Deep Retrofit Pilot Programme

s7ryf3925pivug · 07-02-2019 4:38pm

booooonzo wrote: »

yip, external wall insulation
based in NorthWest
house is 220sqM 2 story detached.

not small but not massive either.
the more i think about it the crazier the quote seems. I would be better buy a ruin and start with that.

Yeah. Probably why it seems like 90% of planning applications we see in the countryside are to knock an old bungalow and build a big new house.

Evd-Burner · 07-02-2019 7:12pm

That price just seems excessive though!

I would have thought the below as a rough guide on a 4 bed.

18k EWI
16k solar and battery
15k heat pump
18k windows and doors
4k attic done properly
10k Underfloor heating

81k total?

What about MHRV and new electric wiring. Does it include any other work in the house?

booooonzo · 07-02-2019 11:41pm

sorry i forgot HRV

high level break down
ex vat prices

EWI - 43k
scaffolding 3k
windows 18k
A2W - underfloor and rads upstairs - 20k
ground floor insulation - 15k
3kva solar - 8k
attic insulation (cellous) 3k
HRV 7.5k
Sprayfoam lean too and main roof 4.7

some other small bits

Mistymeg · 08-02-2019 2:53pm

booooonzo wrote: »

yip, external wall insulation
based in NorthWest
house is 220sqM 2 story detached.

not small but not massive either.
the more i think about it the crazier the quote seems. I would be better buy a ruin and start with that.

Hi , are u in donegal? Just asking as I am also and understand there is only one contractor doing these projects up here. That concerned me from a competition element as regards to pricing.

I’m told he can’t get me on list until next year but If the price is anywhere near that I’ll need to reconsider this. I’ve just submitted my ber and he said he will give me an initial price but won’t be able to give confirmed price until he gets the details from seai next year. Thanks.

Buddy83 · 08-02-2019 3:09pm

booooonzo wrote: »

sorry i forgot HRV

high level break down
ex vat prices

EWI - 43k
scaffolding 3k
windows 18k
A2W - underfloor and rads upstairs - 20k
ground floor insulation - 15k
3kva solar - 8k
attic insulation (cellous) 3k
HRV 7.5k
Sprayfoam lean too and main roof 4.7

some other small bits

43k for EWI? wowza, I was quoted (including scaffolding) a rough price of €100 per sq mt, with that dropping to €85 to €88 for a bungalow with no scaffolding needed. If you are insulating the external walls and the attic, would you get away with not insulating the floor, leaving out the underfloor heating and upgrading the rads to suit the A2W heatpump? with the solar and the A2W that should buy you enough credits to reach an A3 grant level?

Lumen · 08-02-2019 3:50pm

Buddy83 wrote: »

If you are insulating the external walls and the attic, would you get away with not insulating the floor, leaving out the underfloor heating and upgrading the rads to suit the A2W heatpump? with the solar and the A2W that should buy you enough credits to reach an A3 grant level?

Doubt it.

Check out this case study:

http://www.ecocel.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Ecocel-Passive-House-Plus-Issue-17.pdf

EWI, insulated floor, solar, still only hit the worse end of A3.

Buddy83 · 11-02-2019 2:41pm

Lumen wrote: »

Doubt it.

Check out this case study:

http://www.ecocel.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Ecocel-Passive-House-Plus-Issue-17.pdf

EWI, insulated floor, solar, still only hit the worse end of A3.

very interesting read, thanks for sending it on..... they are still using fossil fuel (gas boiler) I wonder how much their BER would have improved if they had gone for the A2W heat pump.......

EdgeCase · 11-02-2019 2:44pm

I can't really see this working. At €80,000 per home to retrofit say 1 million homes would cost €80 billion. There's no way that could be funded.

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-02-2019 2:56pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

I can't really see this working. At €80,000 per home to retrofit say 1 million homes would cost €80 billion. There's no way that could be funded.

They say it's limited. They'll pull it before anywhere close to 1M grants are issued.

It's good that they're funding improving houses like this but it's bad in the sense that in practice they're giving money to people who already have a good bit of money to spare.

It's like the way you can avoid a lot of income tax if you can afford to lock a lot of your income into a pension. Socialism for the rich and the poor, at the expense of the people in the middle.

Sorry starting to derail the thread a bit...

booooonzo · 11-02-2019 3:06pm

Legend Muscular Numskull wrote: »

They say it's limited. They'll pull it before anywhere close to 1M grants are issued.

It's good that they're funding improving houses like this but it's bad in the sense that in practice they're giving money to people who already have a q good bit of money to spare.

It's like the way you can avoid a lot of income tax if you can afford to lock a lot of your income into a pension. Socialism for the rich and the poor, at the expense of the people in the middle.

Sorry starting to derail the thread a bit...

no you're right, each batch of 5 houses has to have one 90% funded fuel poverty house too afaik

WhestCork2018 · 12-02-2019 5:12pm

So we received another reply from another company today that they are not taking applications, seems to be like a lotto to even get picked!

Muahahaha · 13-02-2019 4:55pm

Open to correction on this but I checked this out last October and got the impression from the company that they submit applicants to the SEAI towards years end for inclusion in the following years scheme. They had emailed me asking if I wanted to proceed and needed to know my answer by mid-November if I wanted to get on the 2019 scheme. So you might need to wait towards years end for 2020. Only way to find out for sure is to ring the SEAI, they are pretty helpful on the phone in my experience.

hesker · 14-02-2019 10:10am

Lumen wrote: »

Doubt it.

Check out this case study:

http://www.ecocel.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Ecocel-Passive-House-Plus-Issue-17.pdf

EWI, insulated floor, solar, still only hit the worse end of A3.

We viewed that house when looking to purchase several years back prior to the retrofit. Nice job.

Buddy83 · 20-02-2019 1:48pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Open to correction on this but I checked this out last October and got the impression from the company that they submit applicants to the SEAI towards years end for inclusion in the following years scheme. They had emailed me asking if I wanted to proceed and needed to know my answer by mid-November if I wanted to get on the 2019 scheme. So you might need to wait towards years end for 2020. Only way to find out for sure is to ring the SEAI, they are pretty helpful on the phone in my experience.

We have a company coming out to do an on-site survey for us next week, with a view to submitting an application to SEAI for funding this year. Company said if our application is successful they can schedule the works to begin late Sept 2019 early Oct 2019. They will be submitting 7 applications at the one time.

VonLuck · 14-03-2019 3:12pm

I am a bit unclear as to what the requirements are for the deep retrofit grant. Does the building have to achieve a BER rating of A3 upon completion to qualify?

I am currently considering the purchase and refurbishment of a property, but the viability will depend on this grant. Is there any way of finding out if this is a runner or would I have to purchase the property, apply for a grant and then await the outcome?

Evd-Burner · 14-03-2019 3:46pm

VonLuck wrote: »

I am a bit unclear as to what the requirements are for the deep retrofit grant. Does the building have to achieve a BER rating of A3 upon completion to qualify?

I am currently considering the purchase and refurbishment of a property, but the viability will depend on this grant. Is there any way of finding out if this is a runner or would I have to purchase the property, apply for a grant hand then await the outcome?

From what I heard from others regarding his scheme I definitely wouldn't decide to buy a house depending on the scheme. I am in the process of hopefully buying a house towards the end of this year.

Buddy83 · 14-03-2019 3:49pm

VonLuck wrote: »

I am a bit unclear as to what the requirements are for the deep retrofit grant. Does the building have to achieve a BER rating of A3 upon completion to qualify?

I am currently considering the purchase and refurbishment of a property, but the viability will depend on this grant. Is there any way of finding out if this is a runner or would I have to purchase the property, apply for a grant and then await the outcome?

will depend on this grant. Is there any way of finding out if this is a runner or would I have to purchase the property, apply for a grant and then await the outcome?[/QUOTE]

Per SEAI website house must have a current BER (in last 6 months) of C3 or worse, house must have been built prior to 2007. Once these 2 criteria are ticked, next step is finding a service provider that can take the job on (I have found this not to be the easiest of things to do) Once you find one, they will want a fresh BER and Air tightness survey completed, you organise and pay for it and send the service provider the reports. Once received (I think the main thing they need to see is that your house is C3 or worse and that you have Air change per hour of 5 or less for heat Pump to be viable) they will organise an onsite survey which takes about 2 hours. After that they will send you detailed costings for the project. Once you are both happy with the proposed works and costs, the service provider sends an application form on your behalf to the SEAI for funding. It can take the SEAI up to 8 weeks to repond, If an offer of funding is received from the SEAI only then does construction work start. I hope this helps, and best of luck!

VonLuck · 14-03-2019 8:43pm

Buddy83 wrote: »

will depend on this grant. Is there any way of finding out if this is a runner or would I have to purchase the property, apply for a grant and then await the outcome?

Per SEAI website house must have a current BER (in last 6 months) of C3 or worse, house must have been built prior to 2007. Once these 2 criteria are ticked, next step is finding a service provider that can take the job on (I have found this not to be the easiest of things to do) Once you find one, they will want a fresh BER and Air tightness survey completed, you organise and pay for it and send the service provider the reports. Once received (I think the main thing they need to see is that your house is C3 or worse and that you have Air change per hour of 5 or less for heat Pump to be viable) they will organise an onsite survey which takes about 2 hours. After that they will send you detailed costings for the project. Once you are both happy with the proposed works and costs, the service provider sends an application form on your behalf to the SEAI for funding. It can take the SEAI up to 8 weeks to repond, If an offer of funding is received from the SEAI only then does construction work start. I hope this helps, and best of luck!

Thanks for the detailed response. I assume this provider provides every item that is eligible for a grant e.g. heat pumps, external insulation, radiators etc.? Is there any grant for improving your windows and doors as well?

In the event I am not eligible for the deep retrofit grant, are the other single grants still available? I know there is a €3500 grant for a heat pump along - is that still the same process? Could an application be rejected for some reason?

Buddy83 · 15-03-2019 11:28am

VonLuck wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed response. I assume this provider provides every item that is eligible for a grant e.g. heat pumps, external insulation, radiators etc.? Is there any grant for improving your windows and doors as well?

In the event I am not eligible for the deep retrofit grant, are the other single grants still available? I know there is a €3500 grant for a heat pump along - is that still the same process? Could an application be rejected for some reason?

Yes the service provider will organise every item for the project, some of them are deep retrofit companies who have different staff with expertise in each area, and some are a project management service who will organise and contract out the work to other individual companies. Part of the Deep Retro fit Grant is the upgrading of your windows and doors if necessary (now you probably wont get 50% towards top of the range alu clad, more likely to be up to 50% for their treble glaze PVC counterparts, which would still go along way and you could supplement the budget to stretch to alu-clad etc if you so wished.

Yes there are quite a few single grants available, heat pump, solar panels, certain types of wall and attic insulation etc etc Id recommend having a good read on the SEAI website, they have lots of info on each of the separate grants available and the process required to avail of them.

In regards to an application being rejected, I'm assuming you mean the deep retrofit? I'm sure there are reasons for this to happen also you are not guaranteed to get the full 50% so you have to prove in advance that you have the funds to cover X amount of the project. With certain providers you have to pay 100% of the project yourself in stages as the project progresses and you get up to 50% back from the SEAI when works are completed. There are a couple of companies who will "front" this 50% themselves so you only need to prove that you have the balancing % not covered by the SEAI funding offer.

Might be worth contacting a service provider and having a chat? You'll get more information but obviously no guarentees.

Buddy83 · 15-05-2019 3:04pm

So we finally got our detailed costings for our planned deep retrofit project due to commence Jan 2020. Well shocking isnt the word.... i actually still dont have any words..... Figures are .. well again i have no words:

EWI 228 mt sq €37,500
Windows and Doors PVC Triple glazed €31,000
Wood burning Stove €3,500
Solar PV 1.5 - 2.0 kw PV €5,650
DCV €5,550
Attic Insulation 200 mt sq €6,680
Plumbing and Heating €25,150
*12 KW samsun Air source heat pump & controls
*Joule 200/60L pre plumber cylinder
* Low temp aliminium rads and piping etc

There are alot of other extras that continue to bump up the price including an additional 5% to cover cost of skips, health and safety, tool hire etc and another couple of k to make good plastering where affected...... and then of course none of these figures include the 13.5% VAT

Has anyone on here gone through this process with a provider they would reccommend? (PM please)

Feeling Disillusioned

Evd-Burner · 15-05-2019 4:05pm

Buddy83 wrote: »

So we finally got our detailed costings for our planned deep retrofit project due to commence Jan 2020. Well shocking isnt the word.... i actually still dont have any words..... Figures are .. well again i have no words:

EWI 228 mt sq €37,500
Windows and Doors PVC Triple glazed €31,000
Wood burning Stove €3,500
Solar PV 1.5 - 2.0 kw PV €5,650
DCV €5,550
Attic Insulation 200 mt sq €6,680
Plumbing and Heating €25,150
*12 KW samsun Air source heat pump & controls
*Joule 200/60L pre plumber cylinder
* Low temp aliminium rads and piping etc

There are alot of other extras that continue to bump up the price including an additional 5% to cover cost of skips, health and safety, tool hire etc and another couple of k to make good plastering where affected...... and then of course none of these figures include the 13.5% VAT

Has anyone on here gone through this process with a provider they would reccommend? (PM please)

Feeling Disillusioned

That is absolutely disgusting! 37.5k for EWI?! It would probably be cheaper for you to have the work done by yourself without any grants!

Muahahaha · 15-05-2019 4:54pm

Evd-Burner wrote: »

That is absolutely disgusting! 37.5k for EWI?! It would probably be cheaper for you to have the work done by yourself without any grants!

Thats what stood out for me too. The EWI quote works out at €165 psqm and that is after a grant of €6000 so the full price is €43,000, i.e. they are charging a total of €188psqm. I got some quotes for EWI before and none of them were anywhere near €188psqm :eek:

31k for windows seems high too but how many sqm of windows and how many doors?

Anyway the quote above and some quotes Ive had before make me think some of these deep retrofit companies are swallowing up the grant and then making a pretty penny on top. I'd a quote before for €80,000 of works and when I asked what would be the payback period on energy savings they looked at me like I had two heads.

Buddy83 · 16-05-2019 2:50pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Evd-Burner wrote: »

That is absolutely disgusting! 37.5k for EWI?! It would probably be cheaper for you to have the work done by yourself without any grants!

Thats what stood out for me too. The EWI quote works out at €165 psqm and that is after a grant of €6000 so the full price is €43,000, i.e. they are charging a total of €188psqm. I got some quotes for EWI before and none of them were anywhere near €188psqm :eek:

31k for windows seems high too but how many sqm of windows and how many doors?

Anyway the quote above and some quotes Ive had before make me think some of these deep retrofit companies are swallowing up the grant and then making a pretty penny on top. I'd a quote before for €80,000 of works and when I asked what would be the payback period on energy savings they looked at me like I had two heads.

In regards to the windows as a bit of a comparative i got an independent quote off a well known and reputable company for triple glazing aluclad and it came in at €32,000 so I have no clue where they are getting €31,000 for PVC from? And I agree the EWI quote is madness, you are right about some companies swallowing up the benefit of the grant.

Muahahaha · 16-05-2019 6:48pm

Buddy83 wrote: »

In regards to the windows as a bit of a comparative i got an independent quote off a well known and reputable company for triple glazing aluclad and it came in at €32,000 so I have no clue where they are getting €31,000 for PVC from? And I agree the EWI quote is madness, you are right about some companies swallowing up the benefit of the grant.

Definitely get a few more quotes for windows. Recently I've gotten quotes for new windows that had a 30% price differential. Upon research into the finer detail I realised both companies were using the exact same glazing product from a large supplier in the UK. The price differential just didnt add up for me, it would make you wary of getting ripped off on any big spend on a house tbh.

I know someone recently who spent €36k on windows and they didn't even ask for a discount. Couldn't believe they just stumped up that kind of money without even getting something off the figure, the salesman must of enjoyed a healthy commission on that one.

I wonder with the deep retrofit program do you have to buy all the bit and pieces from the company employed to do the works. It seems to me you could probably make decent savings by asking them for a list of products needed and then go source them yourself rather than them just paying suppliers whatever they ask and then putting a secret profit on top of it for themselves.

Muahahaha · 22-05-2019 1:33pm

Looks like there is a possibility that there might be changes coming in the administration of the deep retrofits, the Govt is considering adopting the Dutch model whereby you get the retrofit works done and pay the amount of via a low cost loan which is added to your electricity bills over 10-20 years.

HOMEOWNERS COULD END up paying for the retrofitting of their houses with a 10- or 20-year loan split across their energy bills. A proposed new government plan under consideration includes a pay-back system for the retrofitting of homes, modelled on a similar scheme in the Netherlands. The initiative is contained in Minister Richard Bruton’s Climate Action Plan, which is expected to be put before government in the next few weeks.

Also the article says

Average costs of a deep retrofit of a house prior to grant funding range from €20,000 and €40,000 if funded through the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI).

https://www.thejournal.ie/energy-bills-climate-action-plan-4643312-May2019/

Anyone considering a retrofit should probably hold off for a bit to see if this new model comes into existence and if the T&Cs suit them.

steamboat · 28-05-2019 5:08pm

I'm 6 months pursuing the deep retrofit scheme for our 175m2 semi-d and finally got a quote from one provider. It isn't comprehensive as it has omitted floor insulation and pumping the cavity, but in any case it is still coming in higher than expected which has me questioning the value of the scheme in terms of the financial benefit given the delay/heartache in navigating through the process. Prices inclusive of fitting and VAT and all eligible for ~50% grant.

Roof Insulation (100m2 300mm Earthwool, Insulated Walkboard, Low Level-Slate Vents) €2,703.59
External Wall Insulation 184m2 €25,879.98
Windows and Doors (2 doors, 30m2 windows, PVC U-value < 1.2W/m2 K ) €19,574.21
Airtightness Upgrades (Sealants and tapes to floors/walls/ceilings) €5,236.04
DC Ventilation €4,687.83
Air source Heat Pump (11.2Kw), pipes, cylinder, controls €12,423.57
Radiators (incl. pipework) €10,665.69
Solar-PV €5,650.94
Scaffolding €2,860.20
Waste Disposal €995.96
Works Total (including VAT of €10,785.49) €90,678.01

Is this anywhere near reasonable? At least the EWI, Windows/Doors and Radiators figure seems high to me but I've nothing to compare against for the other measures.

tommyh1979 · 28-05-2019 6:17pm

They seem very high....did they guarantee they'd get your house to the A rating standard required so you'd actually get the grant....there is a chance they're taking into account people are getting these grants so that naturally leads to a price increase

Muahahaha · 28-05-2019 6:57pm

steamboat wrote: »

External Wall Insulation 184m2 €25,879.98

Is this price excluding the €6k grant for EWI? If so then it works out at €140 per sqm. Its not the lowest Ive seen but not the highest either. Once the grant has been deducted you're getting it for €108 per sqm which if done right I would have said is a good price.

I get what you're saying about the whole scheme though. The spirit of it is good but the operation of it seems to work out very very expensive. I wonder myself about this holy grail of chasing an A rated house and if it is worth it overall.

I suppose it is a matter of calculating your projected energy bills over the next 20-30 years and calculating the savings on them by getting it up to an A rating standard. It may not even be economical and maybe you would be better off
doing just some of the measures independently of a deep retrofit company to attain a B rating. You'll still save on energy, maybe not as much but it could be the cheaper way to go overall.

Another consideration is the lifecycle of all the new equipment. Heat pumps wont last forever, likewise with EWI. Its all very well a salesman saying that you will save X amount by installing a heat pump but you've got to factor in how many years the thing will last as well, could you get hit for another €10k bill 15 years down the line? Suddenly all those energy savings you made get quickly swallowed up with a hefty expense for a new heat pump

steamboat · 28-05-2019 9:19pm

tommyh1979 wrote: »

They seem very high....did they guarantee they'd get your house to the A rating standard required so you'd actually get the grant....there is a chance they're taking into account people are getting these grants so that naturally leads to a price increase

Yeah, I feel it is inflated as they know the grant will increase demand and they can get away with it. But apparently they don't take on jobs which wouldn't be reasonably feasible to achieve an A rating - all applications they have done to date (since last year) have been grant approved so it would be unlikely that the grant won't be offered if they take the work on.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is this price excluding the €6k grant for EWI? If so then it works out at €140 per sqm. Its not the lowest Ive seen but not the highest either. Once the grant has been deducted you're getting it for €108 per sqm which if done right I would have said is a good price.

The cost after grant is good for sure - for EWI (and all other measures) it is a 50% grant, so the €25K comes down to €12.5K (€70 per sqm).

Muahahaha wrote: »

I get what you're saying about the whole scheme though. The spirit of it is good but the operation of it seems to work out very very expensive. I wonder myself about this holy grail of chasing an A rated house and if it is worth it overall.

I suppose it is a matter of calculating your projected energy bills over the next 20-30 years and calculating the savings on them by getting it up to an A rating standard. It may not even be economical and maybe you would be better off
doing just some of the measures independently of a deep retrofit company to attain a B rating. You'll still save on energy, maybe not as much but it could be the cheaper way to go overall.

Another consideration is the lifecycle of all the new equipment. Heat pumps wont last forever, likewise with EWI. Its all very well a salesman saying that you will save X amount by installing a heat pump but you've got to factor in how many years the thing will last as well, could you get hit for another €10k bill 15 years down the line? Suddenly all those energy savings you made get quickly swallowed up with a hefty expense for a new heat pump

Yes, very valid point. It's a massive upfront investment and the long term benefits and longevity are somewhat unproven. Still, if the operational side of the deep retrofit scheme was more efficient and the quotes were accurate to me it would be pretty much a no brainer.

Wartburg · 29-05-2019 1:06am

steamboat wrote: »

The cost after grant is good for sure - for EWI (and all other measures) it is a 50% grant, so the €25K comes down to €12.5K (€70 per sqm).

This deep retrofit scheme is driving me mad.
First of all there is a cap for every house regarding the grant. Have a look to the formal description, which says "up to 50%". The average grant per house is something in between 30k and 35k, which is still an awful amount of ad-hoc government funding. Please do not expect that they will pay you 45k, based on your quotation.
What I hate in general is the fact, that this scheme is forcing the inflation in the construction business. You should try to get another quote without mentioning that you´re aiming for the scheme. The lead time to go through the scheme and the amount of paperwork is massive, futhermore all these semi-state companies which guiding you through the scheme do not operate on the principle of mercy.
When I see your quoted price for air tightness and DCV, I could cry for the case thatt you´ll probably end in the average performance result (around 3 ACH @50Pa).
External wall insulation for around €140 per m² and extra scaffolding cost is thought-provoking for me too, especially by knowing the standard finishing quality for external wall insulation systems here in Ireland and that it goes to a semi D.
The most frustrating aspect is the missing monitoring of workmanship and installation details during the retrofit. Your performance values have been calculated on the drawing board, based on theoretical values, and I have serious doubts that they match the reality, once your project is finished.
And keep in mind that the scheme ends on the 31st of October annually. Only five months left for the complete process and approx. 6-8 weeks initial time for administration if you haven´t started the application process already.

Deep Retrofit Pilot Programme

Comments