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The Hellfire Make-over

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  • 04-04-2017 12:07am
    #1
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭


    I'm all for making the hills and mountains as person and user friendly as possible but this one confounds me. While the Hellfire has it's history and some great views to hand it certainly is no Glendalough. The forestry isn't pleasing to the eye and it's walking routes are limited, and that's before we consider the poor accessibility or indeed the eyesore that it creates.

    Quite how the powers that be feel that it warrants this level of investment isn't clear to me, unless I'm missing something here.

    http://www.sdcc.ie/services/parks-and-recreation/dublin-mountains-project


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    #2
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    I'm conflicted on this, I like to keep everything in it's natural state, but Monteplier Hill is hardly in a natural state as it is anyway. I suppose it's way of utilising the area better for recreation and those that wouldn't be your typical hill walker. I don't get the huge outcry from some quarters though.


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    #3
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Thumbs up from me, we really don't make the most of the mountains on Dublin's doorsteps, and they should be much more accessible as they are a super resource. The documents on the link describe why Hellfire was chosen.

    Hopefully by drawing people into the mountains it will lead to demand for a network of proper signposted paths.

    There will always be moaners, it's hard to get anything done in this country.


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    #4
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,691 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    The deal here, as I see it, is that SDCC have a budget for tourism promotion and development, but unlike their three sister councils in the Dublin region, have a pretty poor offering when it come to attracting tourists. So they are effectively shoehorning the need to create a viable tourism product into the existing landscape. The problem is they are doing it in probably the most banal manner possible.

    I also, frankly, just don't trust SDCC. They'll come up with an eye-catching scheme, make all the right noises and steam roll ahead with the project. But 5-10 years down the line we'll see neglect, damage from anti-social behaviour, complete lack of investment and a falling out with other government agencies and red tape will likely stymie any continued input. They might fix a few issues in the short term, but will likely create others before walking away from it all to focus their gaze on some other feel-good initiative. Meanwhile, the public who continue to use these trails and locations for their recreational use will be left to make the best of a bad situation and likely ignored when they appeal for a bit of common sense.

    I'll go along to the public open days over today and tomorrow to get a better look, but sometimes it would be best to fix the existing problems before you go inventing new ones...


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    #5
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,691 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    The protest group has been overrun by People Before Profit and there are some wild and inaccurate statements being flung around at public meetings.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/106068

    Also being heavily supported by the Socialist Worker organisation http://www.socialistworkeronline.net/save-south-dublin-forests/

    Some interesting graphics on the slick looking opposition web site http://www.savethehellfire.com/sdcc-proposal (who pays for these things?)

    But few rational and objective arguments being put forward.


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    #6
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,762 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    €19 million on the Hellfire Club? It wouldn't cost an awful lot more to buy Luggala and turn it into another Glendalough. It would be a lot less far away for most of the 2 million people in the greater Dublin area compared to Glendalough.


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    #7
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,691 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    I went along to the consultation last night and had a look over the images. Kind of light on information for the uninformed, but the technical drawings are there none the less.

    C8zAdb8V0AAlNPh.jpg:large

    I spoke with a guy who turned out to be a road engineer, so his area of expertise was quite limited with regards to the building and security/access to the site.

    A few things that stood out
    • the increase in capacity in car parking from 40 to 300
    • The proposed pedestrian bridge linking the car parking area to Masseys will be wheelchair accessible
    • There will be no parking provided for Masseys itself
    • There will be significant road upgrading in the area
    • There are no plans for satellite bus parks and shuttle buses
    • Access to the carpark is proposed to be during daylight hours
    • It wasn't possible to contain the foul water drainage locally so a new 250mm pipe will be laid under the road to connect to the existing system. This will allow up to 100 additional houses to link into this new branch. 250mm is the smallest diameter pipe that is practical to be laid under a road.

    The building is quite a contentious issue I understand and it certainly did seem to be a large addition to the mountainside. Personally it seemed unnecessarily large with public spaces in addition to the coffee shop, kitchen and toilets. It seems to be kind of half way up the trail between the carpark and the top. So at least it encourages people to get out and walk...

    Planning will happen later in the year and they expect it will be appealed and end up with ABP. But if it goes roughly to plan, it should be finished by summer 2019.

    Well worth popping along to the football stadium to take a look at the plans and talk to the county council employees. Open until 8pm this evening.


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    #8
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    [*]It wasn't possible to contain the foul water drainage locally so a new 250mm pipe will be laid under the road to connect to the existing system. This will allow up to 100 additional houses to link into this new branch. 250mm is the smallest diameter pipe that is practical to be laid under a road.
    [/LIST]

    The cynic in me sees this and goes hmmmm.


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    #9
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    As a local I'm glad to see there are plans to address a lot of issues up there. The carpark is totally inadequate for the demand on a fine day. The car park is designed to hold 45 cars and on a recent fine Sunday 70 cars were parked along the narrow road outside the carpark which does make it difficult for cars to pass and dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. From what I can see the protesters consist of the normal tree huggers and socialist malcontents that these sort of projects normally attract.


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    #10
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Oh I did go to the open day as well and was impressed by what was presented. I was pleasantly surprised that they were also addressing pedestrian footpaths on the roads leading up to the HFC as well. Some of the roads especially Gunny Hill road is a danger because it's so narrow with no path.


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    #11
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Personally it seemed unnecessarily large with public spaces in addition to the coffee shop, kitchen and toilets.
    We seem to be caught up in always having to have an "educational" element when we build these sort of buildings, as if otherwise they can't be justified or people wont visit them. There is nothing wrong with simply building something like a European style mountain hut, with a cafe only, in an attractive accessible location with great views and the opportunity for people to go for a walk.


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    #12
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,691 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    hmmm wrote: »
    We seem to be caught up in always having to have an "educational" element when we build these sort of buildings, as if otherwise they can't be justified or people wont visit them. There is nothing wrong with simply building something like a European style mountain hut, with a cafe only, in an attractive accessible location with great views and the opportunity for people to go for a walk.

    Couldn't agree more. Nothing needs to be "interpreted" here or "translated" for the common woman/man. It's mainly locals taking a leisurely stroll. A modest coffee dock with clean toilets and mixed seating might be nice and a welcome break for the Dublin Mountain Way. But my concern is that this is too ambitious for the long term support it will receive from SDCC.


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    #13
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    hmmm wrote: »
    We seem to be caught up in always having to have an "educational" element when we build these sort of buildings, as if otherwise they can't be justified or people wont visit them. There is nothing wrong with simply building something like a European style mountain hut, with a cafe only, in an attractive accessible location with great views and the opportunity for people to go for a walk.
    Would agree with this. Also there is a serious issue with parking around the mountains. If there are free spaces, its probably because the cars are being broken into there.

    But we need to treat these kind of places as an asset, and not as a drain on taxpayers money. A site like that should be capable of bringing in an income from the concession holders/shops/cafes which should in the long term pay for maintenance of free supervised parking and well maintained trails. So whatever it costs initially could be seen as an investment loan.

    Thereby leaving actual capital to be spent on purchasing land at the Luggala site. Which in turn could be turned into a revenue generating tourist asset.

    Making more money available to enrich the environmentally depleted area around Sally Gap/ Featherbeds and turn it into a rich broadleaf forest, to be a major public amenity close to the capital city.

    But instead I suppose they'll just sink a load of money into this one interpretive centre type project and then say "that's all we can afford. All this environmental stuff is way too expensive..."

    I had to laugh at this quote..
    The woods are one of the largest broad-leaf forests in Europe. David McGunn of HCAG on local radio said of the area: ?It is, in the proper, real sense of the word, a wilderness?
    I presume he means the narrow strip of broadleaf woodland along the river path from Masseys going up towards Cruagh Woods. Its nice alright, but its only a teeny tiny corridor.

    However, it wouldn't be all that difficult to turn a wild dream like that into reality.


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    #14
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Ffs wilderness, Massey's used to be the site of a great house! It isn't a wilderness it's a manacured estate that has gone back to nature. At least the FUD coming from these clowns is consistent.


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    #15
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Well, it looks as if it's a runner now.

    http://www.echo.ie/show/article/19-million-hellfire-club-tourism-project-gets-go-ahead


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    #16
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Well, it looks as if it's a runner now.

    http://www.echo.ie/show/article/19-million-hellfire-club-tourism-project-gets-go-ahead
    Personally I'm happy with the decision, but I understand the objections - it's going to draw more people into the mountains along narrow roads, and it will change the nature of the place.

    But it is a fantastic resource, it's near a major city and something had to be done - having the Guards hand out tickets for people parking on the road is a short-term solution which does nothing to reduce demand. I'd like to see something a bit more imaginative than just a large car park however - how about some safe cycling & walking trails to allow people walk up the mountain without having to park at the Hellfire?


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    #17
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Who are the crowd that are having no problems 'convincing' the government that we need sky bridges everywhere?
    I have no issues with this makeover as a whole. But would love to know where the new found passion for sky bridges is coming from for any patch of trees.
    Glendalough next?


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    #18
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,762 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    "The submissions included concerns about the red squirrel population"

    Really? I thought red squirrels were already long extinct east of the Shannon?


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    #19
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,418 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    unkel wrote: »
    "The submissions included concerns about the red squirrel population"

    Really? I thought red squirrels were already long extinct east of the Shannon?
    Wrong. There are pockets of red squirrels on the East Coast. I've seen them around Lough Dan and there are a few up on Killiney Hill for example. There's even a few here in Bray I believe.


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    #20
    Enduro
    Registered Users Posts: 3,617 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Alun wrote: »
    Wrong. There are pockets of red squirrels on the East Coast. I've seen them around Lough Dan and there are a few up on Killiney Hill for example. There's even a few here in Bray I believe.

    I have seen them in lots of places (mostly forests) in the Dublin mountains. Overall I reckon I see slightly more reds than greys. Now Lizzards are really hard to spot!!


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    #21
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Alun wrote: »
    Wrong. There are pockets of red squirrels on the East Coast. I've seen them around Lough Dan and there are a few up on Killiney Hill for example. There's even a few here in Bray I believe.

    Making a comeback by all accounts, so the Redser is.


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    #22
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Enduro wrote: »
    I have seen them in lots of places (mostly forests) in the Dublin mountains. Overall I reckon I see slightly more reds than greys. Now Lizzards are really hard to spot!!

    I saw a lizard close to the top of Kippure once.


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    #23
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


      Losty Dublin wrote: »
      I saw a lizard close to the top of Kippure once.

      Was it a newt? Saw one a few weeks back near Gravale and was sure it was a lizard until I googled it.


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      #24
      Alun
      Registered Users Posts: 21,418 ✭✭✭✭Alun


      mloc123 wrote: »
      Was it a newt? Saw one a few weeks back near Gravale and was sure it was a lizard until I googled it.
      It was probably a common lizard. I regularly see them up in the Wicklow Mountains, even in wet boggy areas. Saw one up near War Hill only last week,


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      #25
      amen
      Registered Users Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


      Alun wrote: »
      Wrong. There are pockets of red squirrels on the East Coast. I've seen them around Lough Dan and there are a few up on Killiney Hill for example. There's even a few here in Bray I believe.

      There are at least three red squirrel populations in Bray.


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      #26
      Alun
      Registered Users Posts: 21,418 ✭✭✭✭Alun


      amen wrote: »
      There are at least three red squirrel populations in Bray.
      The ones I had heard of was on King Edward Rd. or Church Rd. I think.


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      #27
      KevRossi
      Registered Users Posts: 4,378 ✭✭✭KevRossi


      Squirrels in Bohernabreena Reservoir and around Massey's and the Hellfire. They have been well documented, along with Merlins and Red Grouse amongst others.

      Coillte have a plan to turn the coniferous forests in the Dublin Mountains back to deciduous woodland for recreational use. It involves several thousand acres. They have some plans, but are very vague on detail when I spoke to them. They have a press officer and PR people, but no botanist or person with wildlife experience.

      My own experience with Coillte is that they are a shower of lying B'Stards who I wouldn't trust with a 50c piece. They've actively destroyed large parts of the country and have plans to do a lot more. So I guess we'll see how things pan out.


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