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21-01-2020, 14:13   #61
sodacat11
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Spidersweb - keep it civil please. There's no need to personalise things
What issues? If two players want a draw then what's to stop them agreeing one? It is nothing like fixing a horse race or a boxer taking a dive.
There are a lot of Leinster league games agreed drawn every season without a single move being played or the players even turning up. Do you think that the players and teams involved should be disqualified?
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21-01-2020, 19:15   #62
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Originally Posted by sodacat11 View Post
What issues? If two players want a draw then what's to stop them agreeing one? It is nothing like fixing a horse race or a boxer taking a dive.
There are a lot of Leinster league games agreed drawn every season without a single move being played or the players even turning up. Do you think that the players and teams involved should be disqualified?
From the FIDE Laws of Chess taking effect from 1 January 2018:
"5.2.3 The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game , provided both players have made at least one move. This immediately ends the game."

There's nothing (or at least nothing in 5.2.3) to stop players agreeing in advance to agree a draw. But it seems they actually have to show up and agree a draw.

Either player has the right to change his mind once the game starts, so is there really a problem? All that matters is the agreement at the board.

Whatever has happened in the Leinster leagues in the past in terms of fictitious games, it might be time to retire the practice now, given the latest rules. Especially if the games are going to be rated.
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21-01-2020, 21:23   #63
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Players "CAN" and frequently do offer draws before games regardless of what the FIDE rule book says.
I
really don't see the difference between a prearranged draw and players offering and accepting draws after 10 or 12 moves or in positions where all three results are still possible. If a draw suits both parties then a draw it shall be. Draws are a part of chess, I don't like artificial efforts to try and eliminate them any more than I like rapid and blitz play offs..
Well you are right of course, I think Carlsen even created a minor fuss on Norwegian TV when he was asked about a game Mamedyarov-Karjakin which everybody was raving about and ended in perpetual check, Carlsen took one look at the position and smiled intimating they had obviously pre-arranged a draw.

I realise it does goes on, still doesnt mean I have to like it!
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21-01-2020, 22:41   #64
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I realise it does goes on, still doesnt mean I have to like it!

Or accept it on principle or condone it. It is wrong, just depending on the context not a big deal- at all. Not a good example to set though is it? Think of the kids Joedryan, afteral they are our future. Save the next generation and be like Thunderberg!
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22-01-2020, 01:16   #65
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Keep it civil you suggest? Are you kidding?
Picking a fight with a forum moderator is ... not likely to produce any results you want.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly with Sodacat on this one. It happens, there's shag all we can do about it, and in my experience measures like the 30 move minimum game are as bad as the problem they slightly impede.

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Whatever has happened in the Leinster leagues in the past in terms of fictitious games, it might be time to retire the practice now, given the latest rules. Especially if the games are going to be rated.
It's never been legal. Those games have always been rated. The only way to stop it from happening is to insist all matches be played in front of an independent observer or arbiter, which is probably coming with the multi-million euro TV deal any day now.
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22-01-2020, 04:01   #66
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Picking a fight with a forum moderator is ... not likely to produce any results you want.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly with Sodacat on this one. It happens, there's shag all we can do about it, and in my experience measures like the 30 move minimum game are as bad as the problem they slightly impede.


It's never been legal. Those games have always been rated. The only way to stop it from happening is to insist all matches be played in front of an independent observer or arbiter, which is probably coming with the multi-million euro TV deal any day now.
Eh, well, it has never been "legal", but the only rules violated were the LCU's, and maybe the ICU's (for rating purposes). If they don't mind, why should anybody else?

It's a different matter if FIDE is involved. Fiddling ratings is harder to explain to a wider audience. Better to mark the games down as unplayed (as was done for one game in the recent New Year GM norm event).

While we're on the topic, I heard a related story that happened in the Armstrong a while back (a few decades but not really very long ago). Team A and team B were both threatened with relegation, and were drawn against each other in the last round. (In the days before the last round was played on one day in the same place.) The captains calculated that a 4-4 draw would leave them both safe, and 8 draws were duly entered, without any pieces being moved (saving one team a long journey). Alas! Someone miscalculated, one of the teams actually tied for relegation, then lost the playoff match.
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22-01-2020, 11:44   #67
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Originally Posted by mikhail View Post
Picking a fight with a forum moderator is ... not likely to produce any results you want.

For what it's worth, I'm mostly with Sodacat on this one. It happens, there's shag all we can do about it, and in my experience measures like the 30 move minimum game are as bad as the problem they slightly impede.


It's never been legal. Those games have always been rated. The only way to stop it from happening is to insist all matches be played in front of an independent observer or arbiter, which is probably coming with the multi-million euro TV deal any day now.
Carbon copy score sheets of the game signed by both players, its not rocket science and its required to be submitted to FIDE for most FIDE events as I understand.

Also, all players of both teams should turn up on the day, and the captains sign off that they have done so and played the match.

Last edited by Joedryan; 22-01-2020 at 11:59.
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22-01-2020, 17:30   #68
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The rating system gets distorted in lots of ways. Fictitious games and prearranged draws get rated.Players throw games. I lost to an 1100 player once who had a RP of 2150 for the tournament and another time to a 1500 kid who became an I.M a couple of years later. Then again I have beaten people with quite high FIDE ratings but low domestic ones.
If a player's phone goes off he loses rating points even if he is completely winning the game. Some players avoid tournaments where they might meet lower rated players thereby keeping their own rating artificially high. Even at the top of world chess the same players play each other ad nauseam in elite closed events when if they entered more opens like Gibraltar or the Isle of Man they would struggle big time to keep their over inflated ratings. There is no foolproof rating system so probably the one we have is as good as it gets despite all the flaws.
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22-01-2020, 22:52   #69
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The rating system gets distorted in lots of ways. Fictitious games and prearranged draws get rated.Players throw games. I lost to an 1100 player once who had a RP of 2150 for the tournament and another time to a 1500 kid who became an I.M a couple of years later. Then again I have beaten people with quite high FIDE ratings but low domestic ones.
If a player's phone goes off he loses rating points even if he is completely winning the game. Some players avoid tournaments where they might meet lower rated players thereby keeping their own rating artificially high. Even at the top of world chess the same players play each other ad nauseam in elite closed events when if they entered more opens like Gibraltar or the Isle of Man they would struggle big time to keep their over inflated ratings. There is no foolproof rating system so probably the one we have is as good as it gets despite all the flaws.
I get the feeling these days a lot of players are far more worried about their rating instead of trying to play some decent games.

Perhaps its time to abolish the rating system and go back to the good old days of Capablanca and those, what a joy it must have been not to worry about rating and just play.
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22-01-2020, 23:21   #70
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I get the feeling these days a lot of players are far more worried about their rating instead of trying to play some decent games.
.
Very true, people are obsessed with their ratings, one only has to look at some of the dull openings that they play.
A few chess players have told me that they don't enjoy the actual games at all, it is only afterwards if they have had a decent result that they get any satisfaction. I find this hard to understand, I love the playing of the game regardless of the result.
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22-01-2020, 23:22   #71
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Can you sad guys either migrate to a different thread or, even better a different server. This thtead is for over 50 and over 65

Last edited by ishidaogo; 23-01-2020 at 16:12.
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22-01-2020, 23:24   #72
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Can you sad guys either migrate to a different thread or, even better a different server. This thtesd is for over 50 and over 65
If the slight change of subject upsets you so much perhaps it is you who is the sad one.
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22-01-2020, 23:35   #73
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Can you sad guys either migrate to a different thread or, even better a different server. This thtesd is for over 50 and over 65
Are you a mod? If not then please desist, talk is good.
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