Ordering Certificates: Long Form or Photocopy?

P. Breathnach · 08-04-2011 6:44pm #1

I am about to order a couple of marriage certificates from the 1870s. The GRO offers a choice of Full (Long Form) or a photocopy of the entry in the register.

To my mind, the advantage of the long form might be that the clerical staff in the GRO are more skilled than I am in deciphering register entries.

On the other hand, the photocopy might give me the fun of seeing ancestral handwriting.

I don't regard the price difference (€4 a throw) as significant. It's not as if I am ordering a lot of certificates in order to seek a match.

Opinions/advice solicited.

psycho-hope · 08-04-2011 11:53pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am about to order a couple of marriage certificates from the 1870s. The GRO offers a choice of Full (Long Form) or a photocopy of the entry in the register.

To my mind, the advantage of the long form might be that the clerical staff in the GRO are more skilled than I am in deciphering register entries.

On the other hand, the photocopy might give me the fun of seeing ancestral handwriting.

I don't regard the price difference (€4 a throw) as significant. It's not as if I am ordering a lot of certificates in order to seek a match.

Opinions/advice solicited.

tbh i found the photocopy enough gave me the date, place and fathers names of the people i was looking for, so it really depends what details you are looking for, I'm not sure what the extra details on the long version are

P. Breathnach · 09-04-2011 1:13am

psycho-hope wrote: »

tbh i found the photocopy enough gave me the date, place and fathers names of the people i was looking for, so it really depends what details you are looking for, I'm not sure what the extra details on the long version are

Thanks.

No extra details in the Long Form. When you think about it, there can't be, because all the GRO staff have is the information in the actual register.

My concern is about legibility - handwriting style and quality from those days, and how well things photocopy. Did you find everything you got was fairly legible?

shanew · 09-04-2011 8:34am

definitely the photocopy/scan - that way if there is any difficult-to-read sections you can investigate... e.g. post samples of the writing from the cert online so that people can offer suggestions etc..

Shane

pinkypinky · 09-04-2011 2:12pm

Sorry to be a spoilsport but neither will show your ancestors' writing. It's a copy of the central register you get. They signed their copy of it and (afaik) the local register but a copy of this was sent to the central, rather than the original.

Definitely spend less money - you can always scan to blow up difficult words and of course, show us if you're stuck!!

P. Breathnach · 09-04-2011 2:37pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Sorry to be a spoilsport but neither will show your ancestors' writing. It's a copy of the central register you get. They signed their copy of it and (afaik) the local register but a copy of this was sent to the central, rather than the original.

Oh, well. Yes, it was presumptuous to suppose that I would get a copy from the local register.

Was it much the same arrangement in the 1870s as it is today: a local register maintained in the church (RC in the case of my ancestors) and the data sent to the local registrar?

Definitely spend less money - you can always scan to blow up difficult words and of course, show us if you're stuck!!

That's a game that I think people here relish.

Okay, decision made: photocopies.

shanew · 09-04-2011 3:07pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

.....
Was it much the same arrangement in the 1870s as it is today: a local register maintained in the church (RC in the case of my ancestors) and the data sent to the local registrar?
....

Other than marriages, civil records were separate to church records and were recorded by the local registrar. The original record was kept by the registrar, but copies were made at intervals, I think quarterly, and sent to Dublin. These records from all over Ireland were transcribed into the National Registers and the overall index was created using this amalgamated set of records. This is the index in the volumes in the GRO or on the familysearch index.

Marriage records were a little different in that two records were created at the same time - one kept by the church and the other for civil records. The details recorded in these can be different - e.g. an RC record will not usually mention occupations, but a civil record will. Sometimes you can be lucky and find extra detail on a parish marriage record, such as mother names - but this is not common. (e.g. St. Marys, Pro-cathedral, Dublin for some of the 1870s)

Shane

P. Breathnach · 09-04-2011 4:13pm

shanew wrote: »

Other than marriages, civil records were separate to church records and were recorded by the local registrar. The original record was kept by the registrar, but copies were made at intervals, I think quarterly, and sent to Dublin. These records from all over Ireland were transcribed into the National Registers and the overall index was created using this amalgamated set of records. This is the index in the volumes in the GRO or on the familysearch index.

Marriage records were a little different in that two records were created at the same time - one kept by the church and the other for civil records. The details recorded in these can be different - e.g. an RC record will not usually mention occupations, but a civil record will. Sometimes you can be lucky and find extra detail on a parish marriage record, such as mother names - but this is not common. (e.g. St. Marys, Pro-cathedral, Dublin for some of the 1870s)

Thanks Shane.

I was operating in one-track mode, as I am currently planning to check on two marriages. In relation to one of them, I am not sure where it happened, other than the registration district (Rathdown) which was outside my great-grandfather's home area, which is Arklow (Rathdrum). I am hoping to get a better fix on my great-grandmother's origins, and the place of marriage looks as if it might be a useful key. It might lead me to a church record.

As a matter of interest, do the local official registers still exist?

shanew · 09-04-2011 4:25pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

.....
I am not sure where it happened, other than the registration district (Rathdown) which was outside my great-grandfather's home area, which is Arklow (Rathdrum). I am hoping to get a better fix on my great-grandmother's origins, and the place of marriage..

As a matter of interest, do the local official registers still exist?

the Registration Districts of Rathdown and Rathdrum are adjacent - the southern border of Rathdown is at around Delgany and it extents north to about Clonskeagh in Dublin.

no idea on the local civil registers, sorry... I live in Dublin, so use the GRO

Shane

psycho-hope · 09-04-2011 4:28pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thanks Shane.

I was operating in one-track mode, as I am currently planning to check on two marriages. In relation to one of them, I am not sure where it happened, other than the registration district (Rathdown) which was outside my great-grandfather's home area, which is Arklow (Rathdrum). I am hoping to get a better fix on my great-grandmother's origins, and the place of marriage looks as if it might be a useful key. It might lead me to a church record.

As a matter of interest, do the local official registers still exist?

just to let you know, i found my great great grandparents bounced back and forth between rathdrum and rathdown in the space of 10 years so dont be surprised if it turns up under the one you least expect

P. Breathnach · 09-04-2011 5:13pm

I know roughly the areas covered by Rathdrum and Rathdown, but I wasn't able to find an online resource that clearly delineates the boundary. I have a probable location in Arklow for my great-grandfather before he married (Griffiths, 1865), and a confident one (birth record of his daughter in 1878 at the same address) after the marriage. So I don't expect that he moved about a great deal.

It does appear that he married a woman from a place further away than he would visit casually, so it's difficult to guess how he might have met her. If I learn their occupations, I might be able to speculate on that.

shanew · 09-04-2011 5:32pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I know roughly the areas covered by Rathdrum and Rathdown, but I wasn't able to find an online resource that clearly delineates the boundary.
......
It does appear that he married a woman from a place further away than he would visit casually, so it's difficult to guess how he might have met her. If I learn their occupations, I might be able to speculate on that.
.....

to check which towns and townland are in each district use the townland database at : www.seanruad.com Enter the name of the district you wish to search for in the Poor Law Union field (select no other fields) and search...

Marriages usually took place in the bride's parish - this could be the parish of her family home, or just where she was living at the time.

It's common to find the bride's occupation not filled in - sometimes even if they are known to have had one at the time

Shane

P. Breathnach · 09-04-2011 10:16pm

shanew wrote: »

to check which towns and townland are in each district use the townland database at : www.seanruad.com Enter the name of the district you wish to search for in the Poor Law Union field (select no other fields) and search...

Now there's a ghost from the past! Sean Ruadh. He telephoned me for assistance once. A few months later, he was dead (no connection, I hope).

Okay, I can generate a list of the parishes in Rathdown, which is an advance. My great-grandfather travelled at least 30 miles to get married.

Marriages usually took place in the bride's parish - this could be the parish of her family home, or just where she was living at the time.

Family home would be best.

It's common to find the bride's occupation not filled in - sometimes even if they are known to have had one at the time

Failing to get an occupation would be a disappointment, but not a surprise. But getting an occupation for my great-grandfather would be something.

P. Breathnach · 14-04-2011 1:01pm

Got my photocopies today. Quite legible. So I now know a little more about my antecedents. And, of course, have more puzzles to crack.

I am fairly sure that my great-grandfather was born in the early 1830s and that he was the occupier of a modest house in Arklow in 1865. I suspected that when he married my great-grandmother in 1876, it might be a second marriage for him (but I had no evidence or clear indication of it). The register records him as a bachelor: should I regard that as having strong evidential value, and proceed on the assumption that he was simply slow to get around to finding himself a wife?

His occupation was given as Railway Porter. As he was already in his 40s, I don't see that he was having a brilliant career. A few years later, probably when he was over 50, he moved with his wife and four children to Dublin. Can anybody imagine why he would do such a thing?

My great-grandmother was a servant, and her father was a labourer. Her address was given as 2 Tivoli Terrace South, Kingstown. It is obvious that this is where she worked. Does it look like I might be at a dead end on her place of origin? Might the church records (if they exist) shed any more light on her story?

shanew · 14-04-2011 1:36pm

The parish marriage records would probably not give any more details - but a small of parishes do include mothers names, and may also include a separate basic 'address' for the father

Since the marriage may have been in the bride's birth parish (as well as her place of residence) It's possibly worth searching the parish records back to see if there's a baptism for her..

You may also find baptisms for children in the same parish - if they stayed in the area. Sometime sponsors (godparents) can be siblings or other relations.

Shane

shanew · 14-04-2011 1:46pm

2 Tivoli Terrace South, Kingstown

Mrs. Stewart

Other occupants of the terrace include an RN Capt, and a couple of barristers. Most of the other are Esq.

(Thom's 1877)

Shane

P. Breathnach · 14-04-2011 2:34pm

shanew wrote: »

2 Tivoli Terrace South, Kingstown

Mrs. Stewart

Other occupants of the terrace include an RN Capt, and a couple of barristers. Most of the other are Esq.

(Thom's 1877)

Thanks for that Shane. Clearly not the abode of a labourer whose daughter is in service. Good genteel upper middle-class Kingstown.

My ancestor seems to have been one of the nameless ones below stairs.

Ordering Certificates: Long Form or Photocopy?

Comments