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Mother & baby home, Cork: only 64 of 900-plus baby graves found

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Spoke with a woman couple weeks back who is in her 50's with several children. She described the 'churching' practice done by the RCC in Ireland in what I think was the '80's and '90s. Apparently pregnant married women had to go through some sort of ritual repenting for having had sex.

    She didn't, and the local priest told her her child couldn't be baptized in her church. Some other priest overheard this, and outside the church, offered to baptize her child on the steps of the church. She told him to feck off and never stepped foot in the church again (had several other children subsequent to that one.) Not having her children baptized impacted which schools they could attend, too, but she knew then she wasn't going to subject them to Catholic dogma.

    So, punishing women for having sex, even within the 'holy bonds of matrimony' is an obsession in the RCC. I don't know if 'churching' still goes on, but other women of the same age as the one describing it to me said the same. Nasty, huh? RCC just loves subjugating women, imagine having gone through 'churching' and then trying to celebrate the birth of the child, with that niggling thought in the back of your mind that the joy of having had the child was based on doing something wrong. No wonder people leave the Church. Hopefully the RCC will die out in our lifetimes, or at least be out of any major role in Ireland's social order or government.

    The practice of “Churching” ended in the 1970’s.


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    #93
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    https://www.irishcatholic.com/tuam-babies-not-buried-in-septic-tank-report-confirms/

    Interesting article in the Irish Catholic.

    Basically = 'yes yes yes, all those babies died at a catholic institution (basically a prison/slave labor camp for 'sinful' mothers and their undesirable offspring), but more importantly we didn't bury them in a spetic tank, told ya!'

    All the while on the same page advertising an event called 'The future is pro-life'.

    Catlicks really are the gift that keeps giving.


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    #94
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    orourkeda1977 wrote: »
    I'd be surprised to hear this if the Nazis did it.

    To hear that it was caused by people of god in a "Catholic" and neutral country makes that little bit more horrifying to me.

    I've said it before but there were a couple of horses put down at the cheltenham and there was public outrage.

    Well said. Why has there not been a bigger outcry?


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    #95
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The practice of “Churching” ended in the 1970’s.


    One might have thought so, that it was a practice Vactican II put an end to, but there were apparently some parishes where “churching” was still practiced well into the 1980s.


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    #96
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    orourkeda1977 wrote: »
    If this was a dogs home or a stable, there would be a raft of protesters outside the door.

    Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?


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    #97
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

    There have often been protests outside Bessborough.
    There was also a 'shrine' of teddy bears but they were removed.


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

    Protest at what exactly? The Church or the unfortunate women’s families who abandoned them? We live in different times now. What good do you expect to come from protests? The families didn’t want the babies when they lived so why the outrage now?


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    #99
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,731 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

    You can protest by not playing the RCC's little game, not going to Mass, not making contributions of any kind, not putting kids through the sham of religious ceremonies but it seems people are still putting money into the church's grubby hands to make the industry worthwhile.


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    #100
    Daisy78
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Daisy78


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Protest at what exactly? The Church or the unfortunate women’s families who abandoned them? We live in different times now. What good do you expect to come from protests? The families didn’t want the babies when they lived so why the outrage now?

    Your missing the point. It’s the mistreatment of women and children in these institutions that’s the issue here. You stop short of criticising the cruelty that these individuals were subjected to. You think because this happened back thirty, forty years ago the church should be absolved of their actions? Please.

    Kind words, generosity of spirit, charity are not modern day inventions or standards. To say that we are subjecting the religious order to higher modern day standards is simply untrue. Blessed are the children applied only to legitimate offspring it would seem.


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    #101
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,408 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Daisy78 wrote: »
    Your missing the point. It’s the mistreatment of women and children in these institutions that’s the issue here. You stop short of criticising the cruelty that these individuals were subjected to. You think because this happened back thirty, forty years ago the church should be absolved of their actions? Please.

    Kind words, generosity of spirit, charity are not modern day inventions or standards. To say that we are subjecting the religious order to higher modern day standards is simply untrue. Blessed are the children applied only to legitimate offspring it would seem.


    They we're refused stitches after childbirth,pain relief,and not even allowed to moan during delivery.
    Torture chamber level of barbarism.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/survivor-gardai-should-question-nuns-918963.html


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    #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Daisy78 wrote: »
    Your missing the point. It’s the mistreatment of women and children in these institutions that’s the issue here. You stop short of criticising the cruelty that these individuals were subjected to. You think because this happened back thirty, forty years ago the church should be absolved of their actions? Please.

    Kind words, generosity of spirit, charity are not modern day inventions or standards. To say that we are subjecting the religious order to higher modern day standards is simply untrue. Blessed are the children applied only to legitimate offspring it would seem.

    You are forgetting the poor misfortune women’s families in all this. They were only too glad to rush them into these institutions and forget about them. In my eyes, they are equally as guilty as the Church.


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You are forgetting the poor misfortune women’s families in all this. They were only too glad to rush them into these institutions and forget about them. In my eyes, they are equally as guilty as the Church.

    Do you think that they knew exactly how their daughters were being treated or did they believe that was the best option for the girls in your opinion?


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    #104
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    kneemos wrote: »
    They we're refused stitches after childbirth,pain relief,and not even allowed to moan during delivery.
    Torture chamber level of barbarism.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/survivor-gardai-should-question-nuns-918963.html

    Dear F-ing Jesus these sadists are up there with the Nazis.


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    #105
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,669 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Men also suffered -it was nearly impossible for a widower to be 'allowed' to raise his children. Such children would be taken into 'care' - which meant an industrial school and all the horrors they contained. The general belief being that men just weren't capable to parent alone. Which we all know is B.S .

    And from my own family history, I can say this is bollox. My grandmother died in 1930-ish. The kids were send to live with neighbours and relations until they were old enough to not need minding all day, and could thus go home to live with their father, who was busy working the farm and so could not have stayed home to raise small children.


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Spoke with a woman couple weeks back who is in her 50's with several children. She described the 'churching' practice done by the RCC in Ireland in what I think was the '80's and '90s. Apparently pregnant married women had to go through some sort of ritual repenting for having had sex.

    She didn't, and the local priest told her her child couldn't be baptized in her church. Some other priest overheard this, and outside the church, offered to baptize her child on the steps of the church. She told him to feck off and never stepped foot in the church again (had several other children subsequent to that one.) Not having her children baptized impacted which schools they could attend, too, but she knew then she wasn't going to subject them to Catholic dogma.

    So it impacted which particular schools they could attend - but they were able to attend school, ie there were non-Catholic schools to go to. It was possible to earn a living and raise your children outside the church.

    To listen to some posters here, this was impossible. Clearly it wasn't.



    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do you think that they knew exactly how their daughters were being treated or did they believe that was the best option for the girls in your opinion?

    Of course they friggin' knew. So did the local judges, lawyers, guards, teachers, nurses, doctors. And didn't give a damn.


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do you think that they knew exactly how their daughters were being treated or did they believe that was the best option for the girls in your opinion?

    They wanted the “problem” out of sight of the neighbors. They didn’t give a damn about how their daughters were treated.


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    #107
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    They wanted the “problem” out of sight of the neighbors. They didn’t give a damn about how their daughters were treated.

    Yes thats true . Others at that time found a solition by passing a baby off as being the grandmothers . At least the baby was cared for im the family . I know personally of two families at least who did this in the 60's .
    I am not for one second saying it was right but certainly better than leaving the mother and child in the cruel care of nuns


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    #108
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Today is actually the 70th Anniversary of the Declaration of the Republic of Ireland - and as far as the rights of Irish women are concerned it took entry into the E.U. before any form of protection and equality was achieved.

    what did the EU do for women's rights? Ireland joined the EEC in 1973. As far as I can see it was feminist and atheist ideas from the rest of the Anglosphere that gave protection and equality


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    #109
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    There is a Cillín on my cousins farm. It's right across the road from our own farm and it's where my grandfather was born and raised. From what I gather, there were young unbaptised children buried there up to famine times.
    I've always known about it but recently I asked my cousin, who is in his late 80's, as to where it was exactly. He pointed to a small mound near the farm yard. There are no gravestones or markers of any sort.

    His grandson was telling me he won't let them park any machinery on it. Incredible to think he shows more respect to the dead buried there than our so called clergy did at the time.

    Info on Cilliní (plural);
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cill%C3%ADn
    http://map.geohive.ie/ allows you look at old maps, cillíns are usually marked as "Calluragh" or "Children's Burial Ground"


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    #110
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,681 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    goose2005 wrote: »
    http://map.geohive.ie/ allows you look at old maps, cillíns are usually marked as "Calluragh" or "Children's Burial Ground"

    Thanks. I had a look at that before. It's not marked.

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



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    #111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This in-depth article on Bessborough, and interview with a number of "fallen women" just appeared on the BBC website, Deirdre Finnerty, 'The Girls of Bessborough'

    The spine-chilling coldness of lines like 'Bridget and the other girls were only allowed to spend about 30 minutes with each child. She doesn’t remember any toys. “Some of the babies, they’d still hold their hands out. They didn’t want you to let go of them.” What sort of human being could resist a baby's cry for a hug, and what sort of damage does that do to that little child?

    Then there's this "it's all about money again" evidence of no child (because he died in the home), followed by a speedy eviction for the mother as the nuns could no longer make money from putting the child up for adoption. Jesus. Mary. Joseph.:
    There were punishments at Bessborough. Bridget was made to stand in the corner for hours while heavily pregnant.

    Her baby came three weeks early. Her waters broke in the middle of the night and she was shivering with cold.

    It was dark. Another girl guided her down to the labour ward.

    There was no pain relief and no kind words. Bridget’s baby boy was born on the third day of labour.... Bridget knew she would not be able to keep her son.
    ... For the first couple of days he was feeding well. But on the third day he had difficulty swallowing and started to get sick. So did Bridget. William’s health worsened and the other girls told her he had been put in the “dying room”.
    Bridget’s own health deteriorated too. She says she didn’t receive any medication. She begged the nuns to send for a doctor for William. They told her he had a congenital defect but Bridget has always believed this wasn’t the case.“Things stay in your memory that you cannot forget. He was a fighter - a good strong healthy baby, if he had got the proper treatment.” But she says it took a further 16 days for William to be sent to hospital. He died less than three weeks after that.

    Bridget didn’t get to see him. She says she wasn’t told where he was buried or anything more about what had happened    ..... She left the home just a week after William’s death. With no baby to give up for adoption, the home would no longer receive state funding for her.....It is estimated that somewhere between 7,000-10,000 mothers gave birth in Bessborough, according to journalist Conall Ó Fátharta who has followed the scandal closely.... Bessborough remained open until the late 1990s.


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    One really, really positive consequence of the advances in DNA testing is that it could become a game changer in helping victims of the homes find their real families despite all the falsified birth certificates, destroyed official documents and lies the children were told throughout the decades by the homes.

    This woman (read the full BBC article, even if it is long), who in 1937 as a 9-month-old was left on a hillside in England, found out she was born to an Irishwoman and found out her Irish family because she got matches to a DNA test she took in 2012. A very moving story which holds out great hope for finding some peace and closure for many child victims, and probably even for many of their parents if they're still alive.


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    #113
    happyday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭happyday


    If there is another thread on this please redirect me. I was very moved by seeing Noelle Brown on The Late Late on Friday. I hope they find out where all those babies are buried in time.


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    #114
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    happyday wrote: »
    If there is another thread on this please redirect me. I was very moved by seeing Noelle Brown on The Late Late on Friday. I hope they find out where all those babies are buried in time.


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058124483

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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