New biker - how do you deal with these situations?

Bluefoam · 04-04-2021 10:03pm

I've no idea what a yellow builder man costume will do in this scenario.... The van driver obviously wasn't paying attention, a yellow vest isn't going to change that.

di11on · 04-04-2021 10:33pm

Breezin wrote: »

If those are the options, think I'd prefer to be just killed! :-)

To be honest, if I'm going to be killed anyway, I think I'd much rather be seriously killed lol :-)

Hotblack Desiato · 05-04-2021 3:27am

babi-hrse wrote: »

I've seen a dead motorcyclist he was in his late 50s and riding a touring BMW with a friend. From the look of the accident it looks like a car pulled out onto a major road and clipped him. The sight of it put me off ever owning a bike. One lazy car driver who gets nothing but shook up Vs a rider who's getting chest compressions in the middle of the road. Drive like there are idiots out there because half of the road are idiots and it only takes one not paying attention for a second. It's not right but it's a reality.

It's always nice when Captain Obvious and Lieutentant Save Them From Themselves check in.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-04-2021 4:01am

Betsy Og wrote: »

I recall an instructor once telling me (after I was giving it the 'slow and cautious' answer) - sometimes you need to get the **** out of there, he can't hit if he can't reach you kinda thing.

I call it the "cone of danger". The faster you go, the longer it gets - but it also narrows. i.e. doing 80km/h on a road with junctions on the side, you need to be looking a lot further ahead, the stuff close by is unlikely to move far enough to hit you before you pass by. At 50 km/h the situation is reversed, the cone of danger is short but wide. Outside of the "cone of danger" an object is either far enough away to see and avoid, or too close to hit you before you have gone past.

On a bike like a 400 or 600 four cylinder four stroke, peaky power delivery, there's a lot to be said for being in a gear which gives the possibility for good acceleration when going through hazards like junctions in 50/60/80 km/h zones. You always have braking which is greatly in excess of engine braking, so don't worry about the latter, but the hazard of being caught in a gear (or two or three) higher than you should be is the difficulty in accelerating out of trouble. Going in maybe 5km/h slower but with the potential to accelerate out if needs be seems to make sense.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-04-2021 4:07am

"Priorité á droite" is a killer, even on roads it doesn't apply on a lot of old gits assume it does. Pretty much the stupidest road rule ever introduced anywhere ever.

That said, I never felt at more risk on a bike in France than I did in Ireland - including central Paris and the "infamous" Place de l'Étoile where many motoring myths seem to arise. Generally in continental Europe there is far more consideration shown by four-or-more-wheelers towards two-wheelers than there is here, it's probably the worst place in Europe here to ride a motorcycle, even the UK is better.

di11on · 05-04-2021 9:01am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

"Priorité á droite" is a killer, even on roads it doesn't apply on a lot of old gits assume it does. Pretty much the stupidest road rule ever introduced anywhere ever.

That said, I never felt at more risk on a bike in France than I did in Ireland - including central Paris and the "infamous" Place de l'Étoile where many motoring myths seem to arise. Generally in continental Europe there is far more consideration shown by four-or-more-wheelers towards two-wheelers than there is here, it's probably the worst place in Europe here to ride a motorcycle, even the UK is better.

Why anyone ever thought "Priorité á droite" was a good idea is truly a mind bender. Basically to know who has priority at a junction, very often there is no other clue than what signs are there or not there for the other guy!!!

aido43 · 05-04-2021 2:36pm

You get a sixth sense sometimes--but its best to presume they dont see you and slow down. Latest thing in Ireland is to drive straight on to roundabout regardless of right of way or yielding to right and its then up to you to deal with it. Ive a painted on road roundabout at top of my road and I know each time when they are going to keep on going despite me being in right--youll get the hand wave as if that covers it or the straight ahead stare--either way they will not stop.Ive given up even getting angry anymore--theres no Garda enforcement of anything anymore. Other issue here is the belief by all car drivers that an indicator rules over all--regardless of what or who is in next lane. Had a truck do it to me last week and when I accelerated to avoid him he proceeded to flash lights and try to catch me.-- convinced that I should have let him in.
Id sooner the French roads anyday--even the roundabouts are safer there and thats saying something.

corks finest · 05-04-2021 2:44pm

di11on wrote: »

Hey folks,

Living in the south of France and just got my A2 license... all through the French system which is no mean feat!

I'm in my mid 40s and quite safety conscious. I'm quite aware of the hazards of the activity.

Anyway, something happened today which spooked me a little...

I'm on an open country road. Here in south of France, there are no hedges or anything blocking the view - really clear day, good visibility.

I see an intersection well ahead and a Hiace flatbed type vehicle approaching from a minor side road. Very clear unobstructed view. I see he slows down approaching the intersection, looking for all the world like he's seen me. However, I'm still cautious and keeping my eye on him - almost feeling like I'm a paranoid idiot... and unbelievably, at the last moment, he moves out, clearly not having seen I'm there. I was able to get around him comfortably enough, but in hindsight, if he had come out a little more aggressively or there had been another vehicle coming the other way, I could have been in very serious trouble.

What is really bothering me about this situation is that this was best-case visibility conditions and he just didn't see me. I was wearing a light grey helmet and brown leather jacket - lights on.

So what do you guys do to mitigate this scenario? I can't flash cars at every single intersection I pass - it might even be wrongly interpreted that I'm letting them out. I can't slow down at every intersection, just in case...

In hindsight I think I should have reacted more decisively, but at the same time, if I'm to do this at every intersection I cross - that just seems crazy.

What are your thoughts on this?

Actually gave up motorbiking years ago primarily cos of this utter cretinous behaviour and similar in our roads in the free state- taking your life in your hands on a bike nowadays,lost 3 boyhood friends over the years,and conclude that the only real observant driver's are those who are or have been cyclists or motorcyclists-
And as for the gob****es who open the doors wide without even looking I just am mystified as to how dopey some driver's are, presume France is as bad?

schaffer · 05-04-2021 10:59pm

Breezin wrote: »

If those are the options, think I'd prefer to be just killed! :-)

maybe comically

B!gD0g543 · 07-04-2021 12:33am

di11on wrote: »

Hey folks,

Living in the south of France and just got my A2 license... all through the French system which is no mean feat!

I'm in my mid 40s and quite safety conscious. I'm quite aware of the hazards of the activity.

Anyway, something happened today which spooked me a little...

I'm on an open country road. Here in south of France, there are no hedges or anything blocking the view - really clear day, good visibility.

I see an intersection well ahead and a Hiace flatbed type vehicle approaching from a minor side road. Very clear unobstructed view. I see he slows down approaching the intersection, looking for all the world like he's seen me. However, I'm still cautious and keeping my eye on him - almost feeling like I'm a paranoid idiot... and unbelievably, at the last moment, he moves out, clearly not having seen I'm there. I was able to get around him comfortably enough, but in hindsight, if he had come out a little more aggressively or there had been another vehicle coming the other way, I could have been in very serious trouble.

What is really bothering me about this situation is that this was best-case visibility conditions and he just didn't see me. I was wearing a light grey helmet and brown leather jacket - lights on.

So what do you guys do to mitigate this scenario? I can't flash cars at every single intersection I pass - it might even be wrongly interpreted that I'm letting them out. I can't slow down at every intersection, just in case...

In hindsight I think I should have reacted more decisively, but at the same time, if I'm to do this at every intersection I cross - that just seems crazy.

What are your thoughts on this?

I honestly believe you make the right choice my friend. Safety first! no matter if any other believe this could be boring or anything…

Melted · 08-04-2021 8:34am

Bluefoam wrote: »

I've no idea what a yellow builder man costume will do in this scenario.... The van driver obviously wasn't paying attention, a yellow vest isn't going to change that.

pretty much this, the only benefit to wearing high viz that I have felt is in slow moving traffic or filtering were you are in amoungst cars as there is a greater lickely hood of catching their eye in the rear/wing mirror (if they bother use it).

had a similar situation as OP myself was in a town going down the main street slow and steady giving four car lengths to the car infornt at around 20kph. I was merged on top of from a minor road on the oposite side. Luckily I saw it in the corner of my eye and was moving to the left towards the pavement.

got the usual "did not see you", he even tried to imply that I was bombing it and thats probably why he did not see me :rolleyes: got real polite when he saw the helmet cam

di11on · 08-04-2021 8:44am

Melted wrote: »

... got real polite when he saw the helmet cam

Haha - nice one... probably a good idea to get one of those!

di11on · 09-04-2021 1:20pm

Hi folks,

I've come across Dan Dan the Fireman on Youtube. He's a firefighter, biker and motorcycle coach. Anyway - he has loads of videos where he does after action reports (AARs) on user submitted footage of bike crashes and close calls and I'm finding it really really helpful - perhaps others will to. For me it especially makes it very real that motors just don't see you. It's not personal, they just don't.

Here's an example video, but you'll find many more :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sne0aUZ208

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sne0aUZ208

two wheels good · 09-04-2021 2:24pm

Plenty to learn from Dan I suppose. He's good on the accident first aid aspects but I wouldn't call him a motorcycle coach.
For motorcycle control and advanced techniques .. e.g MCRider, a Texas instructor or some RoSPA advanced videos from UK

Look-up emergency braking. Not many riders practice this skill. If you have ABS the risk of locking the front wheel is avoided but ABS also gives you the possibility to steer with some control.
Be aware of what target fixation is. In an emergency look where you want to go; not at the solid object you're (too) rapidly approaching. Easier said..

di11on · 09-04-2021 2:49pm

two wheels good wrote: »

Plenty to learn from Dan I suppose. He's good on the accident first aid aspects but I wouldn't call him a motorcycle coach.
For motorcycle control and advanced techniques .. e.g MCRider, a Texas instructor or some RoSPA advanced videos from UK

Look-up emergency braking. Not many riders practice this skill. If you have ABS the risk of locking the front wheel is avoided but ABS also gives you the possibility to steer with some control.
Be aware of what target fixation is. In an emergency look where you want to go; not at the solid object you're (too) rapidly approaching. Easier said..

Thanks for the advice - the most impactful (pardon the pun) lesson is the behaviour of other road users and the almost inevitability of your right of way being violated on a regular basis.

I got my license in France and the training for the plateau test does cover emergency braking and swerving pretty extensively - it's pretty difficult actually - but your point is well taken - these skills do need constant development.

Jimmy Bottlehead · 09-04-2021 3:49pm

two wheels good wrote: »

Plenty to learn from Dan I suppose. He's good on the accident first aid aspects but I wouldn't call him a motorcycle coach.
For motorcycle control and advanced techniques .. e.g MCRider, a Texas instructor or some RoSPA advanced videos from UK

Look-up emergency braking. Not many riders practice this skill. If you have ABS the risk of locking the front wheel is avoided but ABS also gives you the possibility to steer with some control.
Be aware of what target fixation is. In an emergency look where you want to go; not at the solid object you're (too) rapidly approaching. Easier said..

Would second MCRider. He's not the most exciting Youtuber, but he's very very solid and focuses on fundementals.

And yes to the target fixation. You'll notice it on the road too, with things like potholes, or bits of debris. It's a habit that's good to be aware of and break.

knucklehead6 · 09-04-2021 4:08pm

I purchased a new high vis today to replace the learner one. Sure enough on the way home a car pulled out of an estate in front of me.

I had seen her and had been slowing down anyway, but still... She had that look of "oh sh!t" on her face as she drove past me

Mjolnir · 10-04-2021 8:54pm

Motojutsu is a very good channel for tips on how to ride.

Brakes locking up is absaloutly zero craic, especially when the back kicks out and you're on chippings.

Jimmy Bottlehead · 10-04-2021 11:54pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I purchased a new high vis today to replace the learner one. Sure enough on the way home a car pulled out of an estate in front of me.

I had seen her and had been slowing down anyway, but still... She had that look of "oh sh!t" on her face as she drove past me

Where I've had close shaves due to somebody else, there's been a few occasions where I've pulled alongside at a stop, gotten them to put their window down, and told them in a very direct manner how substandard their driving was, and to not do it again.

I'm not one for jumping to aggression, but car drivers need to understand how vulnerable and serious their mistakes can be to us. I would like to think she realises she could have turned you into a short newspaper story.

zubair · 11-04-2021 10:42am

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Where I've had close shaves due to somebody else, there's been a few occasions where I've pulled alongside at a stop, gotten them to put their window down, and told them in a very direct manner how substandard their driving was, and to not do it again.

I'm not one for jumping to aggression, but car drivers need to understand how vulnerable and serious their mistakes can be to us. I would like to think she realises she could have turned you into a short newspaper story.

I used to be that guy. I think it's better to give a head shake and move on. I think being a good ambassador for bikers is far more beneficial than giving someone a lesture because they drifted into your lane, most of the time they probably wouldn't even know what they did wrong.

I once spotted a mate of mine stopped at the lights in his car so I pulled along side him and was gesturing towards him, non aggressively of course, and he absolutely shat his pants until he realised it was me. He's a solicitor and told me he was having images of being killed like Veronica Guerin. You don't know what people's circumstances are and bikers can already seem threatening to people. So I know you're not necessarily being aggressive but that's probably not how it's being perceived.

Jimmy Bottlehead · 11-04-2021 11:37am

zubair wrote: »

I used to be that guy. I think it's better to give a head shake and move on. I think being a good ambassador for bikers is far more beneficial than giving someone a lesture because they drifted into your lane, most of the time they probably wouldn't even know what they did wrong.

I once spotted a mate of mine stopped at the lights in his car so I pulled along side him and was gesturing towards him, non aggressively of course, and he absolutely shat his pants until he realised it was me. He's a solicitor and told me he was having images of being killed like Veronica Guerin. You don't know what people's circumstances are and bikers can already seem threatening to people. So I know you're not necessarily being aggressive but that's probably not how it's being perceived.

99% of the time, I'm all about the friendly biker image. Not pushy in traffic, friendly waves and beeps to kids who seem interested, etc.

The times I've gone down the lecture route have been people almost causing me to t-bone them by pulling out without looking, or worse, trying to get out quickly rather than waiting. One of those was a chap blindly pulling across two lanes of traffic, causing me to emergency brake and stop with a legitimate two inches or less between my wheel and his passenger side.

In those situations, I'm 100% aware of how terrifying a biker is (and I'm a fairly big guy as is) and how aggressive it is perceived, so the point IS to put the ****s up someone so that they don't do it again. It's extremely rare I do that, but I do believe it has a place.

zubair · 11-04-2021 12:35pm

Just in case, I wasn't giving you crap about it. I was just presenting the other perspective. You do you. I just don't think theres anything to gain from it. Like I said, half the time they don't know what they did wrong and someone in a lid, who's seeing red and probably rightly so, isn't going to get through to them. I will rev bomb or give an ignorant beep but I'm not going to stick around to have a conversation about it.

aido43 · 12-04-2021 9:54am

Ive also given up on remonstrating--its energy wasted on no marks who will never learn and usually react aggressively to any suggestion of wrongdoing. The average driver doesnt care about you on a bike--my life is too short to waste my time on aggro. I just make a note to keep alert and keep looking for danger.

zubair · 12-04-2021 10:04am

aido43 wrote: »

Ive also given up on remonstrating--its energy wasted on no marks who will never learn and usually react aggressively to any suggestion of wrongdoing. The average driver doesnt care about you on a bike--my life is too short to waste my time on aggro. I just make a note to keep alert and keep looking for danger.

Great point which I forgot to add was the lesson learning element.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-04-2021 11:41am

I've found that the more in the wrong the other driver is, the more aggressively they react (yes, women too.)

zubair · 13-04-2021 12:05pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I've found that the more in the wrong the other driver is, the more aggressively they react (yes, women too.)

Haha, once had a woman hanging out of her window in traffic abusing me after she pulled out right in front of me and I escaped down the cycle lane on the inside. I didn't even have time to beep so no idea what her problem was bar completely scaring the sh1t out of herself by almost hitting me.

Betsy Og · 13-04-2021 1:22pm

On the Dan Dan video, the first crash was due to poor line of sight didn't see car coming across the lane in a line of traffic. If he'd stood on the pegs he probably would have seen the car crossing.

Q - do you ever stand when filtering or approaching junctions with traffic queuing? - obv would need to be slow speed as wouldn't want to ram on the brakes while stood up - but moving slowly and covering the front brake, shouldn't endanger yourself, in theory should should give better views left and right (ok you don't have mirrors for what's behind but the main risk in this scenario is what might get you from left or right up ahead).

Jimmy Bottlehead · 13-04-2021 1:24pm

Betsy Og wrote: »

On the Dan Dan video, the first crash was due to poor line of sight didn't see car coming across the lane in a line of traffic. If he'd stood on the pegs he probably would have seen the car crossing.

Q - do you ever stand when filtering or approaching junctions with traffic queuing? - obv would need to be slow speed as wouldn't want to ram on the brakes while stood up - but moving slowly and covering the front brake, shouldn't endanger yourself, in theory should should give better views left and right (ok you don't have mirrors for what's behind but the main risk in this scenario is what might get you from left or right up ahead).

I don't think I've ever stood while filtering. Any filtering I do is in either crawling or stopped traffic, I rarely filter between fast moving traffic.

Betsy Og · 13-04-2021 1:40pm

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I rarely filter between fast moving traffic.

Yep, I think most people's idea of filtering is urban traffic jams and stopped lines of traffic, the idea being to slot into a space once it starts moving normally again (as opposed to crawling 20 yards and stopping again).

zubair · 13-04-2021 7:58pm

I have stood on the pegs to get a better view ahead at times but not when filtering. I might have done it before I started to filter, can't think of the scenarios but I've done it. Simple approach when filtering is to expect a pedestrian, cyclist, dog, anything, to come between two cars you're filtering past, and also remember to expect them to randomly decide to do a uturn. One very obvious one is when a car is stopped with a large gap between them and the car in front. Expect them to be letting someone out.

New biker - how do you deal with these situations?

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