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General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

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    #2672
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    To say nothing of the fact that nobody will want to be seen as having caused an election in the middle of a pandemic.


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    #2673
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    But what triggers the collapse of the government? They have a majority and I dont see any rebels lining up.

    FG will want the government to collapse but don't want to be seen as the ones causing it.

    FF will want to cling on for dear life and hope for a bounce in the polls.

    Greens are an unknown. But I don't see them pulling out any time soon.

    The change of leader gives FG the excuse they need to pull the rug.


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    #2674
    New Era
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭New Era


    That new govt spin and pr department that we saw in operation in Dublin Castle for the first time.....enough said.

    I think a big problem for this beleaguered government, is the actions of the Tanaiste in the last few months.To me Leo is a national disgrace and is doing untold damage to deliberately undermine the govt, for his own selfish and vested interests. The front page headlines in the Irish examiner and in the pro FG indo this morning, is further proof if anyone needed of what type of individual the smug FG leader has always been.

    He will get his general election, that he so desperately wants in the near future. But some of the carry on from LV, throughout the start of the new administration, since it took office in late June, cannot be dismissed and must be called out for what it is. Brand Leo it seems, far outweighs the national interest.


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    #2675
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    New Era wrote: »
    That new govt spin and pr department that we saw in operation in Dublin Castle for the first time.....enough said.

    I think a big problem for this beleaguered government, is the actions of the Tanaiste in the last few months.To me Leo is a national disgrace and is doing untold damage to deliberately undermine the govt, for his own selfish and vested interests. The front page headlines in the Irish examiner and in the pro FG indo this morning, is further proof if anyone needed of what type of individual the smug FG leader has always been.

    He will get his general election, that he so desperately wants in the near future. But some of the carry on from LV, throughout the start of the new administration, since it took office in late June, cannot be dismissed and must be called out for what it is. Brand Leo it seems, far outweighs the national interest.

    Leo is correct in what he is doing, to think that Micheal Martin is Taoiseach after what Fianna Fail inflicted on this country is an absolute disgrace. And people here snigger and laugh at Trump when the joke is on us. To even contemplate letting the Green Party near Government is tantamount to treason in my opinion. People are very much awake to the disgrace of Fianna Fail, even Eamonn O'Cuiv came out against corrupt Micheal Martin today.

    A fresh election is needed and the next coalition should be a pragmatic approach with FG and SF and that is how it should have been.


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    #2676
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    New Era wrote: »
    That new govt spin and pr department that we saw in operation in Dublin Castle for the first time.....enough said.

    I think a big problem for this beleaguered government, is the actions of the Tanaiste in the last few months.To me Leo is a national disgrace and is doing untold damage to deliberately undermine the govt, for his own selfish and vested interests. The front page headlines in the Irish examiner and in the pro FG indo this morning, is further proof if anyone needed of what type of individual the smug FG leader has always been.

    He will get his general election, that he so desperately wants in the near future. But some of the carry on from LV, throughout the start of the new administration, since it took office in late June, cannot be dismissed and must be called out for what it is. Brand Leo it seems, far outweighs the national interest.

    That's a very naive way to look at politics the national interest is a cod only ever trotted out when difficult and unpopular decisions are made.

    If the roles and the polls were reversed Martin would be doing the exact same to Varadkar it's senior hurling after all as the FFers like to say.


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    #2677
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    O'Cuiv is calling for a change of leader. Not a change of government.

    Besides, it would be suicide for FF to want an election now. 10% in the polls.

    New leader = new election. FG won't accept a swap in Taoiseach and will be able to go to the polls blaming FF for the election.


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    #2678
    Colonel Claptrap
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    L1011 wrote: »
    New leader = new election. FG won't accept a swap in Taoiseach and will be able to go to the polls blaming FF for the election.

    Why does new leader = new election?

    Did the independents refuse to accept a new Taoiseach when Enda Kenny was swapped for Leo Varadkar? FF didn't mind either and they were propping up the government with a confidence and supply deal.

    What about Bertie Aherne being replaced by Brian Cowen without an election?

    Plenty of precedent.


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    #2679
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Why does new leader = new election?

    Did the independents refuse to accept a new Taoiseach when Enda Kenny was swapped for Leo Varadkar? FF didn't mind either and they were propping up the government with a confidence and supply deal.

    What about Bertie Aherne being replaced by Brian Cowen without an election?

    Plenty of precedent.

    Because, as I said, FG will see an option to cause an election and blame FF for it


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    #2680
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,356 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Fg and SF are absolutely dying for another election FG on 35% in the polls SF on 27% and the irony being it's the chaos within FF on 10% that'll probably bring it about.

    I suppose there are those in FF that think if they ditch Martin and go a different way they can claw themselves back or maybe they think it's time to get this catastrophic defeat out of the way and rebuild from there?

    I think if FF suffer another collapse they are finished.


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    #2681
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Why does new leader = new election?

    Did the independents refuse to accept a new Taoiseach when Enda Kenny was swapped for Leo Varadkar? FF didn't mind either and they were propping up the government with a confidence and supply deal.

    What about Bertie Aherne being replaced by Brian Cowen without an election?

    Plenty of precedent.


    The independents were bought off and theres a difference between confidence and supply and being part of coalition with effectively a 50/50 partnership. Also FG arent going to take the chance of a new FF leader reneging on Leos stint as Taoiseach in 2 years time and instead calling their own election when it may better suit them in the polls because they will argue it was MM who signed it.


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    #2682
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    L1011 wrote: »
    Because, as I said, FG will see an option to cause an election and blame FF for it
    They don't need to cause an election as everything is going their way at present , FF having a a bad time, good poll numbers and potentially another short term in office before an election. They'll see it through until well into next year anyway when one would assume more normal life will fully return.


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    #2683
    Truthvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    L1011 wrote: »
    New leader = new election. FG won't accept a swap in Taoiseach and will be able to go to the polls blaming FF for the election.

    New Leader??? Like who?? Micheal seems an OK kind of bloke by Fianna Fail standards. At least back to Jack Lynch levels of integrity after years of Haughey/ Aherne wide boy stuff (Cown can be seen as transition)

    Big problem for FF is who in gods name could replace him at the moment. Barry Cowen still needs to sober up and maybe get a full driving licence but even then he has a bit of the Haughey/ Aherne/Ray Burke smell off him IMO. The rest of them couldn't be trusted to pop down to Centra for a Kit Kat

    So that leaves mad Eamonn O'Cuiv speaking Irish at the crossroads in the drizzle fantasising about a load of boll0cks no-one cares about.

    I would be clinging on to Michael if I were them - and praying that another FF gouger is caught on the way into Dublin City Council with a brown envelope or with no bank account and a new car.


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    #2684
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    FG won't cause an election without something of substance. They need to be able to say, "This coalition is no longer tenable due to the behaviour of our coalition partner(s)". They can't pull the plug over a plan they negotiated and agreed with, and if they do it over something frivilous, they'll be accused of playing games in the middle of a pandemic.

    I'd say Leo is waiting for the next big scandal now. Let this 5-level plan bed in a bit and get firmed up, then pounce on Martin's refusal to condemn the next disgraced FF member.


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    #2685
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    seamus wrote: »
    FG won't cause an election without something of substance. They need to be able to say, "This coalition is no longer tenable due to the behaviour of our coalition partner(s)". They can't pull the plug over a plan they negotiated and agreed with, and if they do it over something frivilous, they'll be accused of playing games in the middle of a pandemic.

    I'd say Leo is waiting for the next big scandal now. Let this 5-level plan bed in a bit and get firmed up, then pounce on Martin's refusal to condemn the next disgraced FF member.


    The problem then is will they get tarred with sending us to the polls during a pandemic and it being irresponsible?


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    #2686
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    awec wrote: »
    I think if FF suffer another collapse they are finished.

    Here's hoping;)


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    #2687
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Truthvader wrote: »


    New Leader??? Like who??

    Jim O'Callaghan fancies himself for the job, as does O'Cuiv. It'd be a contested race; with them convinced they'll get Taoiseach as the prize - even though they'll get an election as their 'reward' and could easily lose their seat if its O'Callaghan.

    Party leader not being returned (when a party still returns any TDs at all) is not a normal occurence, but we may see it happen.


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    #2688
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Is there any indication that an actual leadership challenge will materialise outside of O'Cuiv running his mouth?


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    #2689
    Truthvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    L1011 wrote: »
    Jim O'Callaghan fancies himself for the job, as does O'Cuiv. It'd be a contested race; with them convinced they'll get Taoiseach as the prize - even though they'll get an election as their 'reward' and could easily lose their seat if its O'Callaghan.

    Party leader not being returned (when a party still returns any TDs at all) is not a normal occurence, but we may see it happen.

    Poor Jim who had a sulky little hissy fit when he didn't get the "big job" he wanted. Exposed immediately as old school "whats in it for me" Fianna Fail. No thanks


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    #2690
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Truthvader wrote: »
    Poor Jim who had a sulky little hissy fit when he didn't get the "big job" he wanted. Exposed immediately as old school "whats in it for me" Fianna Fail. No thanks

    Plenty of them around, as we saw with the strop-fests when the cabinet was announced.


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    #2691
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Truthvader wrote: »
    Poor Jim who had a sulky little hissy fit when he didn't get the "big job" he wanted. Exposed immediately as old school "whats in it for me" Fianna Fail. No thanks


    O Cuiv isnt much better, entitled little snot nosed runt. Just cus hes Devs grandson he thinks he is owed no end of privileges. Look at the shenanigans he got up to 2 years ago in the north which started that whole SDLP agreement out on a really bad footing.


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    #2692
    Truthvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    VinLieger wrote: »
    O Cuiv isnt much better, entitled little snot nosed runt. Just cus hes Devs grandson he thinks he is owed no end of privileges. Look at the shenanigans he got up to 2 years ago in the north which started that whole SDLP agreement out on a really bad footing.

    Agreed but O'Cuivs real problem is that he is stuck in a time warp. The people who would vote for him can't because they're dead


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    #2693
    sky6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭sky6


    They should all resign. This Mother and Child Bill is nothing short of a national disgrace.

    You reap what you sow and this will come back to haunt them.


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    #2694
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,651 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    sky6 wrote: »
    They should all resign. This Mother and Child Bill is nothing short of a national disgrace.

    You reap what you sow and this will come back to haunt them.


    In what way is it a disgrace?


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    #2695
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Reports from the FF Parliamentary Party meeting would suggest that Barry Cowen is particularly pissed at Varadkar not being made walk the plank and Ray McSharry is ready to leave the party.

    Election in December anyone? :pac:


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    #2696
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Can't see it happening. Fianna Fail of all people aren't going to force an election since the polls have pointed to Fine Gael and Sinn Fein being the big winners. McSharry is a perennial dissident as long as Martin is boss and Cowen is just sore because he had to resign and Varadkar didn't.


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    #2697
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The problem is who is left on Martin's side? McGrath aside.

    The Country & Western set is against him for, well, everything; the Dublin Suburbia set are against him for not getting the jobs they wanted.


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    #2698
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    L1011 wrote: »
    Reports from the FF Parliamentary Party meeting would suggest that Barry Cowen is particularly pissed at Varadkar not being made walk the plank and Ray McSharry is ready to leave the party.

    Election in December anyone? :pac:

    Ray? ;)

    If his son had half the ability that Ray did then he’d actually be dangerous


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    #2699
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Ray? ;)

    If his son had half the ability that Ray did then he’d actually be dangerous

    Oops.

    Pat Rabbitte (I think) once rather pointedly discussed the idea of talent skipping a generation, ending the statement with "Senator McSharry" (as he was at the time)


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    #2700
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Marc MacSharry is as thick as pig sh1t but he is spot on about Martin and how he is perceived he is seen as a lame duck and frankly as a joke.


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    #2701
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Marc MacSharry is as thick as pig sh1t but he is spot on about Martin and how he is perceived he is seen as a lame duck and frankly as a joke.

    He will be in a tight spot on tuesday!
    Will he vote confidence in Varadkar?
    Be interesting to see after his outburst this week how he wriggles if he votes with Leo.


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