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NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2018-19 Thread

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The more interesting hypothetical is how might the Lakers spend 32m in cap space on non max guys?

    Davis
    LeBron
    Kuzma

    Who would you add?

    Rubio, Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Redick might be a good mix? Maybe you could get them all with longer deals?

    Rubio is my fav player so I'd pick him anyway. He's an analytics darling, great passer, improved shooter, good defender.
    His problem is he's a pretty poor finisher around the rim which I wonder will that be a big role for someone playing off the ball when LBJ has it.
    For his defense at the right price he's worth it. Redick could come down to Butler/Harris, questions around does he take less for a championship.

    Seth curry is a name being floated around too. To be honest, I suspect buy outs to be key for Lakers closer to the deadline. Could IT be an option as 6th man, recent ESPN article saying he's ready too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,014 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    On a broader note, the musical chairs is becoming a bit silly now.......

    You said this yourself last off-season:
    Butterski wrote:
    Dunc'd On said at one stage last week that over 60% of deals done this year were 1 year deals and more importantly that almost 50% of the League were FAs next year. I find that number to be very much on high side, but if it's true (and given the source you'd have to suspect he does his homework), summer of 2019 will be crazy.....

    This summer has been in the works for a while!


  • Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You said this yourself last off-season:



    This summer has been in the works for a while!

    Yeah, I said that. That’s not an endorsement of it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,014 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Yeah, I said that. That’s not an endorsement of it!

    Okay, what’s your issue with it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Okay, what’s your issue with it?

    I have several issues with it tbh.

    One is that it brings instability to the smaller franchises and their fanbases. How do you root for a team if they change 40%+ of the roster every year? It used to be one or two players would move etc., now you have teams stripping down to 4, 3, 2 players or 1 player possibly in LA this summer in preparation for FA. This will create a league of guns for hire and mercenaries. Fair enough if that's what you want, it's not what I want.

    I'm a basketball fan first and a Celtics fan second. I don't see this as being a good thing - nothing to do with Boston in that.

    There'll be no more legacy teams, no more rivalries of substance. Sure you'll have LA v Boston and other rivalries but there'll be no continuity in that and you'll have so much change each year it'll dilute the end product for me.

    What about loyalty? Call me old and old-fashioned if you want (I'm not!) but I think player empowerment has gone too far and it's a contributor to the above. Sure, move when your contract is up - I have no issue with that in principle - but I have an issue with the AD type stuff that went on this year forcing a trade/trying to force a trade 18months out.

    I know the next few days will be crazy and lots of "he got how much?" conversations, but this this is all a sideshow for TV and talking heads - it's not basketball. I'd rather watch Euroleague sometimes TBH.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    I have several issues with it tbh.

    One is that it brings instability to the smaller franchises and their fanbases. How do you root for a team if they change 40%+ of the roster every year? It used to be one or two players would move etc., now you have teams stripping down to 4, 3, 2 players or 1 player possibly in LA this summer in preparation for FA. This will create a league of guns for hire and mercenaries. Fair enough if that's what you want, it's not what I want.

    I'm a basketball fan first and a Celtics fan second. I don't see this as being a good thing - nothing to do with Boston in that.

    There'll be no more legacy teams, no more rivalries of substance. Sure you'll have LA v Boston and other rivalries but there'll be no continuity in that and you'll have so much change each year it'll dilute the end product for me.

    What about loyalty? Call me old and old-fashioned if you want (I'm not!) but I think player empowerment has gone too far and it's a contributor to the above. Sure, move when your contract is up - I have no issue with that in principle - but I have an issue with the AD type stuff that went on this year forcing a trade/trying to force a trade 18months out.

    I know the next few days will be crazy and lots of "he got how much?" conversations, but this this is all a sideshow for TV and talking heads - it's not basketball. I'd rather watch Euroleague sometimes TBH.

    If you're a basketball fan, then I would question why someone thinks that the slightly more regular re-creation of rosters which a team feels is more likely to succeed is such a bad thing over languishing in basketball purgatory. This perpetual situation is imo what causes long term destabilisation not efforts to recreate.

    I dont think there is any evidence whatsoever that retooling more frequently destabilizes franchises, nor is there evidence of what I suggested but intuitively efforts continuing with a consistent roster that's going nowhere is far more likely to cause disillusionment.

    I think that is very very old fashioned and I shared an article previously which debunks this logic in large part. Athletes are a special case but they should be afforded more empowerment given they generate the profit. For most other profit making machines -such as normal people- have greater agency over their decisions and although it's not precisely the same, players deserve more than being the pawns on franchises chessboard for those who make more than anyone with little risk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,014 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I have several issues with it tbh.

    One is that it brings instability to the smaller franchises and their fanbases. How do you root for a team if they change 40%+ of the roster every year? It used to be one or two players would move etc., now you have teams stripping down to 4, 3, 2 players or 1 player possibly in LA this summer in preparation for FA. This will create a league of guns for hire and mercenaries. Fair enough if that's what you want, it's not what I want.

    I'm a basketball fan first and a Celtics fan second. I don't see this as being a good thing - nothing to do with Boston in that.

    There'll be no more legacy teams, no more rivalries of substance. Sure you'll have LA v Boston and other rivalries but there'll be no continuity in that and you'll have so much change each year it'll dilute the end product for me.

    What about loyalty? Call me old and old-fashioned if you want (I'm not!) but I think player empowerment has gone too far and it's a contributor to the above. Sure, move when your contract is up - I have no issue with that in principle - but I have an issue with the AD type stuff that went on this year forcing a trade/trying to force a trade 18months out.

    I know the next few days will be crazy and lots of "he got how much?" conversations, but this this is all a sideshow for TV and talking heads - it's not basketball. I'd rather watch Euroleague sometimes TBH.

    Well I appreciate you explaining your reasons. I disagree with a lot of it.

    SMALLER MARKETS
    Does it really make much of a difference whether it's different faces losing regularly or the same bunch of guys sucking up your cap and missing out on the playoffs? Either way, the path to relevancy remains the same - tank well, draft well and build it out that you could sell a short term FA deal on competing if they go there

    LEGACY / RIVALRIES
    We had four years in a row of GS vs LeBron and it seemed everyone was sick of that when it was over. But nonetheless, we get narratives and storylines the only difference is that the time periods are shorter. I'm okay with that tbh. When it comes to basketball, it was always the players that made it. The jersey or franchise is just a context for the stars to do their thing. The stars still face off multiple times over the years in the modern NBA, they just move different places to do it.

    PLAYER POWER
    And ultimately this is the most important part. The owners don't matter. The GMs are important but they'd trade you / waive you / **** with your money when you're no longer any use to them. We watch because of the stars and why should they be loyal to teams that see them as a commodity or fans that will curse them out when they struggle? They have seized control of their careers and achieved a CBA far more advantageous than their counterparts in the NFL. And fair play to them.


    Isaiah Thomas is the cornerstone example that makes me say **** the franchises and any concept of loyalty. The Celtics ruthlessly traded him away rather than be left holding the bag at the end of his contract beloved of the fanbase. I don't blame the players for maximising their money and their competitive chances in that type of context.

    And whatever about the money, the drama and intrigue of the stars teaming up and watching how the smarter GMs have adjusted to the new reality makes for great entertainment. It gives us plenty to chew on, analyse and enjoy. The game has changed substantially over the last two decades. This is definitely one of the ways it is for the better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    If you're a basketball fan, then I would question why someone thinks that the slightly more regular re-creation of rosters which a team feels is more likely to succeed is such a bad thing over languishing in basketball purgatory. This perpetual situation is imo what causes long term destabilisation not efforts to recreate.

    I dont think there is any evidence whatsoever that retooling more frequently destabilizes franchises, nor is there evidence of what I suggested but intuitively efforts continuing with a consistent roster that's going nowhere is far more likely to cause disillusionment.

    I think that is very very old fashioned and I shared an article previously which debunks this logic in large part. Athletes are a special case but they should be afforded more empowerment given they generate the profit. For most other profit making machines -such as normal people- have greater agency over their decisions and although it's not precisely the same, players deserve more than being the pawns on franchises chessboard for those who make more than anyone with little risk.

    As I’ve said repeatedly, I’ve no issue with guys moving AFTER their contract is up, but this engineering moves mid-contract leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I didn’t get to read the Kevin Arnovitz piece you linked but I’ve heard Arnovitz on numerous pods recently (Zach Lowe bring one) and over the years and while he is in favour of a more open market (and indeed scrapping the draft), he - like me - believes players should honour the contracts they sign and not change their mind (I’m being kind there) 18months or more before that and engineering a move before that contract is up. This has been his viewpoint for sometime so unless there’s a big change in his thinking recently I can’t see how that view differs enormously from mine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    As I’ve said repeatedly, I’ve no issue with guys moving AFTER their contract is up, but this engineering moves mid-contract leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I didn’t get to read the Kevin Arnovitz piece you linked but I’ve heard Arnovitz on numerous pods recently (Zach Lowe bring one) and over the years and while he is in favour of a more open market (and indeed scrapping the draft), he - like me - believes players should honour the contracts they sign and not change their mind (I’m being kind there) 18months or more before that and engineering a move before that contract is up. This has been his viewpoint for sometime so unless there’s a big change in his thinking recently I can’t see how that view differs enormously from mine.

    I think Arnotiz logic is correct insofar as it pertains to young players.
    However, the issue arises where he decides that if a player chooses their team, that means they're going to be happy therefore they cannot/will not complain about moving team.
    I believe if he kept along that path as Silver did at Sloan conference by discussing the issues of mental health that arise for players forced to stay in unhappy situation then he'd have a good theory.

    Players choosing their situation would likely lead to less efforts to move but that isn't confined to rookies. Established players in the midst of 5 year deals should be afforded the ability to engineer their own future to a degree.
    We all know that a lot can change in the workplace over an ephermal period let alone 5 years.

    He has the bones of a good theory but it should also have caveats to apply wholesale across the NBA to increase the agency of all players while reducing the passive aggressive nature of the current means because players are right to want more agency but teams are right that this isn't the best way to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,014 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Darren Collison has retired at the age of 31 to focus on helping those less fortunate through his Jehovah Witness.

    Woj expected him to earn 10-12m his summer, pretty unprecedented move.
    Although I'd be as close to atheist as one can be, you have to acknowledge the commitment of someone and their beliefs to do that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,688 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    Darren Collison has retired at the age of 31 to focus on helping those less fortunate through his Jehovah Witness.

    Woj expected him to earn 10-12m his summer, pretty unprecedented move.
    Although I'd be as close to atheist as one can be, you have to acknowledge the commitment of someone and their beliefs to do that.

    Or he could've earned an extra 10 million & invested that in charity instead.
    Religion is a poison.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    Or he could've earned an extra 10 million & invested that in charity instead.
    Religion is a poison.

    I wouldn't be a proponent of religious dogma and I'd have shared your view completely for a long time but if religion is the catalyst for one person to devote their life to the betterment of others then clearly it can be a good thing.

    Generally I take the utilitarian viewpoint that 10m>anything Collison could do at an individual level but it's not completely altruistic either.
    He's making this decision because it will make him happier too.

    I find it hard not to view the decision as commendable even if I dont like much of any of the doctrine that buttresses religious worship.
    Whoever is his sky fairy of choice is irrelevant in many respects but a decision of devoting yourself to something bigger than your own personal goals is not always a bad thing, it just happens to be an invisible person in the sky for him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Mirotic returning to play with Barca in the Euroleague. I thought if the Lakers went down the multiple pieces route with their cap space he might end up there.

    I could be wrong but I remember something to the effect of him and AD being the highest +/- of any big man combo for NO when Boogie was also there.

    Perfect stretch 4 to join them in many ways.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭Blinky Plebum


    Hitch2222 wrote: »
    Mirotic returning to play with Barca in the Euroleague. I thought if the Lakers went down the multiple pieces route with their cap space he might end up there.

    I could be wrong but I remember something to the effect of him and AD being the highest +/- of any big man combo for NO when Boogie was also there.

    Perfect stretch 4 to join them in many ways.


    Barca have obviuosly finally decided to give up on Tiki Taka and are going for good old fashioned route one football next season, he'll be a nightmare to handle for central defenders next year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,688 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Petition to move all posts from today onwards to a new 2019-20 thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,391 ✭✭✭D2D


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    Petition to move all posts from today onwards to a new 2019-20 thread.

    Close enough:pac:

    The Offseason thread is up here:)


This discussion has been closed.
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