Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

08-12-2019 1:14am

Professor Genius wrote: »

The big question is what sort of long term damage has Schmidt inflicted on the Irish rugby players.

Long term damage being bringing the expectation of Irish rugby to its greatest heights?

Shefwedfan · 08-12-2019 8:43am

whatawaster wrote: »

I think it's getting to the stage for me where Murray is no longer automatic first choice for Ireland. He is not just off form, he has been playing at a lower level for 12-18 months.

Past achievements carry weight, I accept that, but over the last 12 months I think his level has dropped significantly, to the extent that I don't think it's clear who is the best SH between:

McGrath
JGP
Cooney
Murray
Marmion
Blade

In fact, if Farrell picked any 3 from that above list, I'd find it hard to argue with him. They are all good players.

Based on current form it would have to be
Cooney
Blade
JGP

JGP could jump Blade based on performances this/next weekend

awec · 08-12-2019 2:20pm

Cooney is the best 9 in Ireland at the current time, and must surely get a proper go in February.

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2019 2:30pm

JGP's arrival will put big pressure on them all. He's really developed into a top 9

Dubinusa · 08-12-2019 4:38pm

Cooney is playing great. He should be in pole position. Murray shouldn't be close to the squad at this stage.

Interested Observer · 08-12-2019 4:47pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Cooney is playing great. He should be in pole position. Murray shouldn't be close to the squad at this stage.

I'm not sure there's any point in having an expectation Murray won't make the squad, I'd be absolutely shocked if he didn't and even if everyone keeps playing exactly as they are, if I were a betting man I'd bet on him to start. But I do agree he's not the best 9 we have now and his middling form has been going on for a long time now.

Injuries certainly haven't helped and I really think his untouchable status has to have made some contribution too. It was irrelevant how he played for Munster or Ireland, he was playing every big game and he was playing for 70+ minutes. Farrell has a job to do to get a bit of competition going in the position. Cooney has been overlooked for way too long.

troyzer · 08-12-2019 5:45pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm not sure there's any point in having an expectation Murray won't make the squad, I'd be absolutely shocked if he didn't and even if everyone keeps playing exactly as they are, if I were a betting man I'd bet on him to start. But I do agree he's not the best 9 we have now and his middling form has been going on for a long time now.

Injuries certainly haven't helped and I really think his untouchable status has to have made some contribution too. It was irrelevant how he played for Munster or Ireland, he was playing every big game and he was playing for 70+ minutes. Farrell has a job to do to get a bit of competition going in the position. Cooney has been overlooked for way too long.

Murray hasn't been good since June 2018.

That's 18 months ago. I'm all in favour of giving your guys time to play into form but 18 months is taking the piss, even giving him time for the injury.

Former Former · 08-12-2019 6:57pm

Murray and Cooney are in two different conversations though. It was never Murray keeping Cooney out of the squad.

sydthebeat · 08-12-2019 7:08pm

Realistically I see the 9 shirt as open as the 2 shirt currently.. And it's unfortunate that that's the case.

It really depends on how farrell wants to play, but if it's higher tempo away from contact there are currently better options playing than Murray

Rattlehead_ie · 08-12-2019 7:08pm

I am not wanting to start more of the Schmidt back and forth here but its interesting to see that, certainly at 9, The players who weren't AS involved with the Irish setup in the last 4 yrs are performing better at the moment.
While I defo think Cooney and Blade should be brought in and heavily used if during the 6N if their performances continue. I think we could see Murray displaced, but coming back into form over the next few months.

jacothelad · 08-12-2019 7:51pm

Where does Marmion fit in here? It seems to me that he has been sidelined from the conversation without due regard.

Dubinusa · 08-12-2019 7:56pm

I think Marmion is hurt. He is proven and if his form returns, he should be in with a shout.

Interested Observer · 08-12-2019 8:08pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Marmion is hurt. He is proven and if his form returns, he should be in with a shout.

He's started in wins against England and NZ so yeah we know he can do it. Dunno what has happened him since the NZ win though. Injury/loss of form/lost confidence?

whatawaster · 08-12-2019 9:35pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Where does Marmion fit in here? It seems to me that he has been sidelined from the conversation without due regard.

I don't think there is a lot between our 6 best SH's at the moment.

I'd agree Cooney probably in the best form at the moment, followed by JGP and Blade. Murray probably in the worst form.

Shefwedfan · 08-12-2019 9:45pm

Marmion needs to start playing.....

Can't call for Murray to get dropped and pick the form player and then bring Marmion into the discussion

At the moment based on form he is at the bottom because he hasn't played enough....

I would love Casey/McCarthy at Munster to start pushing for inclusion as well

theVersatile · 08-12-2019 10:42pm

I feel like Cooney gets slightly overrated due to his goalkicking prowess - he absolutely butchered a two on one yesterday that we wouldn't hear the end of it Murray had done the same. Still admittedly the form 9 in the country.

Thought Murray did fine yesterday considering the storm. Not back to his best but definitely not as awful as some would have you think. He's well able to play quickly when he wants to, take a look at some of those lineout launches from the first half. He only hesitates when there's repositioning to be done (a third forward working around to join the receiving pod which only has two) or when Itoje was lying all over his ball. Even in the warm up you can see he's spraying the ball around like mad - though his game around the fringes gas definitely regressed. Doesn't have the same threat to 10 and 20 at the rucks that the likes of Cooney have.

Niallof9 · 09-12-2019 11:51am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the point I’m making, yes he made mistakes but the witch hunt by some posters is an insult to all the great work he done

Its not a witch hunt. Peter O'Reilly's article yesterday was very interesting. Talk of Schmidt saying he was "wounded" by Best's comments.

It's hilarious that certain posters cannot face reality.

People getting pasted for stuff that has subsequently come out in the wash.

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:08pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Its not a witch hunt. Peter O'Reilly's article yesterday was very interesting. Talk of Schmidt saying he was "wounded" by Best's comments.

It's hilarious that certain posters cannot face reality.

People getting pasted for stuff that has subsequently come out in the wash.

you didnt post in the rugby forum from June 2017 until August 2019

Basically the best period that irish rugby ever had.

So because you didnt not post in this period, and did not call out any of the issues that you subsequently claim to have been calling out all the time....

That means you have absolutely no credibility as a critic of Schmidt, as you were not brave enough to call out your issues when we were flying high.

Professor Genius · 09-12-2019 12:13pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you didnt post in the rugby forum from June 2017 until August 2019

Basically the best period that irish rugby ever had.

So because you didnt not post in this period, and did not call out any of the issues that you subsequently claim to have been calling out all the time....

That means you have absolutely no credibility as a critic of Schmidt, as you were not brave enough to call out your issues when we were flying high.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the Schmidt fanbois go to to defend the indefensible

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:19pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the Schmidt fanbois go to to defend the indefensible

do you see any defense of Joe schmidt in that post???

i think your biases have you blinded.

and anyway, youre just another sea gull.
where was your criticism of Schmidt in 2018?

Professor Genius · 09-12-2019 12:24pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

do you see any defense of Joe schmidt in that post???

i think your biases have you blinded.

and anyway, youre just another sea gull.
where was your criticism of Schmidt in 2018?

What I see is someone desperately trawling through the history of any poster that dares to criticise King Joe.

Have you considered that I was on the forum under a different now closed account ?

Interested Observer · 09-12-2019 12:32pm

theVersatile wrote: »

I feel like Cooney gets slightly overrated due to his goalkicking prowess - he absolutely butchered a two on one yesterday that we wouldn't hear the end of it Murray had done the same. Still admittedly the form 9 in the country.

Thought Murray did fine yesterday considering the storm. Not back to his best but definitely not as awful as some would have you think. He's well able to play quickly when he wants to, take a look at some of those lineout launches from the first half. He only hesitates when there's repositioning to be done (a third forward working around to join the receiving pod which only has two) or when Itoje was lying all over his ball. Even in the warm up you can see he's spraying the ball around like mad - though his game around the fringes gas definitely regressed. Doesn't have the same threat to 10 and 20 at the rucks that the likes of Cooney have.

Murray has had about the easiest ride possible. It has taken the entire calendar year of 2019 for people to serious talk about his position being under threat, and his coaches have put him under absolutely no internal pressure at Munster or Ireland. And even at that, as I said earlier in the thread, I would say he's still the clear favourite to start in the 6N for the simple fact he is Conor Murray and everyone else isn't Conor Murray.

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:37pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

What I see is someone desperately trawling through the history of any poster that dares to criticise King Joe.

Have you considered that I was on the forum under a different now closed account ?

i fully expect you were.... again a pure sign of a sea gull,... not brave enough to keep posting under one name, and therefore be required to stand over what you say.
all the more reason to treat your current guise with utter contempt.

and as for "trawling".... i could find that info in less than 10 seconds.

Professor Genius · 09-12-2019 12:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

i fully expect you were.... again a pure sign of a sea gull,... not brave enough to keep posting under one name, and therefore be required to stand over what you say.
all the more reason to treat your current guise with utter contempt.

and as for "trawling".... i could find that info in less than 10 seconds.

You have no idea why I had a different user name.

Your anger reveals how horrible the truth must be for you. King Joe is no more and his fake legacy is being dismantled before your very eyes.

sydthebeat · 09-12-2019 12:57pm

Professor Genius wrote: »

You have no idea why I had a different user name.

Your anger reveals how horrible the truth must be for you. King Joe is no more and his fake legacy is being dismantled before your very eyes.

LOL believe me you dont create any emotion in me other than contempt and indifference.

Unlike you i can recognize all the aspects of Joe Schmidts tenure, from all the good things to ultimately not being able to do what every other irish coach failed at too.

Thats his legacy.... Still the best coach we've ever had.

Shefwedfan · 09-12-2019 1:03pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you didnt post in the rugby forum from June 2017 until August 2019

Basically the best period that irish rugby ever had.

So because you didnt not post in this period, and did not call out any of the issues that you subsequently claim to have been calling out all the time....

That means you have absolutely no credibility as a critic of Schmidt, as you were not brave enough to call out your issues when we were flying high.

We seem to have a few people who claim to have called out issues with Ireland and Joe but all seem to have on thing in common.....new accounts....

Desperately trolling the web to find a journalist that writes anything vague that might back up their new found wisdom doesn't really count either

All great now to question Joe but few people unable to recognize he is now left, gone, no longer with Ireland, hasta la vista.....So really the new found wisdom is absolutely 100% useless. You can't sack a manager that is already gone.

Onwards and upwards with the new coaching team.

P.S. as I have said multiple times, Joe made mistakes. He admitted himself he made mistakes. That still doesn't change his exceptional record at provincial and international level. He is still the most successful coach Ireland ever had. People ranting and raving about him now as if he was useless and it was blind faith really don't have a clue in my opinion. If he was sitting at home now with nothing maybe you could say that, but he is sitting at home with a bucket load of medals.

yerrahbah · 09-12-2019 1:12pm

With the news about Sexton emerging...

Carty starting 10 for the 6 nations?

Squidgy Black · 09-12-2019 1:17pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

With the news about Sexton emerging...

Carty starting 10 for the 6 nations?

Carbery is due back in the next week or two apparently, if he's fit he'll be picked I imagine.

Shefwedfan · 09-12-2019 1:24pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

With the news about Sexton emerging...

Carty starting 10 for the 6 nations?

Bit early to rule out Sexton?

Also, the new mantra was to pick players on form was it not?

whatawaster · 09-12-2019 1:31pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Bit early to rule out Sexton?

Also, the new mantra was to pick players on form was it not?

It should always be a mixture of form and overall ability. Can't just pick whoever played best last weekend, likewise you can't ignore extended drop-offs in form.

The right balance is somewhere in between those two.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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