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Changes to benefit the environment...

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  • Options
    #242
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Water John wrote: »
    This is an interesting article, Jerry Murphy UCC refers to an organic dairy farm that is carbon neutral.
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eating-less-beef-will-reduce-carbon-footprint-environmental-expert-925133.html

    Really need to move in this direction in farming not seeking further derogation on nitrogen.

    I think you'll find the feedstuffs in Ireland are digested too.


  • Options
    #243
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I wasn't supporting the article, it has plenty of holes. The best the Minister for the Environment could offer was to ask the GAA to deliver the message, WTF?
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gaa-can-offer-key-to-climate-change-goal-minister-believes-lnjcvhmnh

    Sorry it's behind a paywall, but you get the gist.


  • Options
    #244
    Gawddawggonnit
    Registered Users Posts: 3,244 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    Water John wrote: »
    This is an interesting article, Jerry Murphy UCC refers to an organic dairy farm that is carbon neutral.
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eating-less-beef-will-reduce-carbon-footprint-environmental-expert-925133.html

    Really need to move in this direction in farming not seeking further derogation on nitrogen.

    Finally someone points at the elephant in the room without being proscribed...


  • Options
    #245
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Gawddawggonnit wrote: »
    Finally someone points at the elephant in the room without being proscripted...

    It's not a very good article though and as said by John full of holes.
    You'd know from it, it was written by someone with zero experience of farming.

    The professor equates his work of being ordered by the EU to treat municipal raw sewage going into waterways with cows dunging themselves on pasture and tries to justify it by saying an indoor organic farm with waste run through an anaerobic digestor is the future.


  • Options
    #246
    Gawddawggonnit
    Registered Users Posts: 3,244 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    Hence the use of the word ‘proscription’.


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  • Options
    #247
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Some of you on Twitter might be interested in following the SMARTSWARD programme of research over the next few years.
    https://twitter.com/ucdlyonsfarm/status/1129473851425992704?s=19


  • Options
    #248
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    Some of you on Twitter might be interested in following the SMARTSWARD programme of research over the next few years.
    https://twitter.com/ucdlyonsfarm/status/1129473851425992704?s=19

    Why didn't they just take samples from other landowners land that meet those criteria?
    Send four students out in each direction to take samples from said land and BOOM, result in two hours.

    (I'm a little bit cranky today.)

    Just seems to be a waste of time and energy and looking for credits/finance for a new research project.


  • Options
    #249
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Say my name wrote: »
    Why didn't they just take samples from other landowners land that meet those criteria?
    Send four students out in each direction to take samples from said land and BOOM, result in two hours.

    (I'm a little bit cranky today.)

    Just seems to be a waste of time and energy and looking for credits/finance for a new research project.

    I imagine they will have to establish a baseline control plot and measure the differences, if any, that the different treatments have as compared with the control plot?

    If they're going to publish the results in any scientific journal, that would be a bare minimum starting point anyway.


  • Options
    #250
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I imagine they will have to establish a baseline control plot and measure the differences, if any, that the different treatments have as compared with the control plot?

    If they're going to publish the results in any scientific journal, that would be a bare minimum starting point anyway.

    It just seems to be a waste of time especially when there's figures coming from other area's and farmers that meet the criteria.
    They'll be waiting twenty years for any results worth a damn from the forestry side.
    It's kind of like how a county council worker would go about things.


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    #251
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Say my name wrote: »
    It just seems to be a waste of time especially when there's figures coming from other area's and farmers that meet the criteria.
    They'll be waiting twenty years for any results worth a damn from the forestry side.
    It's kind of like how a county council worker would go about things.

    +1

    A minimum of six years for any differences between grass plots to START to show differences, 15-20 before worthwhile differences.
    That's assuming they sample to 1m which they mightn't do. 30cm is more common.

    They're only replicating work already done in Germany and USA. There's also already a big enough body of evidence to point us in the right direction, they just need to be creative with their management to figure out how to give the majority of farmers a soft landing from the current system


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    #252
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    +1

    A minimum of six years for any differences between grass plots to START to show differences, 15-20 before worthwhile differences.
    That's assuming they sample to 1m which they mightn't do. 30cm is more common.

    They're only replicating work already done in Germany and USA. There's also already a big enough body of evidence to point us in the right direction, they just need to be creative with their management to figure out how to give the majority of farmers a soft landing from the current system
    Not to rain on their parade but it's obvious it's coming from on high and related to what's occurring in New Zealand and Minister Creed's "idea" of planting trees on farms and for Teagasc to have this under their belt to say "Look this is what we're doing" plus it'll look nice to show for visitors/students/officials to the farm.


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    #253
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Yes, in all spheres of this subject we will have, pretend progress and studies.
    Small progressions need to be called that. No harm in them but not to be confused with real seismic shifts. The plastic shopping bag, the plastic drinking straw, the reusable coffee/water carrier, turning off the tap while brushing your teeth. All have had their day in the sun.
    Real choices may have to be made. Do you focus towards more sustainable farming methods or plant half the grassland with trees? That looks like the real choice.


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    #254
    Dinzee Conlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    Water John wrote: »
    Yes, in all spheres of this subject we will have, pretend progress and studies.
    Small progressions need to be called that. No harm in them but not to be confused with real seismic shifts. The plastic shopping bag, the plastic drinking straw, the reusable coffee/water carrier, turning off the tap while brushing your teeth. All have had their day in the sun.
    Real choices may have to be made. Do you focus towards more sustainable farming methods or plant half the grassland with trees? That looks like the real choice.

    And what are these more sustainable farming methods prey tell? ;)


  • Options
    #255
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,473 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Varadkar’s comments that declaring the climate emergency was symbolic and a gesture were terribly ill conceived.

    Like, we all know they had no substance behind it but saying it out loud will push lots of voters away to the greens etc who apparently are gaining ground anyway.

    Shows just out of touch he is with the real world and public sentiment on the ground.

    https://www.joe.ie/life-style/668944-668944


  • Options
    #256
    gr8 m8
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gr8 m8


    Hello.

    If you are looking for ideas to diversify your farm and help make it more sustainable then I would recommend 2 books by American farmers!

    The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

    The second book is "you can farm" by Joel Salatin. He calls himself the "lunatic farmer" but the diversity that he has in his ideas that he has implemented on his farm is staggering.

    Also I have found that through trial and a lot of error, that nature has it all worked out for us but we as farmers are trained to fight against it. For instance, we spray off stinging nettles but yet nettle tea is huge as a health food with the idea that young nettle leaves help with fertility (but shouldn't be taken after becoming pregnant)! So if young nettles arrive in may then is it a coincidence that animals that calf in April out on grass have always been my most profitable animals?

    Ivy is supposed to be high in iodine also and any farmer with bad fencing will know that towards the end of the grazing year it isn't as uncommon sight to see the odd cow stuck in the ditch eating ivy off the trees.

    The amazing thing I find is that an animal has the instinct to know what she needs and how to find it! But we keep going in with stuff that we think that they should want because we have been told so.


  • Options
    #257
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
    An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.


  • Options
    #258
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Water John wrote: »
    Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
    An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

    I kind of aim to be energy negative.
    I haven't the foggiest what I am though.

    I know what you're on about probably re scope for renewable energy/electricity production on farms.
    But in my case if being energy negative means I'm importing meal, straw, woodchip, fertilizer more than what's leaving the farm. Then my soil and fertility and carbon is improving albeit at someone else's cost. If they're selling I'm buying.


  • Options
    #259
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    _Brian wrote: »
    Varadkar’s comments that declaring the climate emergency was symbolic and a gesture were terribly ill conceived.

    Like, we all know they had no substance behind it but saying it out loud will push lots of voters away to the greens etc who apparently are gaining ground anyway.

    Shows just out of touch he is with the real world and public sentiment on the ground.

    https://www.joe.ie/life-style/668944-668944
    If you were to really switch to a carbon saving economy as a Government.

    The first step would be to tax and impose a penalty on the drillers of that buried carbon/Oil and fossil fuel industry. So instead of the situation at present where Shell etc get paid for petrol, diesel, gas, etc. Impose a fine on them instead where they are drilling in the country. Same thing with the importers of fossil fuel impose the fine.

    Then with the sequesterors of carbon. The soil and sea owners, pay a reward for taking down that carbon from the atmosphere.

    Then with the general population. The people in the middle. Pay grants to help get off fossil fuel use and save energy.

    This is the work of a simpleton but it's the only real way to reduce carbon dioxide levels from current record levels.
    I understand that if the revenue from the fossil fuel industry stopped and we suddenly became carbon neutral that where's the incentives going to come from then to continue the revenue payments to the carbon sequesterors. And to that I haven't a clue. General taxation??
    But it certainly won't be easy to make change on the global atmosphere co2 concentration but still .... should be tried.


  • Options
    #260
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,631 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    _Brian wrote: »
    Varadkar’s comments that declaring the climate emergency was symbolic and a gesture were terribly ill conceived.

    Like, we all know they had no substance behind it but saying it out loud will push lots of voters away to the greens etc who apparently are gaining ground anyway.

    Shows just out of touch he is with the real world and public sentiment on the ground.

    https://www.joe.ie/life-style/668944-668944

    I can tell you that no genuine folks working in the conservation sector in Ireland take him and the Blueshirts seriously on any of these issues anyway. Birdwatch Ireland did an analysis of Parties voting record in the EU parliament on the likes of sustaineable farming, fisheries and general biodiversity - guess who came out worst??


  • Options
    #261
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    I can tell you that no genuine folks working in the conservation sector in Ireland take him and the Blueshirts seriously on any of these issues anyway. Birdwatch Ireland did an analysis of Parties voting record in the EU parliament on the likes of sustaineable farming, fisheries and general biodiversity - guess who came out worst??[/b[
    The Greens ?? :D:D


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    #262
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Could say to the meps if anyone ever sees one. The EU is one of the biggest consumers in the world, they wish to put conditions on its own farmers, it's population etc. Simply hold all the countries it imports from to the same standards. No roundup use etc. But that won't happen, couldn't stop the Germans from exporting all their industrial goods could we..


  • Options
    #263
    Suckler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭Suckler


    gr8 m8 wrote: »
    The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-48336239/how-a-new-diet-for-gassy-cows-is-helping-the-environment

    Just came across a similar idea used in South America.


  • Options
    #264
    Dinzee Conlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    gr8 m8 wrote: »
    Hello.

    If you are looking for ideas to diversify your farm and help make it more sustainable then I would recommend 2 books by American farmers!

    The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

    The second book is "you can farm" by Joel Salatin. He calls himself the "lunatic farmer" but the diversity that he has in his ideas that he has implemented on his farm is staggering.

    Also I have found that through trial and a lot of error, that nature has it all worked out for us but we as farmers are trained to fight against it. For instance, we spray off stinging nettles but yet nettle tea is huge as a health food with the idea that young nettle leaves help with fertility (but shouldn't be taken after becoming pregnant)! So if young nettles arrive in may then is it a coincidence that animals that calf in April out on grass have always been my most profitable animals?

    Ivy is supposed to be high in iodine also and any farmer with bad fencing will know that towards the end of the grazing year it isn't as uncommon sight to see the odd cow stuck in the ditch eating ivy off the trees.

    The amazing thing I find is that an animal has the instinct to know what she needs and how to find it! But we keep going in with stuff that we think that they should want because we have been told so.

    There is an agroforestry scheme now, and I would be very interested...

    But - I am holding out as I want to see if the grant aid is extended (currently it’s 5 years vs 15years for normal forestry)

    https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/


  • Options
    #265
    80sDiesel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭80sDiesel


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    gr8 m8 wrote: »
    Hello.

    If you are looking for ideas to diversify your farm and help make it more sustainable then I would recommend 2 books by American farmers!

    The first is called restoration agriculture by Mark Shepard. He planted a variety of about 250,000 fruit and nut trees in rows on his 100 or so acres, all in rows and then grazes livestock between these rows.

    The second book is "you can farm" by Joel Salatin. He calls himself the "lunatic farmer" but the diversity that he has in his ideas that he has implemented on his farm is staggering.

    Also I have found that through trial and a lot of error, that nature has it all worked out for us but we as farmers are trained to fight against it. For instance, we spray off stinging nettles but yet nettle tea is huge as a health food with the idea that young nettle leaves help with fertility (but shouldn't be taken after becoming pregnant)! So if young nettles arrive in may then is it a coincidence that animals that calf in April out on grass have always been my most profitable animals?

    Ivy is supposed to be high in iodine also and any farmer with bad fencing will know that towards the end of the grazing year it isn't as uncommon sight to see the odd cow stuck in the ditch eating ivy off the trees.

    The amazing thing I find is that an animal has the instinct to know what she needs and how to find it! But we keep going in with stuff that we think that they should want because we have been told so.

    There is an agroforestry scheme now, and I would be very interested...

    But - I am holding out as I want to see if the grant aid is extended (currently it’s 5 years vs 15years for normal forestry)

    https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

    Interesting. So after 5 years that's all the income from the forrestey part. ( The oak will take decades before harvest)

    A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone.



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    #266
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Water John wrote: »
    Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
    An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.
    Fertilizer is the biggest factor in that, it might be possible with crops to still be energy positive but with livestock it's definitely not


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    #267
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Water John wrote: »
    Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
    An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

    Did he look at any other industries?
    surely the only energy positive industries would be the ones that generate power, even then it'd be only the ones using solar/wind


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    #268
    alps
    Registered Users Posts: 4,927 ✭✭✭alps


    Water John wrote: »
    Mate did a thesis recently and it showed most farms are in fact energy negative. More going into production than leaving the farm, hardly a sustainable model.
    An objective analysis of all the research and studies is needed. I am open to being convinced as to what works but do know the mainstream present models don't have longer term sustainability.

    The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. ... In other words, energy cannot be created or destroyed.

    Any idea what the thesis conclusion is regarding the left over energy?


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    #269
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    alps wrote: »
    The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. ... In other words, energy cannot be created or destroyed.

    Any idea what the thesis conclusion is regarding the left over energy?

    carbon sequestration?


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    #270
    gr8 m8
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭gr8 m8


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    There is an agroforestry scheme now, and I would be very interested...

    But - I am holding out as I want to see if the grant aid is extended (currently it’s 5 years vs 15years for normal forestry)

    https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

    Hello

    I looked into that a few years ago and I wanted to grow apple trees on full size rootstock so that cattle couldn't reach the branches.

    I got completely shut down by teagasc. A real "computer says no!" moment.

    I don't understand it because an apple tree will do what an oak tree will do as far as I know, and I would get a crop of apples from it every year. Apparently Ireland buys in 85% of it's apples and we have a thriving cider industry down in Tipperary with bulmers! The saying goes "you can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it the once" comes to mind

    I'll never understand why we couldn't do fruit orchards and nut orchards with sheep and cattle beneath them under that grant. Are they afraid that we will end up making too much money?


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    #271
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭endainoz


    gr8 m8 wrote:
    I got completely shut down by teagasc. A real "computer says no!" moment.

    No surprise there, teagasc wouldn't encourage something that doesn't involve investment of 10s of thousands into buildings and increasing stock or converting to dairy.
    gr8 m8 wrote:
    I don't understand it because an apple tree will do what an oak tree will do as far as I know, and I would get a crop of apples from it every year. Apparently Ireland buys in 85% of it's apples and we have a thriving cider industry down in Tipperary with bulmers! The saying goes "you can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it the once" comes to mind

    I had thought of it myself at one point, only thing going against me was being close to the sea so would not get a decent quality apple. Remember seeing a thing in ear to the ground about a guy in North cork that was doing it. Said bulmers were (obviously) his main client but what he really had a passion for was selling at farmers markets.

    If your not close to the sea I'd be looking into it a bit more, maybe not through the so called experts from teagasc though.


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