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As you think so you shall be? You are not your thoughts?

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  • 09-04-2021 5:08pm
    #1
    Danye
    Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I’m new to these parts and I’m not sure if it’s the correct forum to post but I recently read a book by Richard Carlson.

    In one of the earlier chapters of this book he said “As you think so you shall be”

    But then in a later chapter he said “You are not your thoughts”

    This is causing me some confusion. Is what he’s saying not contradictory?

    Thanks


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    #2
    Rigsby
    Registered Users Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Perhaps he means that it is how you interpret and deal with your thoughts that will determine what happens next. Accepting them as just thoughts, without getting involved in their story, then letting them go, will have a different outcome than if you mull over and analyse them.


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    #3
    Danye
    Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Danye


    Rigsby wrote: »
    Perhaps he means that it is how you interpret and deal with your thoughts that will determine what happens next. Accepting them as just thoughts, without getting involved in their story, then letting them go, will have a different outcome than if you mull over and analyse them.

    But if your not your thoughts, and by default not who you think you are, who are you?


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    #4
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Reminds me of an expression l have heard occasionally. “To be, you must be, before you be.”


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    #5
    Fathom
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Danye wrote: »
    I’m new to these parts and I’m not sure if it’s the correct forum to post but I recently read a book by Richard Carlson.
    Welcome.
    Danye wrote: »
    In one of the earlier chapters of this book he said “As you think so you shall be”
    May be figuratively parallel to the Thomas theorem, which suggests “If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.”
    Danye wrote: »
    But then in a later chapter he said “You are not your thoughts.” This is causing me some confusion. Is what he’s saying not contradictory?
    Unsure. Does seem confusing. Wondering if he is differentiating between thoughts and actions?


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    #6
    Danye
    Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Danye


    Fathom wrote: »
    Welcome.

    Thank you.
    May be figuratively parallel to the Thomas theorem, which suggests “If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.”

    Interesting. Everything is only important as you decide it to be?
    Unsure. Does seem confusing. Wondering if he is differentiating between thoughts and actions?

    Yeah I found it very confusing although, I think, I may be able to articulate what he means, well what I think he meant.

    The book is "Stop thinking and start living" and it seems to be that the book could be mainly aimed at people who are going through or living with depression. His view is that it's your negative thoughts alone that are making you depressed as everything comes back to your thoughts and as humans we're predisposed to be negative. So initially he says that your thoughts aren't actually real and hold no validity. He then explains how to watch your thoughts which by default brings you into the present moment where from there you can decide to choose better, more uplifting and positive thoughts which will then in turn lead you out of your depression.

    It seems to be that he tries to, 1- disarm or dissociate you from your current (negative) thoughts (You are not your thoughts) 2 - tell you to monitor your thoughts which brings you into the present moment 3- where you can then decide to choose better thoughts which will make you and / or your life better. Which brings you back to you are your thoughts.

    The only problem I have even with this is, how can you decide you are your thoughts one minute but then not your thoughts??


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    #7
    Rigsby
    Registered Users Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Rigsby


    Danye wrote: »
    The only problem I have even with this is, how can you decide you are your thoughts one minute but then not your thoughts??

    Yes, what you described about the book does seem confusing.

    My interpretation from what I have read on the subject is that we are not our thoughts and when they arise, be they good bad or ugly, we should treat them equally in a neutral manner by simply acknowledging that they are present and then, without getting involved in their message, let them go.

    Deciding to "choose better, more uplifting and positive thoughts" as described in the book, in my humble opinion implies attachment and striving for a goal, which in turn implies the future, which obviously has no part of being "in the now".


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    #8
    Fathom
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Danye wrote: »
    The book is "Stop thinking and start living" and it seems to be that the book could be mainly aimed at people who are going through or living with depression. His view is that it's your negative thoughts alone that are making you depressed as everything comes back to your thoughts and as humans we're predisposed to be negative. So initially he says that your thoughts aren't actually real and hold no validity.
    If this falls into the self-help genre, I would be cautious about the rigor of statements made. Are they anecdotal, or case study based, or drawn from scholarly research?
    Danye wrote: »
    He then explains how to watch your thoughts which by default brings you into the present moment where from there you can decide to choose better, more uplifting and positive thoughts which will then in turn lead you out of your depression.
    Reminds me of cognitivist subjectivism. To equate a moral property like having a positive attitude towards virtually everything that one encounters in life. Such property being approved by some person or group that the subject identifies as exhibiting truth.
    Danye wrote: »
    It seems to be that he tries to, 1- disarm or dissociate you from your current (negative) thoughts (You are not your thoughts) 2 - tell you to monitor your thoughts which brings you into the present moment 3- where you can then decide to choose better thoughts which will make you and / or your life better. Which brings you back to you are your thoughts.
    To what extent does this exhibit a circular reasoning fallacy?
    Danye wrote: »
    The only problem I have even with this is, how can you decide you are your thoughts one minute but then not your thoughts??
    Hence, the ambiguity.


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    #9
    roosh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭roosh


    Danye wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I’m new to these parts and I’m not sure if it’s the correct forum to post but I recently read a book by Richard Carlson.

    In one of the earlier chapters of this book he said “As you think so you shall be”

    But then in a later chapter he said “You are not your thoughts”

    This is causing me some confusion. Is what he’s saying not contradictory?

    Thanks

    I'm not familiar with the author but these two ideas seem to echo the teachings of Buddhism.

    It sounds like the idea 'we become what we think'. So, if we are continuously thinking about how we can never succeed at anything, then we will probably end up giving up on endeavours before we achieve success, thus becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    The latter, 'you are not your thoughts' sounds like the idea in Buddhist philosophy of attachment to 'the Self'. Basically, we believe that the 'voice' in our head is who we are. This voice that tells us we will never succeed (in some cases it might tell us that we will definitely succeed). But this voice and all its thoughts are not who we truly are. That voice/those thoughts are just a result of our conditioning. The idea, as some have mentioned already, is to become aware of our attachment to these thoughts and notice how we don't actually control them. We can't stop them. It's not really 'I' who is doing the thinking, the thoughts just arise and fall away incessantly.


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    #10
    prosaic
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭prosaic


    In the Dharmapada, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada, "twin verses", it talks about how thoughts form our reality. We can use mindfulness and awareness to adopt thought patterns that are helpful and let go of thought patterns that are not helpful.

    Ultimately the aim is to go beyond thoughts and concepts. This is the true "being in the moment". Counterintuitively, if one achieves this level, it is still possible to think and act while still maintaining the full realization of the unreality of thoughts and concepts. In that state there is no attachment or aversion to anything whatsoever, no separation of self and other. Reality is experienced as it is. It's flavour is described as being wisdom and love.

    A far cry from my own state.


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    #11
    Fathom
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Danye wrote: »
    As you think so you shall be?
    Variation on thought. You learn to drive. While doing so, you have to concentrate. Think what you are doing. After practice, it becomes routine. You no longer have to think. Your driving actions become automatic (i.e., automaticity). What you once thought, "shall;" now "you...be."


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    #12
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Reminds me of Alan Watts this discussion...

    There was a young man who said though, it seems that I know that I know, but what I would like to see is the I that knows me when I know that I know that I know.


    Love that quote.



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    #13
    Fathom
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561335#Comment_118561335

    British philosopher Alan Watts. Popularized eastern philosophy in the west. The Ego and the Universe one such work. Died 1973 in tiny Mt Tamalpais, California. A fitting place for his messages.



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    #14
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    I love the thought of being able to look at yourself that way though. I can, with reflection, know what my influences are when I make a decision. That's the "I that knows me when I know that I know".

    Going above that again and trying to find the core you, the "better" you...the "I that knows me when I know that I know that I know". That drive for improving oneself....I love that it's all futile and there is no better self...just you, no other version.



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    #15
    Fathom
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562735#Comment_118562735

    “With reflection.” Reminds me of Wilhelm Wundt’s introspection. At his lab in Leipzig Germany he studied sensations and feelings.



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    #16
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Haven't read any of his work. Will do now though so thank you for the recommendation.



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    #17
    Fathom
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 9,001 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118573886#Comment_118573886

    Read something about Wundt being the father of psychology. Not sure about this. He did exhibit early studies in experimental psychology, way before it became an accepted practice, and one of the dimensions of the psychology discipline.



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