted. I am a hard worker but this is an unrealistic level of expectation on the whole team. I also feel a duty of care to the other staff and I want to make changes for the benefit of the whole unit. Anyone I have spoken to has tried to effect change in the past, it hasn't worked and they've given up. Honestly they're all exhausted and broken, it's sad to see.
I am planning to outline my concerns to the boss on the level of work, the working hours, the stress and the pace of the work and keep a note of it. Who knows how that will go down, but I can't just sit back and say nothing. I am not sure what my options are in terms of speaking with HR. I get the impression from others that HR are aware that this person has form for this and has had issues with staff retention in the past. CSEAS are nice but I don't think it's their remit to advise on work-place matters but rather help you on a personal level to deal with stress.
I suppose working remotely makes the whole saga feel even more isolating. I only know the people that I have to know - I literally don't have time to 'make friends' in work by arranging coffee chats etc. I don't know a friendly face in HR other than the person I met on day one. Perhaps rightly or wrongly, I worry that by raising an issue with HR, it will be turned back around on me as not being fit for purpose. Such is the insecurity of being a probationer.
Would anyone have advice on handling from a CS perspective? A year's probation seems a long time to simply 'knuckle down and get through' when every day is as stressful as this.
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any advice.0
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typeAnotOK wrote: »Recently started a new civil service job in a unit that is under resourced and over worked. Everyone on the team works late every day. People have admitted to me that they work on the weekends to stay on top of things because there is no time during the working day to do work that needs dedicated uninterrupted time. I too have been doing hours at weekends to keep afloat.
After the first few weeks of imposter syndrome and thinking it was me, I realise this is all a top down effect from the boss. They are a self-described 'type A' personality. Everything is urgent. They seem to want to keep taking on more work/projects so that they can have new things to showcase to management (which means more work for us). No concept of how long a task might take and gets frustrated when people push back or admit they haven't had a chance to get to something yet. While I haven't had any run ins with them (yet), I have heard tell of outbursts and fights. Not a very personable character, barks orders, and because they are a workaholic, everyone around them is expected to be too.
I have engaged with CSEAS and will continue to do so. I have been prescribed medication for anxiety and sleep disruption. Doctor suggested I take stress leave, but I felt I couldn't (HR recently gave me the "we advise not to take sick leave during probation because it looks bad" spiel and it plays in my head).
I really liked being a civil servant up until this point. Now I feel trapped by the fact that I am on probation and feel I have no way out other than to revert to a previous grade, which feels unfair to me having worked so hard to get promoted. I am a hard worker but this is an unrealistic level of expectation on the whole team. I also feel a duty of care to the other staff and I want to make changes for the benefit of the whole unit. Anyone I have spoken to has tried to effect change in the past, it hasn't worked and they've given up. Honestly they're all exhausted and broken, it's sad to see.
I am planning to outline my concerns to the boss on the level of work, the working hours, the stress and the pace of the work and keep a note of it. Who knows how that will go down, but I can't just sit back and say nothing. I am not sure what my options are in terms of speaking with HR. I get the impression from others that HR are aware that this person has form for this and has had issues with staff retention in the past. CSEAS are nice but I don't think it's their remit to advise on work-place matters but rather help you on a personal level to deal with stress.
I suppose working remotely makes the whole saga feel even more isolating. I only know the people that I have to know - I literally don't have time to 'make friends' in work by arranging coffee chats etc. I don't know a friendly face in HR other than the person I met on day one. Perhaps rightly or wrongly, I worry that by raising an issue with HR, it will be turned back around on me as not being fit for purpose. Such is the insecurity of being a probationer.
Would anyone have advice on handling from a CS perspective? A year's probation seems a long time to simply 'knuckle down and get through' when every day is as stressful as this.
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any advice.
I would document everything if any hostile situations arise due to work not being fulfilled. Don't run yourself into the ground trying to get everything done, if it can't reasonably be done in that time frame then prioritise the most important tasks. Try to get past the probation period before raising any issues with HR, but do keep a log of everything.
Whatever you do, do not quit or revert to a previous grade. My brother had a similar experience in the CS and ended up quitting, when he should have made HR sort it out. He was so stressed he just couldn't cope anymore, and it was due to a toxic work environment, one where people were constantly on stress leave. It is on HR to sort this out, engage and ensure they follow correct steps. If multiple people have issues in this department it is clear the problem isn't you. Try to stay calm, you are a good employee, and it is the manager that is not.0 -
Here's my advice- forget about putting other people into 'type a' or any other projected profiles you've read about and forget about anyone else in the team. Youre a new starter and really dont strengthen any case by doing so
do what the second post details instead- focus on what you need to get covered, what you are currently able to cover, where the gap is and what can be done about it. If you have concerns then talk to the manager about it in good faith, get plenty in writing in setting out concerns and in what the suggestions are back to support you in training and advice and ensure that your efforts to use this support towards the teams goals is also very clear
Very, very rare that anyone doing that and doing their best will not be ok0 -
Do the best work that you can within your contracted hours.
Leave the rest for your manager to sort out.0 -
A above. Don't ng extra hours and working weekends is simply making the price born worse. Just do what you can within your 7:24 and then whatever doesn't get done is outside of that.
Also a few things to note, once you are 9months through probation you are basically finished it. If you reached the 6 month performance review and it is a positive one then it is difficult the get rid of someone after that.0 -
typeAnotOK wrote: »....I am planning to outline my concerns to the boss ...
This is pointless. Countless others have tried and failed.
Some of this will come with experience.
Triage your workload, sort it in to most urgent, least important.
Push anything you can as far out as it can go.
Look at ways to speed tasks up.
1 mins saved by 100 times is lot of time.
When you save time, don't tell the boss.
Make it look like it still takes the same time.0 -
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The CS is well-known for the quality of its management.typeAnotOK wrote: »Recently started a new civil service job in a unit that is under resourced and over worked. Everyone on the team works late every day. People have admitted to me that they work on the weekends to stay on top of things because there is no time during the working day to do work that needs dedicated uninterrupted time. I too have been doing hours at weekends to keep afloat.
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Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any advice.
That said, if I was you I'd look at my contract of employment, and see how much overtime you are obliged to do.
Under no circumstances should you do more. You should never work at the weekend, unless it is in the contract. You should never bring work home with you.
I had a colleague once who did what you are doing, and they ended up leaving the job owing to the stress.
Are you in a trade union? most of them are fairly useless, but they will give you a basic standing. Join a union, and tell them the problem - but don't expect them to provide a solution.
The CS is full of toxic situations, I have been told that most people who are out sick are out due to stress.
Do your 7:24 as someone else said, no overtime - nothing is so urgent that it can't wait till tomorrow. If it is, let the boss do it.
What you could do is ask HR what the going rate is for overtime, whether there is a budget for it in your section, and when it kicks in. Then pass that info on to your boss, and tell him/her you'll be keeping an eye on the clock, and will s/he approve any overtime you do. You might find out that much of your work spontaneously combusts if you use this approach.
Oh, and one other thing - talk to your boss about Work/Life Balance, and make sure s/he is aware that you have a wild social life/full family life/partner who is never available to look after the childer/jealous boy/girlfriend (or whatever suits - you get the idea) which doesn't allow you to spend much time doing overtime anyway. Which s/he is unlikely to have a budget for in any case.
Find a solution to your own situation. If you do so, you will be in a much better position to help out others, maybe by passing on hints.
As I understand it, Work/Life Balance is a big buzzword in the CS. Try using it to your benefit.0 -
I would definitely bring up work/life balance, too; where I work, if you have no kids, then you're expected to bear a heavier load than those with families, but when I mentioned this, I definitely saw a shift in attitude. I don't think it was even happening on purpose, just a default thinking process engrained in the unit!0
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Interesting, where I've worked (private and public) it usually its people without kids wanting to do a ton of extra hours to get ahead. Not because they were asked to. Usually this is often resented as people with other commitments, (might not be kids, might be other issues) can't compete with people doing that. Its like people who work a ton of hours unpaid. Its a double edged sword.
Any place or team with a broken life/work balance, I've ever worked in or with, its has always been pointless bringing it up with the manager or team lead. Its usually habit and cultural and as its more work for no money, they would be crazy to change it unless forced to. You aren't going to force change that, if the organization, are happy to ignore it.
Nothing stopping you trying. There's always the chance it will work. I've never seen such an approach be received positively though.
There are lots of tactic you can use to reduce the amount of time things take, or at least reduce the amount of time you have to spend on them. Some are a little devious. But hey if someone doesn't value my time, I'll return the favour.0 -
This is pointless. Countless others have tried and failed.
Some of this will come with experience.
Triage your workload, sort it in to most urgent, least important.
Push anything you can as far out as it can go.
Look at ways to speed tasks up.
1 mins saved by 100 times is lot of time.
When you save time, don't tell the boss.
Make it look like it still takes the same time.
It will probably fail as the boss will be yet again unwilling to activate a solution... but by flagging it you are not failing yourself you are covering your arse, flag it and document it... as well as their response(s)... shows you’ve done your bit, tried to engage, ball is in their court if things go tits up.0 -
Keep working your hours including extra hrs. Keep a note of any extra hours worked over a period of 1 months. Once you have a log of your total hours that are extra approach your manager and ask how these are paid in overtime or time off in lieu. You may find your entitled to time back when it suits. If the manager says your not entitled to overtime or lieu it brings the conversation about extra work to a head. T0
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You can only do much as you can. Do what is expected and let the manager look after the rest
Sometimes you have to let things fail in order to draw attention to it.
If the boss of your boss is any good they will ask what happened and if he blames you , then he should be spoken to.
Also, don’t be surprised what others see, you may think that they are doing nothing, but they may be waiting for someone to step up to confirm their impressions and force them to take action at a higher level.The narrower a man’s mind, the broader his statements.
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Deep Thought wrote: »....
If the boss of your boss is any good they will ask what happened and if he blames you , then he should be spoken to. ...
The op said...
. ...I get the impression from others that HR are aware that this person has form for this and has had issues with staff retention in the past. ...0 -
Sorry to hear what you are going through - especially while on probation and in such isolating circumstances. I had a similar experience for 8 years in the CS, with a manager I now recognise was a high-functioning sociopath, his prime objective being to pave the way for his own rise up the career ladder. My workload was heavy, relentless, stressful and overwhelming, but he wasn't prepared to discuss it (and the impact it was having on me) beyond 'It's your job, you're paid to do it'. As you say, I think the CSEAS are really just there to help you get through the difficult times using coping strategies, rather than to resolve the root of the problem, and a union would probably advise you to just work your contract hours and no more. I would not advocate discussing any family matters or domestic commitments in a work context to try and send some kind of a message across to your manager, as it could be used against you at a later date. As others here have said, I would document every single issue, and every hour of overtime worked - you might be surprised how much it builds up. The first person you should report a grievance to is usually the boss, so you are doing the right thing by bringing up the stress, hours and overtime issues with him/her. I wouldn't see any harm in contacting Personnel or HR with your issues either - what is there to lose. They may be able to advise on the best/official approach.
Also report or query issues that are in breach of health and safety, or departmental policy, or the law - this kind of tyrannical, driven managerial style can often result in short cuts being taken in the workplace which don't pay in the long term, or are downright unsafe or contrary to best practice. If after talking to your boss nothing changes, you can raise a grievance, in line with CS policy & procedure. Best to do this before your stress levels, and the whole situation, escalates (possibly wait until your promotional period is over before going this route).
Unfortunately, deciding not to fall into step with this manager and his expectations of frenetic work and overtime, may ultimately impact on your promotion prospects if as a result you get sidelined for certain tasks or projects, but then again it may not if you are a savvy, skilled, hardworking and efficient worker anyway.0 -
I dunno about reporting the manager at all. I would definitely try to stick it out and wait until after your probationary period.
As other posters said, cut back on after hours work. Before you start on an item, take five minutes to outline projected timelines and give your manager a good bit of notice with an explanation ("x takes y amount of time to complete but I also have to do A which takes B amount of time") if you're going to miss a deadline.
Do you have an induction program you're doing? Did your manager outline your target goals and did you write your learning needs? I don't know if that's in every area of the civil service but at 3 months, you'll be reviewing that and you can say why your goals can't be met. You need adequate time to complete assigned tasks.
You're not the only one feeling the way you are, but you are the most junior member of the team and it shouldn't fall to you to say there's a problem. If you have a trusted colleague (I know, unrealistic given you've never really met them), someone you can confide in or even just gauge their reaction when you tell them you're finding the assignments very time-consuming.
Best of luck, op. I hope you manage to stick with it and that things start to improve. It'll be worth it in a year's time when your contract is secure.0 -
Hi everyone, OP here. Thanks for taking the time to reply - interesting to read so many view points.
A couple of things to clarify
-I only mentioned the personality type as I recognise it as a key driver of everyone's stress.
-I am not a junior member of staff - not sure what I said that led people to assume that. It is a middle management position - and as such OT does not apply. Contract says 'no less than 43.5hrs per week'. On ave I do 48 - 52 hrs (which is a entire extra day now that I think about it!)
The only things that have changed since my original post is that I have more insight into other peoples' levels of stress and the detrimental effects on their mental health and work life balance. People are given no support or training and some have expressed feeling like they are set up to fail as the demands are unrealistic (arbitrary deadlines plucked from the air with no thought etc). Stress leave is a very real possibility in the next few weeks and months.
I also have more insight into the boss' opinion on the matter - they listen to people express how stressed out and swamped they are and say 'I know, everyone is, there is no solution'. More projects and responsibilities seem to magically become the responsibility of the unit when we are already at capacity. I push back, I say that the team is at capacity and we cannot deliver on anything else - I am ignored.
I have never been in a unit where the PO directly gives orders to COs and EOs instead of allowing APs and HEOs to manage a team. Everyone is being micromanaged. I would rather be the buffer between the boss and the team but I am not given the opportunity to do so. Team meetings are 'the PO show' where they speak at us for an hour, getting worked up at times and arguing with anyone who dares to speak or object. No interaction with this person is ever calm, they are extremely highly strung and seem to thrive on this type frenetic energy.
I suppose my query now is - how do you best deal with HR? I have never had to engage with CS HR on issues like this. Is it possible to engage first on an informal/confidential basis to set out the concerns for the staff before I engage on the matter officially? It is clear that this boss is terrified of anyone speaking with HR, they have made that perfectly clear. But I need to consider all of my options here.
I am determined to tackle this problem. People like this just continue to go unchecked and damage other people's careers and confidence otherwise. Thanks again for the advice.0 -
Not trying to be glib but it sounds like the charge of the light brigade to me.
I'll be curious to hear how you get on. Personally I just manoeuvre myself as away as possible from such people and their influence. For me is been faster more effective way of dealing with them.
It would be like a military attack choosing to go around defences rather then through them head on.0 -
HR will not be tackling a PO. Looking for them to do so is a folly. The PO can speak to whomever they want to in a unit during a meeting. They're senior management. They can run a unit/meeting how they see fit. You may believe it's not the correct way but here's the thing. It's not your unit. It's theirs and their responsibility at the end of the day.
This isn't meant to sound harsh but it is fact. Tryi g to change this is a waste of time. As a PO, the only person who will be reprimanding them is an a/sec, and that's not going to happen. I wouldn't go to HR on this either unless you're looking to revert. Instead just prioritise your work and keep note of the amount of time taken to complete tasks. I'd also refuse overtime. Go in, put in your hours, get your job done within the timeframe and make note of what you didn't get done and what was prioritised instead of it. At the end of the day, just be able to defend yourself in your pmds.0 -
Disclaimer: I haven't worked in the civil service.
Do what you're being paid to do and don't do anything extra. Your job description and your contract of employment are what matters here. Of course, doing the bare minimum may not look good for future promotions etc. but the alternative is to stress yourself out or make yourself miserable.
I would echo what another poster said about distancing yourself from people like your boss. A relative of mine had a boss he got on with personally, but professionally the guy would promise the sun/moon/stars and never deliver, ultimately he was an anchor around my relatives neck and kept him from progressing (whether deliberately or not I don't know). My relative eventually left the company due to the toxic work relationship there and was unable to distance himself from the manager whilst remaining within the company.
Working extra hours without extra pay may be done for one or more of the following reasons:
*you're over-worked or the company are short-staffed
*you're doing voluntary extra work (because you want to, or you want a promotion etc.)
*you're incompetent at your job and can't get your workload completed in the allowed time0 -
A few thoughts OP,
The PO is effectively lord and master of his unit. Complain all you want, but you will get nowhere. It would take at least an ASEC to do something. In almost every circumstance they will not, in your case they especially won't because they probably think the PO is great, and you are just someone on probation. You are essentially saying the PO is incompetent, which would not ring true with their experience.
From your last post I get a bit of an impression that you are out to save everyone now - you are the new person on probation, it is not your responsibility. The only people you are responsible for is your direct reports, if any. In smaller units it is fairly normal for the PO to interact directly with more junior staff, in fact this is encouraged in some quarters as to ignore them and only talk to their managers is considered "old school" and gradist. COs and EOs may like the direct interaction with the PO, it is certainly good in terms of experience.
As for the overall situation, it depends on the work involved. If it is essential work, especially during covid, I would say to suck it up and get on with things, there are plenty of divisions really under the cosh doing way more than an extra hour or 90 mins a day. To be honest OP I was amazed when I read that after you gone on about stress and overwork, as I was expecting you to say that you are doing way way more, especially during a time of national crisis.
Honestly, an extra hour to 90 mins a day in current circumstances is not much at all, and tbh I can't see people either being too impressed, or taking seriously, someone on probation saying what you are, especially if you are an AP. An AP going to HR moaning that they have to work an extra hour a day to get their work done, in current circumstances? They may be polite enough not to laugh in your face but they will laugh.
If you are a HEO, and really want to do something, just log your day to the half hour, quit at the day end and when the AP asks why you don't have it done, show them your spreadsheet and ask what you should drop out to finish that task. You will not be liked for this approach, but it will probably work, your AP will end up having to do it, or it will be piled onto someone else who has the resilience to manage an extra hour a day.
If you are an AP, honestly I would say that is tough sh!t, get on with things. You could delegate more to your staff if you can, and keep them working late when you clock out. Again you will be hated. Otherwise you could get your team to do timesheets so you have evidence to back up saying no to more work. A key lesson to learn about the mentality of managers is that no matter the amount of moaning, as long as the task is done at the end of the day there is zero problem. This is especially the case when you want more staff, unless you have work not being completed you basically have no evidence that you are understaffed. Pick a project that you are given a timeline for, constantly flag how it wont be done, and then only half do it.
As for probation, once your nine month review is done you are home, unless you take sick leave. TBH I can't see any manager failing someone during covid unless they are especially terrible, as the staff member can just roll out the covid mental health card and working from home to explain away most things, especially if union is involved.0 -
"I am determined to tackle this problem. People like this just continue to go unchecked and damage other people's careers and confidence otherwise. Thanks again for the advice."
OP I admire your tenacity, but my experience is that HR will only act on formal complaints so while it is nice to offload your grievances informally, it doesn't get you anywhere. A formal complaint would need to be well-structured, showing that actions were taken which went against policy.
And yes, unfortunately people like this do continue to go unchecked and damage people's careers and confidence. It's exactly that tyrannical and driven behaviour which helps them to achieve, and maintain, their position of power in the first place.0 -
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Sonny Mushy Earache wrote: »A few thoughts OP,
The PO is effectively lord and master of his unit. Complain all you want, but you will get nowhere. It would take at least an ASEC to do something. In almost every circumstance they will not, in your case they especially won't because they probably think the PO is great, and you are just someone on probation. You are essentially saying the PO is incompetent, which would not ring true with their experience.
From your last post I get a bit of an impression that you are out to save everyone now - you are the new person on probation, it is not your responsibility. The only people you are responsible for is your direct reports, if any. In smaller units it is fairly normal for the PO to interact directly with more junior staff, in fact this is encouraged in some quarters as to ignore them and only talk to their managers is considered "old school" and gradist. COs and EOs may like the direct interaction with the PO, it is certainly good in terms of experience.
As for the overall situation, it depends on the work involved. If it is essential work, especially during covid, I would say to suck it up and get on with things, there are plenty of divisions really under the cosh doing way more than an extra hour or 90 mins a day. To be honest OP I was amazed when I read that after you gone on about stress and overwork, as I was expecting you to say that you are doing way way more, especially during a time of national crisis.
Honestly, an extra hour to 90 mins a day in current circumstances is not much at all, and tbh I can't see people either being too impressed, or taking seriously, someone on probation saying what you are, especially if you are an AP. An AP going to HR moaning that they have to work an extra hour a day to get their work done, in current circumstances? They may be polite enough not to laugh in your face but they will laugh.
If you are a HEO, and really want to do something, just log your day to the half hour, quit at the day end and when the AP asks why you don't have it done, show them your spreadsheet and ask what you should drop out to finish that task. You will not be liked for this approach, but it will probably work, your AP will end up having to do it, or it will be piled onto someone else who has the resilience to manage an extra hour a day.
If you are an AP, honestly I would say that is tough sh!t, get on with things. You could delegate more to your staff if you can, and keep them working late when you clock out. Again you will be hated. Otherwise you could get your team to do timesheets so you have evidence to back up saying no to more work. A key lesson to learn about the mentality of managers is that no matter the amount of moaning, as long as the task is done at the end of the day there is zero problem. This is especially the case when you want more staff, unless you have work not being completed you basically have no evidence that you are understaffed. Pick a project that you are given a timeline for, constantly flag how it wont be done, and then only half do it.
As for probation, once your nine month review is done you are home, unless you take sick leave. TBH I can't see any manager failing someone during covid unless they are especially terrible, as the staff member can just roll out the covid mental health card and working from home to explain away most things, especially if union is involved.
Sadly, an awful lot of this rings true. I too wouldn't advise going to HR.
I wonder though; if you are a team lead (sorry, I'm not au fait with CS grades etc) could you not approach the PO (?) and say that members of your team have approached you regarding the team meetings as they are concerned about the format of the meetings? You understand that the PO is probably not aware but some of the more junior staff can feel quite intimidated by outbursts etc. If there are concerns about stress levels/work levels, not only for yourself but also for your team, you really need to look to see if there is anything that could improve the situation and make sure you report up the line to at least say you've recognised the issue . Show the hours everyone is working in relation to FTE. It sounds like this is a situation where you will need to present the answers
I don't envy you. Good luck.0 -
Sounds like a good idea in theory, but I can almost guarantee the PO will bring that up in the meeting and ask if anyone has a problem. No one will say anything, and OP will look like a fool, or worse, a liar.kathleen37 wrote: »Sadly, an awful lot of this rings true. I too wouldn't advise going to HR.
I wonder though; if you are a team lead (sorry, I'm not au fait with CS grades etc) could you not approach the PO (?) and say that members of your team have approached you regarding the team meetings as they are concerned about the format of the meetings? You understand that the PO is probably not aware but some of the more junior staff can feel quite intimidated by outbursts etc. If there are concerns about stress levels/work levels, not only for yourself but also for your team, you really need to look to see if there is anything that could improve the situation and make sure you report up the line to at least say you've recognised the issue . Show the hours everyone is working in relation to FTE. It sounds like this is a situation where you will need to present the answers
I don't envy you. Good luck.
If I am perfectly honest, I do not think the OP will be able to point out anything concrete that the PO has done wrong, that there is not an answer for, take the following:
Talks to COs and EOs in meetings? This is arguably a good thing, certainly not a bad thing. PO is entitled to do it.
The division has taken on too much work - the PO can't exactly refuse if "asked" by the ASEC. OP has been very lucky to not have been somewhere chronically understaffed before now.
"Arbitrary deadlines" - who says? Good luck proving it. I bet that a lot of stuff gets done within these deadlines.
"Micromanaging" - also known as the PO rolling up his sleeves, getting involved, and helping out. They can do this if they want.
"PO dominates meetings" - so what? PO can run them however they want, and are entitled to (and perhaps should depending on circumstances) have it as a "PO show".
PO is a workaholic and highly strung - says who? and so what? This is a personal criticism of the PO. PO can just say that they are a hard worker and are under pressure.
PO has had "arguments" but not with OP - who says this is true? And so what? "Robust debate" happens all the time. Nothing to do with the OP, who should not listen to gossip.
"Gets worked up at times" - who doesn't? Is OP saying the PO is bullying people? Serious charge to make.
"Having to work an average of 60 to 90 mins extra a day." This is routine in some divisions. How does OP think that all various schemes get paid on time, PQs answered, policies drafted, emergencies responded to etc. etc. If OP is an AP they will be laughed at. This is especially the case during covid were everyone is under more pressure with wfh. My advice would be to ask to be put on flexi, after probation. APs are not supposed to be, but it can be done, "officially" or otherwise. If OP is a HEO then they are getting credit for these extra hours and can take 1.5 additional days a month off.
If OP complains the reaction will be a combination of "yeah, that's how it is", thinking that he/she just does not like the PO and that OP is just not able for the challenges of their promotion. Thats not to say that OPs office is a nice place to work, it does not sound like it, but it is literally just the way it is in some places. TBH if I were the PO in this instance I would be planning to get rid of the OP (not by failing probation, but just bounce them somewhere else asap), and if I were the OP I would be planning to try and get a move. The job doesn't suit you OP, and you clearly have contempt for and resent your boss. This situation is good for no one.
Finally I would say, do not revert. You will never get promoted again. Suck it up for the year, then do whatever it takes to get transferred, but be warned, there are far worse places! (and far better)0 -
As a person in the CS I have found this thread an interesting read.
The area/department you are in sounds like a bit of a basket case. It doesn't sound like it will change....I have had similar (ish) experience in a CS department...PO came from the private sector has a hideous temper and micromanaged big time. I lasted 11 months (always kept on the right side of them..I got a great reference) before getting another role in a different department. Get your probation completed (if you haven't already) get all the training you can, bulk out the CV. Make sure all your tasks are in your PMDs, plenty of secondment opportunities at the minute.
I would tend to echo the opinions on HR here....they will not be a great help imo.0 -
Tbh I would tend to agree with the above. A PO can run a unit how they see fit and talk who they want to at a meeting, but it doesn't mean they should be totally closed to feedback, or constructive suggestions. If they cross the line it is still unacceptable, the same as it would be for any employee.HR will not be tackling a PO. Looking for them to do so is a folly. The PO can speak to whomever they want to in a unit during a meeting. They're senior management. They can run a unit/meeting how they see fit. You may believe it's not the correct way but here's the thing. It's not your unit. It's theirs and their responsibility at the end of the day.
This isn't meant to sound harsh but it is fact. Tryi g to change this is a waste of time. As a PO, the only person who will be reprimanding them is an a/sec, and that's not going to happen. I wouldn't go to HR on this either unless you're looking to revert. Instead just prioritise your work and keep note of the amount of time taken to complete tasks. I'd also refuse overtime. Go in, put in your hours, get your job done within the timeframe and make note of what you didn't get done and what was prioritised instead of it. At the end of the day, just be able to defend yourself in your pmds.
I will say I had a one to one meeting with a PO (not my direct boss) a while back where the person was extremely rude and tried to basically lump an error on me (I am an AP - the error was actually with them...and I had the paper trail to prove it). I discussed with my direct PO and we had a meeting to clear the air, they were genuinely horrified I was upset etc, issue has now been resolved. I wouldn't be going down the HR route either, always best to discuss directly.0 -
Sonny Mushy Earache wrote: »If OP is a HEO then they are getting credit for these extra hours and can take 1.5 additional days a month off.
Just on this point - not at the moment. The ability to accrue hours and taking of flexi leave was suspended for anyone working from home last April. They won't get any credit or time off for the extra hours worked.0 -
Everyone in the unit needs to stop doing unpaid work.Unless overtime is granted in advance ,then it isn't going to be paid retrospectively in the CS.
Do your 7.24 and clock out ,make sure you log your work and make sure your manager knows you won't be doing unpaid work from now on.
If everyone is working extra time on a regular basis then nothing will change.Why would it?
Im guessing you are an AP/AO as you mentioned no overtime in your grade and then PO is your direct manager?
I've seen it before but you and all your colleagues really need to stand up and stop doing all the extra unpaid work.A full section working extra hours/days is just crazy without getting reimbursed.
Other than that keep the head down ,do your work as best you can and get the probation over with.0 -
Its not that easy in the civil service.
Not doing the "unpaid" work could mean someone else doesn't get their social welfare claim processed, or their tax rebate processed or their invoice paid, licence issued, or their passport renewed... ... you get what I mean.
Unfortunately, I have experience of a PO like this and in the end, they got promoted (to A/Sec) of the backs of the work done by the unit but not before they had burned through half a dozen staff members who ended up on sick leave for work related stress first.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Its not that easy in the civil service.
Not doing the "unpaid" work could mean someone else doesn't get their social welfare claim processed, or their tax rebate processed or their invoice paid, licence issued, or their passport renewed... ... you get what I mean.
Unfortunately, I have experience of a PO like this and in the end, they got promoted (to A/Sec) of the backs of the work done by the unit but not before they had burned through half a dozen staff members who ended up on sick leave for work related stress first.
It is that easy ,if the resources aren't there prioritise the most important work and anything else should be reported to management as not done for the reasons outlined.
If those unpaid hours are being done regularly by a full unit nothing is going to change.Its absolutely crazy for staff to be working for free on weekends to keep their heads above water.0 -
It's simply not that easy.
Don't complete your assigned tasks, end up with a couple of "not achieved" on your PMDS reviews, and thats your increment at risk (if you're still climbing an incremental scale). Most people simply won't risk that, as it will also risk their own future chances of progression.
Unions and HR are toothless, and paid overtime is also pretty much unheard of in the CS.
Unfortunately, in a situation like this often the only solution is usually to transfer out. Or make yourself a problem, and the PO will move you on soon enough, probably also with a poor annual review.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »It's simply not that easy.
Don't complete your assigned tasks, end up with a couple of "not achieved" on your PMDS reviews, and thats your increment at risk (if you're still climbing an incremental scale). Most people simply won't risk that, as it will also risk their own future chances of progression.
Unions and HR are toothless, and paid overtime is also pretty much unheard of in the CS.
Unfortunately, in a situation like this often the only solution is transfer out. Or make yourself a problem, and the PO will move you on soon enough send you on your way, probably also with a poor annual review.
PMDS isn't that set in stone and there is a big difference in one person supposedly not achieving their tasks and a whole unit.
Also why agree to assigned tasks on your PMDS if you know they can't be done,it's not a case of just agreeing to whatever you are told ,you complete it each year.
Also make sure you get it all down why you haven't met any goals and make sure you get your reviews during the year.Manager can't ignore that and then give you a not achieved at the end of year review,they should be actively try to help you .
I'd not be letting PMDS be a barrier to standing up for myself.0
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