Military Archery in Medieval Ireland

IrishSlinger · 29-04-2013 3:04pm

tac foley wrote: »

I found THIS in wiki - from the Guiness Book of Records -

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, the current record for the greatest distance achieved in hurling an object from a sling is: 477.10 m (1,565 ft 3 in), using a 127 cm (50 in) long sling and a 62 g (2.2 oz) dart. This was achieved by David Engvall at Baldwin Lake, California, USA on 13 September 1992. Those of a more traditional bent may prefer the Guinness record for slinging a stone: 437.10 m (1,434 ft 1 in), using a 129.5 cm (51.0 in) long sling and a 52 g (1.8 oz) ovoid stone, set by Larry Bray in Loa, Utah, USA on 21 August 1981.

More on composite/self/flat/recurved/reflexed bows in a minute.

tac

David Engvall to my knowledge used a Kaestrosphendone sling, one that fires a dart.

He most probably made his sling using synthetic materials such as paracord. I mainly use slings made from natural materials available to any slinger from any period of history such as leather, plant fibres, sinew, wool etc. I have fired a 3oz biconical lead fishing sinker at best estimate 250 metres using a sling I braided from dune grass that grows along the Meath coast. Further still with a longer sling made from synthetic yarn.

As I know very little about bows or the historical periods being discussed I was curious to see if the Irish would bother to use bows over slings, seeing as they had a history of using slings.

I have never fired a sling at an armoured man(there is a distinct lack of them these days!) but there are lots of Greek and Roman accounts of lead glandes denting and breaking bronze armour and embedding themselves in torsos.

pedroeibar1 · 29-04-2013 3:34pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Hardly.
For a start I'd argue they're not "rivets" he's drawing, plus it's unlikely he got close enough to feel it's skin and even if he did it would feel like thick scales. He clearly saw this animal, .........................ect.

Of course this doesn't mean he saw Irish bows and bowmen and it's up in the air whether he conjured them up out of what he thought they'd look like, but I would contend that if he had seen them his rendition would be accurate. How accurate is he regarding more local arms? How accurate is he regarding other aspects of the Irishmen at arms. I do note he shows the glib/long fringe on the Irishmen, so he at least heard of that, if not observed it.

Wibbs,
You are now arguing my side for me. My point all along has been that Durer never saw the rhino, nor did he see Irish troops or bows IN IRELAND. It is highly probable that he saw Irish troops/mercenaries on the Continent, and if so he would have drawn them accurately. However, in modern-day terms, just because there are some photos of me using a (borrowed) over & under shotgun when shooting in the UK does not mean that I use a similar gun in Ireland (I don’t, I use a S x S.)

A description of the rhinoceros soon reached Nuremberg, presumably with sketches, from which Dürer prepared this drawing and woodcut.
No rhinoceros had been seen in Europe for over 1000 years, so Dürer had to work solely from these reports. He has covered the creature's legs with scales and the body with hard, patterned plates. Perhaps these features interpret lost sketches, or even the text, which states, '[The rhinoceros] has the colour of a speckled tortoise and it is covered with thick scales'.
So convincing was Dürer's fanciful creation that for the next 300 years European illustrators borrowed from his woodcut, even after they had seen living rhinoceroses without plates and scales.

From the British Museum site here

Neutronale · 29-04-2013 3:46pm

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - answering the last part of your post last, no, no medieval self-bow was capable of shooting much above 200 yards or so - if you read the contemporary accounts, and then move on to modern versions of the same thing.

On the other hand, I'm VERY interested in your claim that you can sling a bullet or other form of projectile as far as 300m - can you give me the source, or is this from your own experience?

And lastly - as a former member of the British Longbow Society and occasional backyard archer, I'm still trying to find ANY reference at all to the use of composite bows in England, Wales and Ireland in the period we are discussing. Would anybody here with clear evidence for the use of anything but a self-bow by the archers of the British Isles and Ireland please provide it.

tac

Good to have a bit of input from an expert rather than a theorist - like meself :rolleyes:

There's a vid on yt showing an American archer hitting a football sized balloon at 200 yards, which is a phenomenal shot.

http://youtu.be/Fgl-KQt0-AI

Evidence for reflex bows we have already gone over, whether you believe this is evidence for or not is in the eye of the beholder.

One eyewitness (1397) stated the short Irish bow hit as hard as the English longbow. Another (1517) stated the bow he saw was a "Turkish" bow. Between those and the images above I think warrants further thought and discussion.

tac foley · 29-04-2013 4:07pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Good to have a bit of input from an expert rather than a theorist - like meself :rolleyes:

There's a vid on yt showing an American archer hitting a football sized balloon at 200 yards, which is a phenomenal shot.

http://youtu.be/Fgl-KQt0-AI

Evidence for reflex bows we have already gone over, whether you believe this is evidence for or not is in the eye of the beholder.

One eyewitness (1397) stated the short Irish bow hit as hard as the English longbow. Another (1517) stated the bow he saw was a "Turkish" bow. Between those and the images above I think warrants further thought and discussion.

Well for sure by then any historian of the time would have heard of the Turkish style bow - the Seljuk Turks even made bows out of flexible iron, though, having shot one, it was not a pleasant experience as it kicked in the wrist like badly fitting boxing glove hitting an anvil. I'll be honest, and admit that I have never even considered any form of Irish bow - indeed, the very notion of it is outside my scant and lessening knowledge. Our American shooter, immensely skilled professional as he is, is not using a bow that would have been familiar to ANYBODY before about 1975 or even later. The modern compound bow required the invention of fibreglass and composite materials in such as carbon-fibre and in futuristic string materials - known as Fastflite - to become a reality that didn't disintegrate in the hand on shooting. Even his arrows were pretty much a far-off future even thirty years ago - who would have thought of making arrows out of carbon fibre? Carbon WHAT? Even his sight is a space-age product - a holographic sight fer gosh sakes.....and 311 fps from a BOW?

tac

Neutronale · 29-04-2013 10:16pm

tac foley wrote: »

Well for sure by then any historian of the time would have heard of the Turkish style bow - the Seljuk Turks even made bows out of flexible iron, though, having shot one, it was not a pleasant experience as it kicked in the wrist like badly fitting boxing glove hitting an anvil. I'll be honest, and admit that I have never even considered any form of Irish bow - indeed, the very notion of it is outside my scant and lessening knowledge. Our American shooter, immensely skilled professional as he is, is not using a bow that would have been familiar to ANYBODY before about 1975 or even later. The modern compound bow required the invention of fibreglass and composite materials in such as carbon-fibre and in futuristic string materials - known as Fastflite - to become a reality that didn't disintegrate in the hand on shooting. Even his arrows were pretty much a far-off future even thirty years ago - who would have thought of making arrows out of carbon fibre? Carbon WHAT? Even his sight is a space-age product - a holographic sight fer gosh sakes.....and 311 fps from a BOW?

tac

Do you assign any significance to the fact that a witness saw Irishmen in Ireland using bows he considered similar to Turkish bows?

Vid: I understand its a modern bow etc, but it does illustrate what can be done with a bow in terms of accuracy and range.

tac foley · 29-04-2013 10:26pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Do you assign any significance to the fact that a witness saw Irishmen in Ireland using bows he considered similar to Turkish bows?

Vid: I understand its a modern bow etc, but it does illustrate what can be done with a bow in terms of accuracy and range.

Well, as I explained, I have never made a study of archery in Ireland at any time before reading this post. It simply never crossed my mind to do so. You can laugh all you like, but in the main, my impressions of pre-Norman Ireland have been gotten by reading Peter Tremayne's 'Fidelma' books. I don't recall bows being mentioned in them, either, athough, in fairness the yarns ARE set in the mid 7th century...

It's also fair to say that one does not automatically think of 'bows' and 'the Irish' in the same train of thought.

Sorry 'bout that.

tac

Neutronale · 30-04-2013 10:16pm

Interesting commentary on Viking archery from 1140, "arrow-storm" no less...

"Thy arrow-storm on Mynne's banks
Fast thinn'd the foemen's strongest ranks;
Thy good sword hewed the raven's feast
On Mynne's banks up in the East.

Shield clashed on shield, and bucklers broke
Under thy battle-axe's stroke;
While thou, uncovered, urged the fray,
Thy shield and mail-coat thrown away."

..........

"At Skarpasker the English horse
Retire before the Norse king's force:
The arrow-shower like snow-drift flew,
And the shield-covered foemen slew."

tac foley · 30-04-2013 10:57pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Interesting commentary on Viking archery from 1140, "arrow-storm" no less...

"Thy arrow-storm on Mynne's banks
Fast thinn'd the foemen's strongest ranks;
Thy good sword hewed the raven's feast
On Mynne's banks up in the East.

Shield clashed on shield, and bucklers broke
Under thy battle-axe's stroke;
While thou, uncovered, urged the fray,
Thy shield and mail-coat thrown away."

..........

"At Skarpasker the English horse
Retire before the Norse king's force:
The arrow-shower like snow-drift flew,
And the shield-covered foemen slew."

Source, please. Mynne? Skarpasker? English horse?

Thanks.

tac

pedroeibar1 · 30-04-2013 11:27pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Interesting commentary on Viking archery from 1140, "arrow-storm" no less...

"Thy arrow-storm on Mynne's banks
Fast thinn'd the foemen's strongest ranks;
Thy good sword hewed the raven's feast
On Mynne's banks up in the East.

Shield clashed on shield, and bucklers broke
Under thy battle-axe's stroke;
While thou, uncovered, urged the fray,
Thy shield and mail-coat thrown away."

FAIL
That battle (part of the old tales of Sigurd the Bad) took place in summer 1137 (not 1140) in the uplands of Norway. It has no relevance to Irish archery.
Furthermore, the verses you quote are a translation from the saga of Sigurd Slembe, part of a trilogy written in 1862 by the Norwegian (and Noble Prize winner, 1903) Bjornstjerne Bjornson. The English translation you have used is by William Morton Payne and was published c. 1888.

All this stuff would be better placed in a thread dedicated to re-enactors, history it ain’t.

Simon.d · 30-04-2013 11:52pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

FAIL
That battle (part of the old tales of Sigurd the Bad) took place in summer 1137 (not 1140) in the uplands of Norway. It has no relevance to Irish archery.
Furthermore, the verses you quote are a translation from the saga of Sigurd Slembe, part of a trilogy written in 1862 by the Norwegian (and Noble Prize winner, 1903) Bjornstjerne Bjornson. The English translation you have used is by William Morton Payne and was published c. 1888.

All this stuff would be better placed in a thread dedicated to re-enactors, history it ain’t.

Seems this thread is a bit low brow for an eminent scholar like yourself...

Neutronale · 01-05-2013 10:15am

tac foley wrote: »

Source, please. Mynne? Skarpasker? English horse?

Thanks.

tac

My bad

http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/herdebreid.html

tac foley · 01-05-2013 11:35am

Neutronale wrote: »

My bad

http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/herdebreid.html

Don't hang yourself, the first person here to claim he's never made a mistake of any kind will be descending from heaven with scores of chorusing angels on either side.

tac

Neutronale · 01-05-2013 11:57am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

FAIL
That battle (part of the old tales of Sigurd the Bad) took place in summer 1137 (not 1140) in the uplands of Norway. It has no relevance to Irish archery.
Furthermore, the verses you quote are a translation from the saga of Sigurd Slembe, part of a trilogy written in 1862 by the Norwegian (and Noble Prize winner, 1903) Bjornstjerne Bjornson. The English translation you have used is by William Morton Payne and was published c. 1888.

All this stuff would be better placed in a thread dedicated to re-enactors, history it ain’t.

Fail? Lol, what are you, 14?

I never said it had anything directly to do with Ireland, I thought it was an interesting comment on Viking use of archery.

I didnt know it was 19th century, thought it was 12th century so its obviously of less interest.

robp · 01-05-2013 7:26pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

FAIL
That battle (part of the old tales of Sigurd the Bad) took place in summer 1137 (not 1140) in the uplands of Norway. It has no relevance to Irish archery.
Furthermore, the verses you quote are a translation from the saga of Sigurd Slembe, part of a trilogy written in 1862 by the Norwegian (and Noble Prize winner, 1903) Bjornstjerne Bjornson. The English translation you have used is by William Morton Payne and was published c. 1888.

All this stuff would be better placed in a thread dedicated to re-enactors, history it ain’t.

Norway is not necessary. There is reference to archery at the battle of Clontarf.

Neutronale · 02-05-2013 7:19am

robp wrote: »

Norway is not necessary. There is reference to archery at the battle of Clontarf.

Do you have a link for that?

robp · 02-05-2013 3:06pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Do you have a link for that?

This article by Halpin covers it on the first page. http://www.archerie-primitive.com/articles/Military%20Archery%20in%20Medieval%20Ireland.pdf

Not sure that I am an expert but I know a bit. I am away from the place I store my hobby stuff like bows back in Ireland but if you can wait 1-2 months I can send you pics.

Neutronale · 02-05-2013 3:46pm

La Honda, I imagine against unarmoured troops, these boys would be pretty effective...

http://youtu.be/nj4_3ynNj8o

In this vid you get the attackees pov, nasty...

http://youtu.be/Qx-eifMe984

IrishSlinger · 03-05-2013 2:34pm

Neutronale wrote: »

La Honda, I imagine against unarmoured troops, these boys would be pretty effective...

http://youtu.be/nj4_3ynNj8o

In this vid you get the attackees pov, nasty...

http://youtu.be/Qx-eifMe984

Here are some very accurate slingers from Majorca,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNimz7JCTiI

They are not even using aerodynamic glandes and can still get impressive accuracy and power. Their slings are quite short, intended for accuracy not range. IMO the Balearic islanders past and present make the most efficient slings like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY7EOspW594

At 0:13 is a great close up of his Balearic style split pouch sling.

Id argue that against armoured troops they are just as effective. Sling stones and lead glandes will dent and crack armour. A bronze breastplate pushed inwards will potentially crush the wearers ribs or chest. Obviously against later Roman troops wearing mail or segmented plate with with a better scutum slingers arent as effective. I wonder what the morale effect of a hail of arrows is versus a hail of lead or stones? You can see the arrows, you cant see the lead.

tac foley · 03-05-2013 4:29pm

Balearic slingers were much used by the Roman Army as auxiliaries. I would not care to be within a hundred meters of ANY professional slinger. A very distant relative of mine got a mention in the Bible as a slinger when he was a comparatively young boy.

tac

Simon.d · 04-05-2013 9:03pm

Neutronale wrote: »

There are two other images of Scots archers carrying recurve bows of this type that I know of. Although these examples are at the end of the period in question, the fact of the existence of a technologically advanced (relative to the simple bow) form of the bow among the Gaelic people would suggest that archery was part of the array of weaponry in the Gaelic armies arsenal.

Another depiction of this scene from c1630..

Neutronale · 05-05-2013 4:00pm

Simon.d wrote: »

Another depiction of this scene from c1630..

Interesting, I've never seen this before.

It seems like more styalised, fancy-full version of the first.

The central figure seems out of place...

Neutronale · 12-05-2013 8:40pm

Here's an interesting account of battle preparation, written in 1459 about events circa 1317, that includes putting on chain-mail, gathering round pebbles (for slinging) and low and behold, polishing up their bows :eek:

With dawn's first springing light Brian Rua's great hosting alertly rose, and throughout the camp anon grew buzz and clang and clamour of strong men as they harnessed their nobles, picked out their own weapons, placed and strapped on their helmets, fastened their collars' edges, made their mail secure, confirmed their swords in their belts, poised and brandished their javelins, gave their spears the whetstone, gathered their good store of round pebbles, and polished up their bows; [the captains] exhorting their men to stand to it, and to their gentlemen imparting the coming battle's tactics, while upon all they enjoined to quit themselves like men. Their colours being smoothly stretched to their lances, suddenly at last Donough's standard shot aloft and bodingly waved over all. So soon then as the columns had had their course set them, advantage of the wind also favouring such wisely chosen lines of march, the army's initial preparation was complete;

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100062/index.html

Neutronale · 12-05-2013 10:56pm

And there's more...

Here and close at hand ye have princely treasure-trove such that never have we seen any that was more precious and more profitable [than this now within your grasp], viz, that presently, and all united in one place, ye catch your gentle foes to slaughter them. Haughtily then go to meet them, and on them [hand to hand] make one mighty consummation of it all, so that their battalion's greater multitude waste you not with [preliminary] missile-play. Let your nobles arm, your warriors bare their swords, your people level their spears, your archers strain their bowstrings, and let all look to their stone-provision!’

Neutronale · 13-05-2013 10:09am

Initial encounter of two armies c1317 according to Caithréim Thoirdhealbhaigh, slings, javelins/darts and arrows feature...

All reached the dorsal ridge of the stubborn plain that shewed its bleached face varied with dark irregular seams; and they being there, at this first almost contact of the parties certain hot spirits in the way of challenge let fly with stones and javelins, darts and arrows, reciprocally. By these first contributions was established a darkling dropping mist, a showering cloud of pebbles and of splintering shafts, that assailed their heads and arms and legs; yea, so thickly that the spears flying would split each other and, in the malice of that pelting rain, stones turn the slender arrows' points.

IrishSlinger · 13-05-2013 2:34pm

Here is a link about the Battle of Najera in Spain in 1367 that features slingers versus English longbowmen, seeing as this is an archery thread!!

The Spanish slingers were outnumbered three to one by the English longbowmen and were thoroughly routed but not before getting off one fairly devastating volley that seems to have surprised the English whos men at arms took the brunt of the casualties despite being armoured.

The effective ranges were it seems similar, 200 metres for both the bowmen and slingers, although when the slingers fled the longbowmen could still hit them as they ran.

IrishSlinger · 13-05-2013 2:42pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Initial encounter of two armies c1317 according to Caithréim Thoirdhealbhaigh, slings, javelins/darts and arrows feature...

Ireland has a strong slinging past, as does Britain, but the Anglo-Saxons were the last proficient slingers in Britain while we were slinging well into the late middle ages. The Gaelic myth behind Dublin has a slinging link. The poetess Dubh was hit by a sling stone and fell into a pool or Linn beside the Liffey and the place was named after her.

Its a shame I am probably the only slinger in modern Ireland. The Tibetans, Spanish, Moroccans, Peruvians, Mexicans and indeed the Palestinians still sling mainly for sport. I should probably do a thread on it instead of hijacking this one!

Tordelback · 13-05-2013 3:22pm

In a bit more detail than Andy's article allows, from Todd's 1867 translation of the Cogadh, part of the wonderful description of the Dublin and Orkney Vikings at the Battle of Clontarf.

“...Bold hard-hearted Danmarkians, surly piratical foreigners [...] had for the purposes of their battle and combat, and for their defence, sharp, swift, bloody, crimsoned, bounding, barbed, keen, bitter, wounding, terrible, piercing, murderous, poisonous arrows, which had been annointed and browned in the blood of dragons [etc.]”

“They had with them hideous, barbarous quivers; and polished yellow-shining bows...”

The Cogadh is generally thought to date from the first half of the 12th C, so a century after the event, and is of course a top-notch piece of overwrought Munster propaganda that has endured as the popular view of events for nearly a millennium. But still: 11th/12th C bows, placed in the hands of the Hiberno-Norse of Dublin.

Returning to the OP for a second, the paper cited is 15 years old now, and Andy has since published a comprehensive catalogue and analysis of weaponry of the period: http://shop.museum.ie/p-80-weapons-and-warfare-in-viking-and-medieval-dublin.aspx

IrishSlinger · 17-05-2013 2:23pm

IrishSlinger wrote: »

Here is a link about the Battle of Najera in Spain in 1367 that features slingers versus English longbowmen, seeing as this is an archery thread!!

The Spanish slingers were outnumbered three to one by the English longbowmen and were thoroughly routed but not before getting off one fairly devastating volley that seems to have surprised the English whos men at arms took the brunt of the casualties despite being armoured.

The effective ranges were it seems similar, 200 metres for both the bowmen and slingers, although when the slingers fled the longbowmen could still hit them as they ran.

Forgot to post the link, so here it is http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/books/froissart/index.cfm?page=0175

Page 175 mentions it.

Merch · 18-06-2013 6:52pm

IrishSlinger wrote: »

Ireland has a strong slinging past, as does Britain, but the Anglo-Saxons were the last proficient slingers in Britain while we were slinging well into the late middle ages. The Gaelic myth behind Dublin has a slinging link. The poetess Dubh was hit by a sling stone and fell into a pool or Linn beside the Liffey and the place was named after her.

Its a shame I am probably the only slinger in modern Ireland. The Tibetans, Spanish, Moroccans, Peruvians, Mexicans and indeed the Palestinians still sling mainly for sport. I should probably do a thread on it instead of hijacking this one!

Where do you do this? what materials do you use?
I was looking for somewhere to post finding out about if there was anywhere that is involved in dealing in the traditional methods of living of Vikings or others in or near Ireland, how they made tools and weapons, maybe boats and how they lived??

Not so much reenactment

tac foley · 20-06-2013 4:56pm

IrishSlinger wrote: »

the Palestinians still sling mainly for sport.!

Is that a fact now? The only Palestinian slingers I've noticed in the last thirty something years were on the West Bank, slinging rocks at my friends and relatives in the IDF.

Still, one man's sport........

tac

Military Archery in Medieval Ireland

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