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AI on sucklers

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Comments

  • #32
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,201 ✭✭✭tanko


    I don't usually use cidr's, estrumate or the like, rely on natural heats as much as possible.
    Using them would be a last resort, keep plenty of heifers to replace cows that have problems.
    If i did estrumate a heifer i'd wait for her to come bulling.


  • #33
    k mac
    Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭k mac


    Would it be an idea get 8 heifers mix of Angus and Hereford red ones being a bonus. Give an Angus AI to the Hereford and Hereford to the Angus. Calve them in April in a garden beside the hayshed which one bay could be used to calve them in. Bring them to finish at 24 months or so, earlier if possible. Would get the bonus for both the Angus and Hereford if brought to athleague which isn't that far away .
    Have 12 acres of bog with some nice grazing in it if the cows were quite and used to the ground could let them down there with a few round bales and the feeder for October and November shortening the time they will be housed on the slats on silage which would result in a small saving. Trying to keep the cost of keeping the cow for the year as small as possible I think is important.


  • #34
    Donegalforever
    Registered Users Posts: 405 ✭✭Donegalforever


    mr.stonewall wrote: »
    Worked out at €22 per cost Inc call out of vet to put coils in. Paid the vet leaving the yard. After that it's the cost of ai. Ai company maybe willing to do a deal with all serves on the one time. Average cost of about €30
    Comes to a total cost of €1250 over 25 cows or about €50 a head. No cost of carrying a bull for the year or winter and then replacement. In small herds with part time it's a no brainer

    You could save the Vet fees by inserting the coils yourself.
    It is very easy to do. Just watch the Vet doing it and it is easy to pick up.
    There is a very good video on YouTube with a Vet showing how to insert a CIDR Coil.


  • #35
    charolais0153
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    k mac wrote: »
    Would it be an idea get 8 heifers mix of Angus and Hereford red ones being a bonus. Give an Angus AI to the Hereford and Hereford to the Angus. Calve them in April in a garden beside the hayshed which one bay could be used to calve them in. Bring them to finish at 24 months or so, earlier if possible. Would get the bonus for both the Angus and Hereford if brought to athleague which isn't that far away .
    Have 12 acres of bog with some nice grazing in it if the cows were quite and used to the ground could let them down there with a few round bales and the feeder for October and November shortening the time they will be housed on the slats on silage which would result in a small saving. Trying to keep the cost of keeping the cow for the year as small as possible I think is important.

    Red Angus and Ch bull is viable , lovely yellow calves


  • #36
    FeelTheBern
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭FeelTheBern


    k mac wrote: »
    Would it be an idea get 8 heifers mix of Angus and Hereford red ones being a bonus. Give an Angus AI to the Hereford and Hereford to the Angus. Calve them in April in a garden beside the hayshed which one bay could be used to calve them in. Bring them to finish at 24 months or so, earlier if possible. Would get the bonus for both the Angus and Hereford if brought to athleague which isn't that far away .
    Have 12 acres of bog with some nice grazing in it if the cows were quite and used to the ground could let them down there with a few round bales and the feeder for October and November shortening the time they will be housed on the slats on silage which would result in a small saving. Trying to keep the cost of keeping the cow for the year as small as possible I think is important.

    You’re obviously putting a lot of thought into this - as most of us do on here! My advice would be to do whatever is handiest and you get enjoyment from particularly if you’re working and don’t get too caught up in having everything perfect or the most efficient or best looking. The reality as far as I can see is that there’s either no money, or very little money in beef farming (maybe particularly sucklers) taking into account time and money invested compared to money being made in the real world. Heard a lad on the radio a few weeks ago saying all meat will be made in carbon neural labs in the future anyway.

    So would try to enjoy whatever farming you do, try not to spend too much time at it at expense of time with family, spend as much or as little money as you want on it. Oh and if I was you I’d just buy a bull so at least you have calves 😀


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  • #37
    bogman_bass
    Registered Users Posts: 5,057 ✭✭✭bogman_bass


    I don’t how anybody with that number of cows world be messing about with a bull.
    100% AI here and has been since I was was in short trousers.
    The big advantage of AI is you can match the bull to the cow. Where as a bull has to be one size fits all.
    A bull is grand if everything goes right but if he goes lame, infertile or indeed sub-fertile then you have major headaches.
    I have my doubts that a bull will get any more cows in calf in the same period but instead cows get out in calf at a later stage because the bull keeps going after you would have pulled the plug with AI


  • #38
    Dunedin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    I don’t how anybody with that number of cows world be messing about with a bull.
    100% AI here and has been since I was was in short trousers.
    The big advantage of AI is you can match the bull to the cow. Where as a bull has to be one size fits all.
    A bull is grand if everything goes right but if he goes lame, infertile or indeed sub-fertile then you have major headaches.
    I have my doubts that a bull will get any more cows in calf in the same period but instead cows get out in calf at a later stage because the bull keeps going after you would have pulled the plug with AI

    That’s a similar argument to buying a post driver versus hiring one. Every farm is different. It was always AI here since I was a child. Now use a bull and having done both I wouldn’t go back to AI for all the tea in China.
    The Last year I did AI, I had a bill of €350 on 14 cows and had 3 AI calves. Near impossible to get the cows in as yard is on one side of the farm so just got a bull that year and he tided up everything albeit it dragged on. Bull is no different to any animal, sur your cows can get lame, sick, fertility issues too. Would have 97% incalf year after year with bull on a 7 week calving.

    AI can work grand if your fields are set up for a handy way to get cows in (and stress free at that too) and you’re around to keep a good eye for bulling but not everyone fits both of these.


  • #39
    Sami23
    Registered Users Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Sami23


    Dunedin wrote: »
    That’s a similar argument to buying a post driver versus hiring one. Every farm is different. It was always AI here since I was a child. Now use a bull and having done both I wouldn’t go back to AI for all the tea in China.
    The Last year I did AI, I had a bill of €350 on 14 cows and had 3 AI calves. Near impossible to get the cows in as yard is on one side of the farm so just got a bull that year and he tided up everything albeit it dragged on. Bull is no different to any animal, sur your cows can get lame, sick, fertility issues too. Would have 97% incalf year after year with bull on a 7 week calving.

    Couldn't agree more - twas a right pain trying to get them in for AI and be ending up with empties after all the hassle


  • #40
    SuperTortoise
    Registered Users Posts: 2,945 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    As others have already said AI is grand if you're well set up for it, we done it here for a few years when i was younger and i did'nt pay much attention to chasing cows and calves around a field(s) for a few hours every week, we have a fragmented farm and admittedly not enough handling facilities on the grazing land, i work full time in a job that can be physically tiring and to be honest the last thing i want to do when i come home from a days work is to be running and chasing around a field trying to get a cow into a pen.
    There are downsides to having a bull of course but for me and my setup right now, a bull is the way to go.


  • #41
    Albert Johnson
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Albert Johnson


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    I don’t how anybody with that number of cows world be messing about with a bull.
    100% AI here and has been since I was was in short trousers.
    The big advantage of AI is you can match the bull to the cow. Where as a bull has to be one size fits all.
    A bull is grand if everything goes right but if he goes lame, infertile or indeed sub-fertile then you have major headaches.
    I have my doubts that a bull will get any more cows in calf in the same period but instead cows get out in calf at a later stage because the bull keeps going after you would have pulled the plug with AI

    From watching suckler herds on TV in both England and the continent we (Ireland) seem to be the only one's that keep cows of every colour and breed in our herds. With so much genetic differences from cow to cow it's hard to get a bull to suit everything and therefore AI seems the most suitable option. If you had a herd of similar type cows built up then it would be easier to source a stock bull to complement them. With regard to illness or injury it's simply a case of good stockmanship imo and you have to keep your eyes open.

    As for claiming that AI will deliver as many calves as a bull over whatever period I'd argue that it's dependent on a lot of factor's. If you're heat detection strategy was top notch and you had an easily workable system for getting cow's into the yard for insemination then you'd have results on par with any stock bull. However if you were missing heats/repeats, couldn't get the cow's into the yard ect then you'd be long better off with a bull imo.

    The men I see getting best results from AI are elderly bachelor's who are at home during the day and watch cow's that should be coming a bulling at regular intervals throughout the day. If they were away at work or whatever that wouldn't happen and consequently they'd have a lot less success. In my own personal situation I'd have very few calves if depending on AI. Yes feeding and maintaining a bull is a cost and you need to monitor there performance during the breeding season to ensure success but it's the best compromise for my situation.


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  • #42
    ABitofsense
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭ABitofsense


    AI can be tricky but as ye're saying it the setup that makes it easy. I work 9-5 each day so I've all the cows trained to come into the yard & a hand full of nuts is all that's needed. From any field in the farm they'll follow and calves learn quickly too. AI man comes around 10 so father can do this on his own hassle free if needed too. Biggest thing is detection with AI, I walk cows every morning & evening and note all heats from now to bulling time at the end of May so I'd have a very good idea when each is due heat. I only had 2 repeats from 16 last year, and these 14 all calved within 5 weeks. I run my couple of replacement hiefers with too which helps for detection.


  • #43
    Who2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭Who2


    I do both here but I couldn’t manage ai across the herd. An easy calving lm bull in my opinion ticks most of the boxes for a mixed type herd of cows but I’ve been changing over to ch more so the last few years and they aren’t as forgiving on the wrong cow. A framey red cow with a bit of shape and a good ch bull will put out a consistent type calf that attracts repeat buyers who know what they are going to get. When you go to a mart with a pen of the one type of weanlings often the best calves will attract a premium for the lesser ones. Heifers have been getting ai now each year all with replacement in mind and a handful of cows that I may try something a bit harder calves on. I’m fairly well setup for ai-ing but your head would be driven mad bringing them in and out. Most lads suckling around me have a cow type and stick fairly close to it.


  • #44
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Starting out suckling I did all AI, got on well ( good calves , matching bull to cows etc.) However one year in particular nothing seemed to go right and i ended up buying a bull late in season ( local breeder with a bull that was lame in early spring ) and have a bull since. For a few years i did 3 or 4 weeks AI at start and then let off bull. Layout of farm is long narrow with cows a long way from yard at certain times


  • #45
    Sugarbowl
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Sugarbowl


    Did anyone ever hear before how the time you AI the cow can determine the sex of the calf? IE early would be a bull and late on in the heat would be a heifer. I tend to AI them late and the last 2 years especially I’ve a pile of heifers. It’s been 3 weeks now since I’ve had a bull and I’m almost calved!


  • #46
    charolais0153
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    Sugarbowl wrote: »
    Did anyone ever hear before how the time you AI the cow can determine the sex of the calf? IE early would be a bull and late on in the heat would be a heifer. I tend to AI them late and the last 2 years especially I’ve a pile of heifers. It’s been 3 weeks now since I’ve had a bull and I’m almost calved!

    I thought it was the other way around


  • #47
    SuperTeeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭SuperTeeJay


    Sugarbowl wrote: »
    Did anyone ever hear before how the time you AI the cow can determine the sex of the calf? IE early would be a bull and late on in the heat would be a heifer. I tend to AI them late and the last 2 years especially I’ve a pile of heifers. It’s been 3 weeks now since I’ve had a bull and I’m almost calved!

    Ai man always came in the morning here so whether they were in heat the morning before or the night before made no difference to the sex of the calf .Timing of service made no difference in conception rates either.Running about 30 cows.One thing that is consistent tho is that we very rarely have any repeats when they are Ai'd in the shed but out at grass probably 30/40% repeat.


  • #48
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭minerleague


    k mac wrote: »
    If you were starting from scratch with 7/8 cows on 18 acres of mostly marginal wet peaty ground and a 3 bay slatted shed what cows would you go with and using AI, what bull. Main considerations would be no.1, ease of calving, docility and if possible to sell progeny as weanlings in the mart, if not either selling as stores before the second winter or bringing to finish. Another consideration would be calving possibly outdoor in April, also as the ground is wet would the likes of hereford or angus cows be best as they are not as heavy, and might not eat as much considering there is not a big acreage.

    What about a few pedigree Angus cows ( hard to justify bull for 8 cows so you'll probably be going AI anyway) Going to mart ( non pedigree cows ) hard to get value from calves by angus bull ( different going to factory with all bonuses ) so easy calving limousin on angus X fr cows( maybe keeping replacements to go 1/2 lim 1/4 angus 1/4 fr)


  • #49
    k mac
    Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭k mac


    minerleague wrote: »
    What about a few pedigree Angus cows ( hard to justify bull for 8 cows so you'll probably be going AI anyway) Going to mart ( non pedigree cows ) hard to get value from calves by angus bull ( different going to factory with all bonuses ) so easy calving limousin on angus X fr cows( maybe keeping replacements to go 1/2 lim 1/4 angus 1/4 fr)

    When you say pedigree angus cows, and a easy calving limousin on angus x fr cows, would the angus x fr be a cross and not be pedigree.
    Is your reason for suggesting pedigrees that when selling the offspring you could sell them as pedigrees?, the bulls for someone to use for breeding, and the heifers as pedigrees.


  • #50
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭minerleague


    k mac wrote: »
    When you say pedigree angus cows, and a easy calving limousin on angus x fr cows, would the angus x fr be a cross and not be pedigree.
    Is your reason for suggesting pedigrees that when selling the offspring you could sell them as pedigrees?, the bulls for someone to use for breeding, and the heifers as pedigrees.

    Yes selling pedigree bulls for breeding ( dairy farmers use them a lot ), the only downside plenty doing it so either do it well or not at all. The Angus x freisen cow for normal suckling with a lim bull if you want to sell in mart. After a year or two you could try charolais / simmental as you see which cows can take a little more calving difficulty. I like the saler breed for replacements but you say docility is important to you ( they can be flighty )


  • #51
    k mac
    Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭k mac


    minerleague wrote: »
    Yes selling pedigree bulls for breeding ( dairy farmers use them a lot ), the only downside plenty doing it so either do it well or not at all. The Angus x freisen cow for normal suckling with a lim bull if you want to sell in mart. After a year or two you could try charolais / simmental as you see which cows can take a little more calving difficulty. I like the saler breed for replacements but you say docility is important to you ( they can be flighty )

    Had a saler bullock last year....never ever ever again. 3 attempts to get tested, broke gates drinking troughs door, jumped the crush, skulling gate , pen and gone....if I got one for free I wouldn't take one.Greatest lunatic I ever seen. I don't care if they can calve an elephant 😀


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  • #52
    Anto_Meath
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath


    Bought two saler weanlings one time. They were mad, managed to quiten them a bit by keeping them with bucket reared cattle & breaking ash leaves to feed to them. They would walk anywhere behind me once they seen no one else. Sold them in the Mart at 760kgs and they weren't anywhere near fit to kill. Had a few more bucket fed ones over the years, grow into very big cattle but hard to finish.


  • #53
    k mac
    Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭k mac


    Anto_Meath wrote: »
    Bought two saler weanlings one time. They were mad, managed to quiten them a bit by keeping them with bucket reared cattle & breaking ash leaves to feed to them. They would walk anywhere behind me once they seen no one else. Sold them in the Mart at 760kgs and they weren't anywhere near fit to kill. Had a few more bucket fed ones over the years, grow into very big cattle but hard to finish.

    Its funny I had 2 bullocks the exact same they would walk behind me no problem to move they'd follow the bucket of nuts but if anyone else tried to do anything or they even seen anyone else forget it, that was the problem testing. And the same as that impossible to put flesh on they only grew up.


  • #54
    Dunedin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    k mac wrote: »
    Its funny I had 2 bullocks the exact same they would walk behind me no problem to move they'd follow the bucket of nuts but if anyone else tried to do anything or they even seen anyone else forget it, that was the problem testing. And the same as that impossible to put flesh on they only grew up.

    Never had salers so no experience but why would anyone even contemplate them if they’re that bad????


  • #55
    Albert Johnson
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭Albert Johnson


    Dunedin wrote: »
    Never had salers so no experience but why would anyone even contemplate them if they’re that bad????

    From my experience there very headstrong and if they don't want to do something it's very hard to force them, much like a Limousine imo. I wouldn't think there's many more wild Saler's than any other breed just that a wild Saler tends to leave even a wild LM looking like a pet lamb. With both LM and SA in my experience you'll have more success walking ahead of them with a bucket as opposed to going behind them with a stick. You lead and hopefully they'll follow as opposed to vice versa.


  • #56
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Dunedin wrote: »
    Never had salers so no experience but why would anyone even contemplate them if they’re that bad????

    Have a few cows here with saler breeding ( great cows to calve, good udders and teats with enough milk without too much iykwim, ) I find they're pure pets for me on my own but very flighty if they see stranger. Not wild in the sense you'd be afraid of them but your gates and walls would want to be a good height


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