Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

iamwhoiam · 31-01-2019 10:46pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So we should subsidize nurses training then once they finish they get to fly off into the sun???

So we better hold on to every other graduate who pisses off too and shackle them to the desks until they cough up the fees ? I don't think you really understand the system

wrangler · 31-01-2019 10:47pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Which had NOTHING to do with nurses or other public sector workers and all to do with bankers and politicians and regulators who let them lend €9 for every €1 on deposit and then let them just make up figures on a screen.

But but but the supposed regulators were paid civil servants......the secrets in the name ''Public service''

31-01-2019 10:48pm

Goldengirl wrote: »

I can't believe you would attribute that to nursing. Nurses are to the fore in ensuring the best care for their patients . Lack of beds and theatre space is outside our control and can only be fixed by better staffing levels. Which is what we are looking for. We have never obstructed change and even that pay commission accepted that nurses productivity, ie working unpaid extra hours , was what was saving the health service.

What did I attribute to Nurses specifically ? We have one of the most costly public health services in the OECD but far from one of the best. In addition, many people pay for costly private health insurance because they cannot rely on the public system, which they already pay for. Now we are being asked to pay more.

Individuals may work hard but our public health service is too costly and not fit for purpose - it is grossly inefficient and often ineffective. I am not suggesting that nurses bear sole, or even primarily, responsibility for this. All groups play their part, whether clinical or non-clinical, from top to bottom. And each will say "its not us -we don't have control".

But the unions, including the nursing unions, have been and are major obstacles to change. Pouring more money into an unreformed service will achieve nothing interms of improvement.Let there be reform first without preconditions (what's in it for us?) and then look at wages, allowances,etc.

mikeym · 31-01-2019 10:49pm

I work in a job that has massive retention issues that arent being addressed, so I sympathise with the nurses.

jay0109 · 31-01-2019 10:52pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Which had NOTHING to do with nurses or other public sector workers and all to do with bankers and politicians and regulators who let them lend €9 for every €1 on deposit and then let them just make up figures on a screen.

Wrong. So wrong.

The banks went belly up and required a 60bn bail out.
Meanwhile there was also a huge hole in the public finances that required a similar bail out as the tax revenues had dried up. The Govt had to keep paying Teachers, Nurses etc despite the fall off in revenue. And that despite some pay and pension cuts

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 10:52pm

wrangler wrote:

Shure we might as well try bankrupt it again, put future generations into even more debt, we owe it to our children

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

jay0109 · 31-01-2019 10:53pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

Economic revisionism is strong on the PS/CS side of the house

Goldengirl · 31-01-2019 11:12pm

noodler wrote: »

I've read nothing of the sort.

Some people don't want to accept allowances but tis sourced from the people who actually pay the salaries.

Well if you can't read the thread I'm not going to direct you to the various posts. Are you a child that you have to be spoonfed?
I don't know what you are talking about because it doesn't make sense really. I am happy to accept allowances, if I work the antisocial hours that earn those allowances.I don't accept them as basic salary however so that rules that out. Nowhere do they publish extra premia for physios or pharmacists as part of their salary, and rightly so , because some work nights and weekends, others may not , or may work a different amount or may have differing qualifications.
Who are these "people who pay the salaries" ? Is it in their interest to give accurate pay scales or misleading averages that include premia payments that only confuse the issue of what nurses get paid ?
Nurses payscales are public knowledge and are far from what those figures say . I would direct you to the post earlier in the thread that gives all the figures. But you are too lazy to read the thread to find the posts , and are happy to just make spurious statements. Come back to the debate when you have facts.

Goldengirl · 31-01-2019 11:19pm

bcklschaps wrote: »

Back in the day Civil servants (including Members of Parliament/Ministers etc.) were very well looked after (Salary + extras) in Ireland compared to Civil Servants in other countries...is that no longer the case ?

I think the example of Nurses going to the Middle East or Austrailia for big salaries etc. is fallacious....these are private sector contracts and do not come wth the host of extras that working for the Irish state gives. If I am a Civil Engineer working for the state here I do NOT expect the same Salary as I would if I was working in an Austrailian Lithium Mine.

No , but you will get credited for your qualification and experience when you come to pension age and will get added years for that, which we do not .Worth about 4 years at least , isn't it?
But that is what your union fought for , so good luck to you then. But don't be bashing others looking for their rights.

Goldengirl · 31-01-2019 11:23pm

jay0109 wrote: »

Economic revisionism is strong on the PS/CS side of the house

The only reason public/ civil service pay was an issue is because the ECB and IMF made it so, as the only way the bankers could have their cake and eat it. Nurses did not contribute to the crash.

Topgear on Dave · 31-01-2019 11:26pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

And billions and billions of that "credit out of thin air" went into the public purse during the boom.

Benchmarking, social welfare increases, all those new motorways etc etc etc

hawkelady · 31-01-2019 11:30pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

And billions and billions of that "credit out of thin air" went into the public purse during the boom.

Benchmarking, social welfare increases, all those new motorways etc etc etc

Another pathetic comment !!! In your view then , if Ireland stayed in the bloody 1940s we’d be alright !
You’re literally giving out cause we upgraded our infrastructure...

jay0109 · 31-01-2019 11:32pm

Goldengirl wrote: »

The only reason public/ civil service pay was an issue is because the ECB and IMF made it so, as the only way the bankers could have their cake and eat it. Nurses did not contribute to the crash.

Basic economics- the Govt has to pay out X in wages each year but only took in Y.
That is why it was an issue...the Govt didn't have the money to pay it's employees and required a bailout for that. The ECB and IMF said they'd cover the gap with loans but cuts had to be made to what were some of the highest paid Civil Servants on the planet.

This is not new news. This is well known to everyone and anyone who follows political and economic issues with even the most basic level of interest

Twenty Grand · 01-02-2019 12:25am

jay0109 wrote: »

Basic economics- the Govt has to pay out X in wages each year but only took in Y.
That is why it was an issue...the Govt didn't have the money to pay it's employees and required a bailout for that. The ECB and IMF said they'd cover the gap with loans but cuts had to be made to what were some of the highest paid Civil Servants on the planet.

This is not new news. This is well known to everyone and anyone who follows political and economic issues with even the most basic level of interest

Basic business. If you want the best you need to pay for it.
If your competitors (non Irish hospitals) have better conditions or pay or lifestyle you need to offer something to attract the best staff.

It's not like there's thousands of people queueing up to work in Irish hospitals.

Miike · 01-02-2019 12:30am

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Basic business. If you want the best you need to pay for it.
If your competitors (non Irish hospitals) have better conditions or pay or lifestyle you need to offer something to attract the best staff.

It's not like there's thousands of people queueing up to work in Irish hospitals.

and nurse graduates from this country are being hunted by international competitors both public and private. We have one of the highest standards of Nurse Education on the planet and the cost of that is they will leave for better conditions being offered. Irish nurses are in high demand.

01-02-2019 12:37am

Goldengirl wrote: »

I am happy to accept allowances, if I work the antisocial hours that earn those allowances.I don't accept them as basic salary however so that rules that out.
.

We seem to be having great difficulty establshing what the average annual wage paid in nursing actually is.

You and others dismiss a figure of €57K that has been quoted by the DPER. Yet you only refer to basic pay scales, which do not tell us what average total pay is after allowances and premia, and which includes all grades -CNM, CNS, Nursing Director, etc. The anti-social hours may not suit you but they do suit some and will be coveted by others.

According to the HSE the average staff nurse/midwife earns over €11000 per year in allowances - and they should know (if anyone knows anything in the HSE). Now perhaps you will dispute the accuracy of this figure, but whatever the actual figure is, I think most people will consider it relevant.

Twenty Grand · 01-02-2019 12:43am

Of someone asked me what I earned, I'd state the figure on my contract. I wouldnt add in my bonus, my overtime, my employers pension contributions and my expenses and any other cash I earn on the side during the year.
When my pay is being reviewed, the only figure thats used is trying number on my contract.

1641 wrote: »

You and others dismiss a figure of €57K .

Can you do me a favour and show me where that figure is? I've read the report and can't find 57k.

Miike · 01-02-2019 12:44am

1641 wrote: »

We seem to be having great difficulty establshing what the average annual wage paid in nursing actually is.

You and others dismiss a figure of €57K that has been quoted by the DPER. Yet you only refer to basic pay scales, which do not tell us what average total pay is after allowances and premia, and which includes all grades -CNM, CNS, Nursing Director, etc. The anti-social hours may not suit you but they do suit some and will be coveted by others.

According to the HSE the average staff nurse/midwife earns over €11000 per year in allowances - and they should know (if anyone knows anything in the HSE). Now perhaps you will dispute the accuracy of this figure, but whatever the actual figure is, I think most people will consider it relevant.

Because it's a like-for-like comparison to compare basic to basic.
I can honestly say I don't know a single nurse or CNS earning 57k otherwise I wouldn't dispute the figure.

Also if I was to calculate your average wage and include all the senior level staff above you in that average, would you say it's a fair representation of what people on your level earn?

cameramonkey · 01-02-2019 12:45am

Ipso wrote: »

How much extra tax are you willing to pay for their rise?

How much does the incompetence of the childrens hospital cost, The lesson is money can be found if it is needed for overpriced hospitals or overpriced politician. FG dont want to pay the nurse because they don't really value them the same way the value themselves and their friends.

jay0109 · 01-02-2019 12:46am

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Basic business. If you want the best you need to pay for it.
If your competitors (non Irish hospitals) have better conditions or pay or lifestyle you need to offer something to attract the best staff.

It's not like there's thousands of people queueing up to work in Irish hospitals.

Ah ok, so we're moving away from the economics angle now. And on to having the 'best' and paying top dollar for them.

How do we get better conditions to make nurses happy:
Stop letting Unions and outdated work practices from the 20th century dictate today's 21st century health service?
Introduce more flexibility into day to day working and rostering etc?
Tackle sick days?
Allow for the firing of the inept, the lazy and those not up to the job?

Miike · 01-02-2019 12:48am

jay0109 wrote: »

Ah ok, so we're moving away from the economics angle now. And on to having the 'best' and paying top dollar for them.

How do we get better conditions to make nurses happy:
Stop letting Unions and outdated work practices from the 20th century dictate today's 21st century health service?
Introduce more flexibility into day to day working and rostering etc?
Tackle sick days?
Allow for the firing of the inept, the lazy and those not up to the job?

1) This is already in practice (ish) - Some unions are a joke, that's for sure.
2)They tried this and the revoked most of the schemes they introduced.
3) In what sense can sick days be tackled?
4) NMBI strike people off the register regularly for not adhering to the strict guidelines, laws and policies governing nursing practice. Which brings to the fore: How can nurses practice safely if conditions don't provide for safe practice?

jay0109 · 01-02-2019 12:48am

cameramonkey wrote: »

How much does the incompetence of the childrens hospital cost, The lesson is money can be found if it is needed for overpriced hospitals or overpriced politician. FG dont want to pay the nurse because they don't really value them the same way the value themselves and their friends.

That's not really saying anything of value - just broad strokes and generalisations.

The extra money being found for the debacle at StJames will mean less hospital upgrades elsewhere. It's not magic money that's being thrown at it...the overrun will hit capital projects for the next 5 to 10 years.

Twenty Grand · 01-02-2019 12:48am

jay0109 wrote: »

Ah ok, so we're moving away from the economics angle now. And on to having the 'best' and paying top dollar for them.

How do we get better conditions to make nurses happy:
Stop letting Unions and outdated work practices from the 20th century dictate today's 21st century health service?
Introduce more flexibility into day to day working and rostering etc?
Tackle sick days?
Allow for the firing of the inept, the lazy and those not up to the job?

I think that would be perfect. All great ideas.

jay0109 · 01-02-2019 12:51am

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I think that would be perfect. All great ideas.

And zero chance of them coming into play. We don't do real reform in Ireland's CS/PS.
But people think throwing hundreds of millions of euro's at nurse wages will solve most issues. That will fix nothing and we'll be back here again in 10 yrs time with the same debate

noodler · 01-02-2019 12:54am

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Which had NOTHING to do with nurses or other public sector workers and all to do with bankers and politicians and regulators who let them lend €9 for every €1 on deposit and then let them just make up figures on a screen.

Don't be silly.

We spent ridiculous amounts of money on pay increases, social welfare, roads and everything under the sun and reduced tax across the board using revenues based on construction.

Now, if we could only not make the mistake of overextending ourselves again so we don't have to cut so much at the next crash...

[Deleted User] · 01-02-2019 12:55am

Seeming as people are referring to 21st century healthcare.
You know what is the biggest problem for the HSE. You, the public. If ye didn't smoke, drink, become fat pricks, do drugs,we would have a manageable health service. But no, the Irish public feel they can do what they want, bringing the added stress on the health service. Grow up and take some responsibility and then you can have less pay in the health service.
The main leach on the health service is the public.

cameramonkey · 01-02-2019 1:03am

jay0109 wrote: »

That's not really saying anything of value - just broad strokes and generalisations.

The extra money being found for the debacle at StJames will mean less hospital upgrades elsewhere. It's not magic money that's being thrown at it...the overrun will hit capital projects for the next 5 to 10 years.

Its a choice FG made, they prefer to throw 1 billion away on a project that is out of control and way beyond expensive rather than manage the budget properly. That is their politics, like they will do not want to pay the nurses because it is against their political outlook. They can find money when they want it for things that the agree ideologically with like give away cash for property developers.

Wheeliebin30 · 01-02-2019 1:04am

cameramonkey wrote: »

How much does the incompetence of the childrens hospital cost, The lesson is money can be found if it is needed for overpriced hospitals or overpriced politician. FG dont want to pay the nurse because they don't really value them the same way the value themselves and their friends.

FG will be hit hard in the polls and votes with this.

You think they are taking this stance for fun????

Wheeliebin30 · 01-02-2019 1:07am

cameramonkey wrote: »

Its a choice FG made, they prefer to trow 1 billion away on a project that is out of control and way beyond expensive rather than manage the budget properly. That is their politics, like they will do not want to pay the nurses because it is against their political outlook. They can find money when they want it for things that the agree ideologically with like give away cash for property developers.

What outlook???

What is their politics?

What property developers??

Please some credible answers.

coolshannagh28 · 01-02-2019 1:13am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, public debt didn't cause the crash, it was the rapid rise of private debt caused by the creation of credit out of thin air by financial institutions, it was in fact these same institutions that went bankrupt during the crash, and the rest is history

The rapid rise of PS/CS pay under the guise of benchmarking during the time of Bertienomics stressed the moneytree leading to private sector collapse actually.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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