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Does anyone make much money in online poker?

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  • 29-01-2006 8:16pm
    #1
    digiman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,198 ✭✭✭


    I am pretty new to online poker, I started playing on VC BET and on Betfair in the last 2 months. I have probably lost around E30-E40 so far, at the start I would just join a table and then leave it after I doubled my money, we are only talking a euro or so, but enivetively I always seem to go down money so I stopped these playing in these type of games.
    I then started playing the tournaments when I joined betfair, the first 1 I ever playerd in I came 5th out of 180 and was in 2nd for quite a bit on the final table, but eventually bowed out in 5th. I won about E30 with a E3 buy in at the start. I then played a few of the 10 player tournaments and usually done pretty well, I came 2nd & 3rd a lot of times and won it once, but then I moved up to the bigger money and started to lose, maybe it was the fact that it was bigger money but I just could not play as well.
    What I am wondering is do you lads have a system that you do when you are playing online poker, say like once you have made or lost a certain amount for a day you call it quits and bank that amount, I was trying to come up with something like this but my displine at following these things can sometimes be bad, I just see the pound signs and keep going!
    I think I can definitely be good enough to make a few quid every week doing this but I just need some sort of system that I could bank the money when I am doing well.


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    #2
    Marq
    Registered Users Posts: 2,886 ✭✭✭Marq


    I wouldn't worry about it. Nobody's winning. It's rigged so that everyone loses except Betfair's Bots.


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    #3
    djkeogh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,738 ✭✭✭djkeogh


    well i stick to the one level in STT and play very small stakes all in. On the all in tables i usually bank my money once i have tripled it and then go back in at the starting level again. usually $5. I play the $2 stt on All IN and will stick at them until i have reached at least 100 times the buy-in for the $5 Stt's. I've constantly made 20-50 per night since sticking to this system so my balance is rising nicely so it works well for me.

    You need to come up with a system of your own and stick to it. it's all about discipline and not seeing the dollar signs too early as moving up too fast will break your balance.


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    #4
    The Snapper
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭The Snapper


    Check out this thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054879926


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    #5
    The Snapper
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭The Snapper


    djkeogh wrote:
    I play the $2 stt on All IN. I've constantly made 20-50 per night .
    Do you multi table and how many hours a night.


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    #6
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,292 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    digiman wrote:
    IWhat I am wondering is do you lads have a system that you do when you are playing online poker, say like once you have made or lost a certain amount for a day you call it quits and bank that amount, I was trying to come up with something like this but my displine at following these things can sometimes be bad, I just see the pound signs and keep going!

    digiman, I think its a bad idea to use these targets of 'win X' or 'lose X', and leave. You should be more concerned with game selection and the quality of the opposition.
    For example if you are the best player at a table, you are confident that the opposition are a load of drunken monkeys, then this is a good table to be at. Suddenly you are wickedly outdrawn 3 hands running and lose your 'X'. Do you leave?. No, it is still a good table for you, reload and keep playing.

    (Exceptions to this would be if you are liable to go 'on tilt' due to the bad beats, or reloading would effect your play cause you would be playing outside the comfort level of your bankroll).

    And obviously if you are winning X at this poor table, there is really no good reason to leave until the poor players leave, or you start getting tired.


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    #7
    fuzzbox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭fuzzbox


    A system for banking wins, or limiting losses wont help you one tiny bit, if you cant beat the game in the first place.


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    #8
    Hectorjelly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    You are taking completly the wrong approach. In order not to go broke you should limit the amount of your bankroll that is exposed at any one time. 5% is good starting point. That means if you have $100 the most you should be able to lose at any one time is $5.


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    #9
    digiman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,198 ✭✭✭digiman


    fuzzbox wrote:
    if you cant beat the game in the first place.
    This is probably a stupid question but was just wondering what you meant by this?
    I am not to in the know when it comes to all the poker sayings that I have seen used on this forum!


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    #10
    Hectorjelly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    digiman wrote:
    This is probably a stupid question but was just wondering what you meant by this?
    I am not to in the know when it comes to all the poker sayings that I have seen used on this forum!

    It doesnt matter what system/bankroll guidelines etc a losing player utilises, they will eventually go broke.


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    #11
    wayfarer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 578 ✭✭✭wayfarer


    digiman wrote:
    What I am wondering is do you lads have a system that you do when you are playing online poker, say like once you have made or lost a certain amount for a day you call it quits and bank that amount, I was trying to come up with something like this but my displine at following these things can sometimes be bad, I just see the pound signs and keep going!
    I think I can definitely be good enough to make a few quid every week doing this but I just need some sort of system that I could bank the money when I am doing well.

    This is the sort of naive gambling strategy employed by someone playing blackjack or roulette and it doesn't make one iota of difference when their game is viewed in the long term. I find it best to view playing poker as consisting of just one long single game - where one session ends and the next is completely arbitrary, and therefore so is your balance after each session. (what does it matter if you play an stt now or next week?)

    The only way you will make money from gambling is if you give up forever once you get ahead (I still see a throw of the dice 50 years down the line as being part of the one game) or if you are consistently getting the best of it, which for poker means being better than the other players at the table and nothing else.


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    #12
    eirebhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭eirebhoy


    digiman wrote:
    but then I moved up to the bigger money and started to lose
    If you move up a level you are playing against better players, that's the reason you're losing. Even if you're the richest man in the world, you should start at the bottom of the ladder and work your way up.


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    #13
    Doc Farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭Doc Farrell


    Hectorjelly wrote:
    You are taking completly the wrong approach. In order not to go broke you should limit the amount of your bankroll that is exposed at any one time. 5% is good starting point. That means if you have $100 the most you should be able to lose at any one time is $5.

    this is pretty much the best advice anybody can get. where u go from there is whole world of choice.


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    #14
    RoundTower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    fuzzbox wrote:
    A system for banking wins, or limiting losses wont help you one tiny bit, if you cant beat the game in the first place.

    I would say completely the opposite. These systems are only good if you can't beat the game in the first place.


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    #15
    Ronan
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Ronan


    Marq wrote:
    I wouldn't worry about it. Nobody's winning. It's rigged so that everyone loses except Betfair's Bots.

    :) I average about €100 - €125 a week on Betfair playing the £3 and £5 STT. I find the players on there a lot weaker than on Paddy Power.
    I'm going to give VegasBaby a go (when I get the hassle that is Neteller working so I can transfer money accross!) as word on here is some of the players on there aren't to hot.


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    #16
    Drakar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Drakar


    If anyone is giving figures of how much they earn, they need to say how many hours and if they multitable how many tables, or otherwise this can be very misleading for new people thinking that a couple of hours a night and this time next year they could be millionaires! (rodney)


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    #17
    Ronan
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Ronan


    8.91 an hour according to Pokercharts... Not trying to mislead anybody!


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    #18
    Norwich Fan Rob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    marginally above minimum wage then


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    i have a cash game system, which I have adopted for the last say 2 years consistently. It has only started to pay off however in the last 5-6 months. A combination of Sklansky, right frame of mind, and improving as a player have made it work. but since it is working now I would reccomend it as a road you should consider taking.

    I play 80% of the time 2/4 6 player no limit holdem. I sit down with a maximum of $50 which is usually way below the table norm. the other 20% is 3/6 which i sit down with $60 at.

    The idea is that the max you can loose is only a fraction of the max you can win. On average I turn $50 into $300+ 1 out of 4 times. This is over a 2 months period. I will usually leave the table if I turn it into over $500

    A couple of key things have helped me turn profitable in the last 6 months
    1. cashing out at a certain figure, immediately - whenever I leave the cash there I tend to put on my gambling shoes
    2. Only ever depositing the maximum of what it costs me to sit down at two tables
    3. Stick rigidly to the game ie. 2/4 or 3/6 holdem - dont change to different stakes and whatever you do dont dabble in high stakes omaha 'the odd time' when you have won some nice cash. dont mix heads up with cash games.
    4. Never get too confident when you win some big pots or have a good day.
    5. always be aware of tilt

    Of course these stakes may be too high for you, maybe not. There is always 50/1 and 1/2 games. BUT, for what you put in i feel the return potential of 2/4 and 3/6 is very high and better.
    i always sit down at the tables with the most money at them, this is important because while there are usually some good tight players around, a table with big pots tends to mean there a few loose players about who will pay you off if you play well.


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    #20
    Norwich Fan Rob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    totally disagree with the above post............buying in for way under the table average is a recipe for disaster........

    1, u dont maximise the return on your good hands.
    2, u have limited folding equity
    3, as most of the table has u covered, one bad beat can wipe u out, and this can lead to tilt if u just spent an hour or 2 building up your short stack to near the table average.

    usually u can spot the fish by looking at the guys who continually buy in short on cash tables.

    if a table is good, and still full of fish, why cash out, this is when u have an edge. by cashing out at a certain target, u are only limiting winnings when u are running well.

    poker is one big long game, and must be viewed in this way.


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    #21
    Ronan
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Ronan


    Norwich Fan Rob wrote:
    marginally above minimum wage then

    Anything above breaking even is good for me :D


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    totally disagree with the above post............buying in for way under the table average is a recipe for disaster........

    1, u dont maximise the return on your good hands.
    2, u have limited folding equity
    3, as most of the table has u covered, one bad beat can wipe u out, and this can lead to tilt if u just spent an hour or 2 building up your short stack to near the table average.

    usually u can spot the fish by looking at the guys who continually buy in short on cash tables.

    if a table is good, and still full of fish, why cash out, this is when u have an edge. by cashing out at a certain target, u are only limiting winnings when u are running well.

    poker is one big long game, and must be viewed in this way.

    OK, in reply to your post Rob

    firstly, I am assuming you dont practice the method i have mentioned above, so you have no experience of it, and thus i feel your strong disagreement is unjustified.

    In response to your points:
    1. I dont wait for group 1 or top ten hands, I play a game which revolves around table position tactical betting, and hand groupings. Thus I dont sit down waiting for AA or KK, and so I am not worried about maximising these hands when i hit them, often KK and QQ are the hands that break me online

    2. If you are practising the skills of point 1. folding equity doesnt really come into the equation. It doesnt bother me if i raise with a AK, and then get re-raised on the flop if I miss. I have turned $10 into 500 many times, and I dont panic and say ive so much cash in this pot i have to call anyway. I have always disagreed with the norm of putting all your money in if you know you are behind even if you have put more in there already. My philosophy is get out of the pot if the odds are against you.

    3. Yes 1 bad beat can wipe you out, but you are missing the point. Start at the table with $300 from your CC, and get a bad beat and youve lost $300 of your cash. Turn 50 into 300 and get a bad beat and you are loosing 50 of your own cash. I know which one i would prefer. Maybe it takes and hour to make that cash or even 2 hours. but which would you rather do? loose 2 hours or loose 250 bucks?


    "usually u can spot the fish by looking at the guys who continually buy in short on cash tables"

    This is one of the reasons this strategy works well. People such as yourself dont like the intrusion of someone with a short stack coming onto a table where everyone has 2-300+. thus they not only call your raises more but significantly drop the level of the cards they are willing to play because they dont feel they can loose too much heads up against a short stack. They automatically become looser players. Not everyone, but many.

    why cash out?
    well I dont totally disagree here, the reason I do it is because even if the odds are small in getting a bad beat say for example 1 in 10, even at those odds I dont want to risk my daily profit, so better to get out. Over the last couple of years Ive had so many bad beats that I am a firm beleiver in getting out at the right time. I think you need to be mentally strong to do so, not doing so in the past has cost me a lot of money. Obviously if it is a crap table there is the chance of making much more money, but its not necessarily at a table of fish you make big money.

    "Poker is one big long game......"

    I am aware of this as much as anyone. Poker is my only source of income, and being that this strategy is earning me quite a decent living, poker philosophy is something i think about daily


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    #23
    Norwich Fan Rob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    fair enough rifle, but your opinion is the complete opposite to that of most top players.

    In regard to maximising winnings, when did i ever mention premium hands?
    Anytime u hit a flop big, or make a nice draw on the turn or river, u want to have enough behind to get paid off properly.

    If u are a good player, u should be winning the majority of big pots that arise, so u will maximise profits, by having more in front of u.

    U say u dont rely on folding equity, yet u dont wait for monster hands, therefore u give yourself one way of winning a pot instead of 2, where did i mention anything about what money u had invested in a pot already, this is clearly not relevant.

    I cant believe that u can make a consistent profit from what u have wrote, but if u can, fair play to u


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    #24
    fuzzbox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭fuzzbox


    The short buy-in system can work. Ed Miller wrote about it.
    It relies on the premise that the big stack guys will give too much action to the short stack guys.

    However, I think I would rather peel my own eyeballs than play such a system.

    Its also incredibly annoying and rude, and wouldnt work very well in a casino (if at all), as the practicioners often buy in for ... say 100 in a 400 game, work it up to 250 (maybe) and then quit, and rejoin with only 100.

    I just leave the table if I find one of these guys about.


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    #25
    Drakar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Drakar


    ".... annoying and rude ...."

    Whatever about playing in a casino, I would not think using such a system in online play could be considered either annoying or rude. I would imagine most small time players who want to make money from poker play online rather than offline (though perhaps that may be an interesting question).


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    #26
    fuzzbox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭fuzzbox


    Drakar wrote:
    ".... annoying and rude ...."

    Whatever about playing in a casino, I would not think using such a system in online play could be considered either annoying or rude. I would imagine most small time players who want to make money from poker play online rather than offline (though perhaps that may be an interesting question).

    Well *I* consider it annoying and rude, so I guess its more than just possible that it can be considered such.

    If we are gambling, and I have 1k, and you sit down with 100. If, when you win 100, you leave and come back with 100 again, then I can never beat you for more than 100, but you can take 1k from me.

    Why would I want to play with somebody like this? Fact is that I wouldnt, and so if I see this behaviour, I leave.

    Many online poker sites prevent you from leaving a table, and rejoining the same table with less money than you left with for a period of time, precisely because its really annoying to play with such players.


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    #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rob, if your interested I can PM an account history for the week, i just attempted to cut and paste it here, but it came out a mess.

    I think 90% would disagree with this philosophy but then generally i do things a bit differently. I also think that poker is game developing all the time strategically wise, there is always room for new strategies despite what the top players may say.

    As far as the strategy being rude etc, to be honest when it comes to online poker, i come across more dickheads then pretty much and game/sport i play, probably because they can hide behind their keyboards. It doesnt really lead me to care about what they think either way. Aside from that its a game of mercenaries online, I dont think etiquette comes into the equation. Perhaps its a different story at a card club -


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    #28
    Culchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    fuzzbox wrote:
    If we are gambling, and I have 1k, and you sit down with 100. If, when you win 100, you leave and come back with 100 again, then I can never beat you for more than 100, but you can take 1k from me.

    Where is this game, where my 100 can take 1000 from you?

    I wanna play.


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    #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    fuzzbox wrote:
    Well *I* consider it annoying and rude, so I guess its more than just possible that it can be considered such.

    If we are gambling, and I have 1k, and you sit down with 100. If, when you win 100, you leave and come back with 100 again, then I can never beat you for more than 100, but you can take 1k from me.

    Why would I want to play with somebody like this? Fact is that I wouldnt, and so if I see this behaviour, I leave.

    Many online poker sites prevent you from leaving a table, and rejoining the same table with less money than you left with for a period of time, precisely because its really annoying to play with such players.


    What you say here is something very different to what i do, I dont leave after winning one pot, mostly leave when i get to 300+ depending. I think the max you can sit down with is 300 also. I agree sitting down winning one pot and leaving is a bit ignorant, but again manners arent something online poker was made for


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    #30
    Culchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    Deleted User wrote:
    What you say here is something very different to what i do, I dont leave after winning one pot, mostly leave when i get to 300+ depending. I think the max you can sit down with is 300 also. I agree sitting down winning one pot and leaving is a bit ignorant, but again manners arent something online poker was made for

    That's why they have min and max buy-in levels.

    As has has been stated, there are different strategies for deep stack and shortstack play, I think this allows both to be fairly employed, without pulling the Michael.


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    #31
    Norwich Fan Rob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    your short stack idea makes some degree of sense if the idea is too effectively hit and run, and hope big stacks give u action, but since u stay for a long time at a table, and ultimately build up to a big or average stack, without going broke, the bottom line remains that if u had a bigger stack, u woulda won more with your winning hands, and then after all your play, as u will always be covered, one beat will wipe u out............surely someone else can see the folly in this.


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