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Solar Install; the on-going saga

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Comments

  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    What is MPPT an why do we need it?

    A typical solar panel is configured as a string of 36 x ~0.5V Solar Cells.


    469473.jpg

    Which produce 19Volts at full load.
    While our battery bulk charges in the 13.6V > 14.2V range.



    What PWM controllers do is reject the power above the bulk voltage.
    What MPPT controllers do is regulate and utilise it.

    Why that's a lot like saying...

    469474.jpg

    Well yes it is... but,
    ...it's more of a 36 cells operating at 83% duty thing rather than 30 are flat out and 6 are idle.

    But you can use that power with MPPT...or you could get the right solar panel for your system.


    Would that be the same in effect as this?

    469475.jpg

    A 17% smaller panel that performs the same? Or a same sized panel that performs 17% better.
    Yes, indeed, with PWM.

    Unfortunately 30 cell, high quality solar panels are not a thing. 36 cell are the standard.

    So were I to say a 100W standard 12v solar panel on a good PWM controller is setup to run at 83% peak performance. Mounted horizontally so derate another 30%... so it's a 60W panel on PWM, and a 70W panel on MPPT.

    This is a very telling graph I pulled from a 90W solar panel.
    Assuming MPPT can use everything under the curve so 100% rated.
    Let's look at the MPPT is 30% better than PWM myth....

    469476.jpg

    A PWM controller directly connects the battery to the solar panel. This makes the effective maximum power point of that system to be (battery voltage x solar current) fixed at around 14V in practical use.

    That means only the shaded portion is available to PWM systems.
    While the shaded and unshaded portion is available to MPPT sytems.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Standard 24V volt panel IV graphs are just as dissappointing. :(

    469477.jpg

    Oddles of power being rejected by PWM ..:rolleyes:

    Hold on, but we can get 60 Cell panels...for 24V PWM!! Huzzah!
    Now why's that good? Well 24v is twice better than 12v, and lots cheaper!

    469478.jpg

    Hold that thought!
    ..There's nothing wrong with PWM?
    It's the solar panel cell configuration is less than ideal for Irish climates and MPPT just compensates for it?

    Well yes...
    60 Cell PWM PV + 24V Lead acid = 60 Cell MPPT PV + 24V Lead Acid
    PWM = 3X Cheaper, more reliable and has a lower self-consumption...

    What good is that to me I have a 12volt system?
    24v is twice better and lots cheaper..:confused:....just saying...


    Why do we need MPPT? We wouldn't if we could get 30 cell solar panels for 12v. :rolleyes:

    Why do we want MPPT?...
    ...glad you asked!
    For a 12v system, it's cheaper...per watt than 2 x 12V panels with PWM...:eek:

    ;)


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Let's interrogate that graph for more data..

    469479.jpg

    469482.jpg

    Interesting findings.

    469481.jpg

    How is MPPT 30% better when there's only 20% more power available from the system?

    Cold weather uprating was it?

    469484.jpg

    0.61V x 36Cell X 5A = 110W = 30% more better

    If you ever saw 0°C and 1000Wm² solar irradiance at the same time and if the cell temperature wasn't generally 50°C hotter than atmosphere being that it lives in a glasshouse facing the sun...


    What does MorningStar claim? 10% > 15%!


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Lets crunch some financials..
    Let's have ~300w Solar because it's within the boundaries of 12v and 24v

    Contestant #1
    300Wp PV 12V PWM
    2 x 150Wp 36-Cell
    Acting as a 250W array due to "PWM losses"
    €400
    20A PWM Controller
    + €70

    Price Per watt
    €1.88

    Contestent #2
    290Wp PV 24V PWM
    1 x 290Wp 60-Cell
    Neglible PWM loss
    €160
    15A PWM Controller
    + €60

    Price per Watt
    €0.75


    Contestent #3
    290Wp PV 12V MPPT
    1 x 290Wp 60-Cell
    €160
    25A MPPT Controller
    +€250

    Price per Watt
    €1.41


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    469595.jpg

    Here we have Normal Operating Conditions Vmp of a 60-Cell Solar panel ≥ 2x(12volt).

    If this was 24V PWM system. MPPT would have a 3V advantage compared to it...


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  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]



    470389.jpg

    extra_happy.gif The B2B is back! extra_happy.gif
    Current Rating...presently..er..80A-ish

    470390.jpg

    She ain't purdy no more! I've added some speed holes for keyhole surgery..


    470391.jpg

    Turns out I didn't blow up one 97A FET.

    470392.jpg

    I toasted 8 x 97A FETs...
    damage was limited methinks because the electronics ground was isolated.
    :cool:


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    470394.jpg

    In a fortuitous turn of events I only blew up the easy to get to FETs ballspin.gif

    When I say easy to get to ...wielding a soldering iron from above a heatsink, around bodge jumper cables and capacitors in a teeny channel because the back of the board is an Epoxy slab.


    Easy like not impossible..:P

    470395.jpg

    I'm very glad these lived.



    470396.jpg

    I've soldered the new FETs to the legs of the old. I cut them as long as I could. I've even managed not to solder any legs together (world of pain).



    Seeing as the FET bus is in parallel and I didn't order enough reinforcements I ran the test at 75% complement and current limited it with a 12.5A charger boosting a fully charged battery.

    470397.jpg

    It's cycling through charge stages and behaving like recovering..
    I haven't load tested it or output current sensed.


    She'll be right in no time...
    "RS.. I need another bag of them FETs, 30 sticks of hot glue anna boxa band aids!"


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    watch-out-kids-theres-a-new-sheriff-in-town.jpg

    First impressions.
    Battery 95% SOC

    Split Charge Contactor: 183W
    Battery to Battery Charger: 320W

    B2B so far is 74% more better and 625% more expensive (although perhaps 40% overspec-ed (before I blew it up at least)).

    471772.jpg

    Temperature Comp. works great. :cool:


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I like it. The grunt and the charge tenacity.:cool:
    She's sure aggressive & persistent.
    Constant output, no more generation reduction from low alternator RPM in traffic, thanks to it's input load B2 regulation.


    Sure expensive for a 120A 1200W Continuous DC - DC Charger.


    Test Conditions:
    5 year old flooded battery charged to specific gravity 1.275, watered.
    C20 discharge applied for 10 hours.
    100% rated capacity confirmed (temperature compensated).
    B2B Charger wired on 35mm² from Alternator B+ to Service Battery Bus Bars with 35mm² feeder.
    4mm² original equipment ground cable with onboard fuse installed. :(
    Temp sensor installed.
    Manually switched.


    SOC at commencement of charge according to

    Trimetric (trusted): 52.5%
    Smartgauge (tuned low, tracking): 45%

    Resting Voltage: 12.1V



    B2B Inrush Surge: 92A


    472471.jpg

    I can't tell who won. :confused:

    The Sterling 1200W Continuous DC - DC Charger is €500, a used magnetic latching Alright SW80 contactor cost me €30.
    My SW80 does E-Start, full rated load, 100% efficiency and can be fixed with either end of a hammer, also waterproof and fanless. :P


    I like both.

    It's extra redundancy.

    High charge rate for windy motorways (alternator temperatures).
    "Low" Charge rate for pootling through town (fan belt wear reducing)


    This Sterling 1200W Continuous DC - DC Charger is this much better than a good cable job anna contactor.

    472472.jpg

    Which is to say about 10 times better than standard and double better than my Split Charge Contactor in practical use.
    It's most effective in the 70% - 90% range...it has filled under the curve very nicely in the happy battery zone.


    472474.jpg


    Give me a welder, metal, a dedicated alternator and a pulley kit I can do you an even less favourable result with double the input potential, inherent redundancy and cooler alternator temps.


    Or stick a 50Ω wirewound potentiometer beside yer dash ammeter on the D+ from the dash light above it. ;)


    0.5k€ for a double better charge powah source with short life capacitors in a hot sealed box?
    Worth it?



    I've derated mine to it's apparent nominal max operating current. It seems I mighta forgota put 40A back into the box when I reassembled it. :confused:
    Dear Charles...maybe I left them on the table or is the rating 50% inflated or was it 67% efficiency? who nose? Maybe they'll come back? I'll be sure to let you know if they do!


    I guess I didn't over-spec it at all. :rolleyes:

    I can now replenish 90Ah of my 220Ah battery in 1.5 hours or 100 miles.
    That used to take ~2.5 hours (~7x better than standard).


    My Service Battery is getting a wee bit fond of it's evaporative coolant (H²O), arah about 100ml a month....the Sterling will probably raise that loss to ~125ml.

    B2B Charge Profile: Flooded; 14.8V regulated...with temperature compensation 18mV per °C (fixed: conservative), what does naff all under 5°C because the output max voltage is 15.1V


    face-with-cowboy-hat_1f920.png


    Battery temperature at 60A sustained, C4 charge...nothing to get excited about.

    "Soft Start" is a ~60 second activation delay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Jaden


    Me reading Sir Liamlalot's posts:

    giphy.gif

    Quickly followed by whipping this bad boy out:
    9780387912189-uk.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Jaden


    Right, I *think* I actually understand at least the basics of most of the stuff in this thread.

    Simple scope for now. Bring onboard power up to some kind of spec. Currently, I have an Italian wiring setup. This will be RIP by the weekend.

    The underseat tray looks like it will take a second battery with some bodgering. Why "controller" for this is under the other front seat, is a mystery for the ages. One look at the setup tells me it will need to go.

    Circa 300w solar looks do-able. 24v looks cheap, I wonder....

    Time to go shopping.

    * Big copper. Currently (pun intended), it is not fit for purpose. I have a 12v lighter terminal in the boot, I won't even tell you what the voltage at it is. (Clue, it is not 14v)
    * Second Leisure battery from Halfords, 'cos it's warranty, and it's close.
    * Proper Battery monitor.
    * Solar Panels, and proper split charge. (MPPT? PWM!)
    * First aid kit for poor likkle fingers.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Jaden wrote: »
    Right, I *think* I actually understand at least the basics of most of the stuff in this thread.


    :o


    Jaden wrote: »
    Why "controller" for this is under the other front seat, is a mystery for the ages.

    Best place for them..ottov the acid vapour path. Less voltage drop on short cables.





    Jaden wrote: »

    Circa 300w solar looks do-able. 24v looks cheap, I wonder....


    Get a domestic panel (24V) + MPPT 20A.
    Jaden wrote: »


    * Big copper. Currently (pun intended), it is not fit for purpose. I have a 12v lighter terminal in the boot, I won't even tell you what the voltage at it is. (Clue, it is not 14v)


    Voltage Drop Limits:
    Chargers & Charge Controllers: <0.3%
    Meters: <0.3%
    Solar panels: <3%
    Fixed Loads & Outlets: <3%
    Switching Power Supplies: <10%
    Lights <5%


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