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Dart Fine *& Appeal

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    #32
    Xterminator
    Registered Users Posts: 4,717 ✭✭✭Xterminator


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Irish Rail has to prove intent to defraud them of the fare. You hold a valid, in credit leap card, the equipment is broken, you are under no obligation to take further action.

    If the ticket machine is broken on the bus you travel for free....


    how factually incorrect can you get? Did you even read the T's& C's ?


    OP does not claim all the machines were broken. Simply that his teenager 'said' one of the validators was not working on the day in question.

    They appealed and lost - likely on the factual basis there was a working validator on the day in question in the station.
    Ticket Vending Machines are in operation throughout our network. These machines are monitored and regularly maintained to ensure that they are operational. Irish Rail is automatically notified if the TVMs are out of order. In the unlikely event that the booking office is closed and all the Ticket Vending Machines are not working, you will be required to pay for your journey on the train or at your destination. Failure to pay the required fare will result in a Fixed Payment Notice being issued.


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    #33
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    TVMs can be physically working but locked away inside a station building or their outdoor cabins which have shutters; or they can be on but not responding to screen inputs or whatever - its far from foolproof and claiming they are "automatically notified" is at best over-optimistic if not actually lying.


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    #34
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭kirving


    L1011 wrote: »
    not responding to screen inputs or whatever - its far from foolproof and claiming they are "automatically notified" is at best over-optimistic if not actually lying.

    I'd love to see how they can detect a non-working touchscreen in real time. Aerospace levels of redundancy would be needed - so I'd go for the lying option.

    You would think whoever saw the daily tap on/off history on that card would use a bit of common sense and cancel the fine.


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    #35
    redman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭redman


    Hi All

    I appreciate all the replies and I paid the fine but also followed up with an FOI request on the machines.
    So to be fair to Irish Rail they sent me a 3 page report showing tags from that morning, so clearly there was and my daughter didn't look around enough!

    So lesson learnt for her.
    I would still prefer to buy a set monthly/annual ticket for them (not much use at mo lol) to avoid in future, but they only sell the adult ones.

    Stay well my boardsie friends !

    Redman


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    #36
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,132 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Xterminator wrote: »
    how factually incorrect can you get? Did you even read the T's& C's ?


    OP does not claim all the machines were broken. Simply that his teenager 'said' one of the validators was not working on the day in question.

    They appealed and lost - likely on the factual basis there was a working validator on the day in question in the station.

    I have yet to see anyone win an appeal. The whole appeals setup is to pacify you when dealing with the staff so you believe it is all a misunderstanding that will go away. It has no legal basis.

    Those aren't the T&C's, thats a random piece of text which has no basis in law or the T&C's published. There are lots of things Irish Rail say you cannot do but are completely legal.

    The law is what counts,
    123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005
    travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment,

    Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

    You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.


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    #37
    redman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭redman


    I didn't know THAT! THANKS


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    #38
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    I have yet to see anyone win an appeal. The whole appeals setup is to pacify you when dealing with the staff so you believe it is all a misunderstanding that will go away. It has no legal basis.

    Those aren't the T&C's, thats a random piece of text which has no basis in law or the T&C's published. There are lots of things Irish Rail say you cannot do but are completely legal.

    The law is what counts,
    123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005


    Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

    You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

    I won an appeal. Broken machine, fined on arrival. Appealed, explained, fine cancelled.


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    #39
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    goingnowhere wrote: »


    Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

    You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

    That's not 100% correct. Trying every reader and then saying sod it and travelling anyway is not showing intent to pay.
    You need to exhaust all other means of paying including buying a single ticket for your journey if you can't use your leap card at the departure point or destination.

    Also a leap card is NOT valid for travel unless you have tapped on at a validator. The clue is in the name.
    If people follow the advice that you have posted here they may find themselves in hot water.


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    #40
    timeToLive
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭timeToLive


    Unfortunately it's a poorly thought out system and genuine customers will fall through the cracks from time to time. Today it's your daughter, tomorrow it's another poster here. I wonder how much money they have scammed from their own paying customers in total.


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    #41
    Marty Bird
    Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    timeToLive wrote: »
    Unfortunately it's a poorly thought out system and genuine customers will fall through the cracks from time to time. Today it's your daughter, tomorrow it's another poster here. I wonder how much money they have scammed from their own paying customers in total.

    Or another way of looking at it how much revenue do they lose to fare evasion from people doing exactly what this thread is about.


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    #42
    timeToLive
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭timeToLive


    Marty Bird wrote: »
    Or another way of looking at it how much revenue do they lose to fare evasion from people doing exactly what this thread is about.


    The person we're talking about it a paying customer :eek:



    They should look at how much they're losing due to faulty machines.


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    #43
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,097 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

    You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

    But this doesn't hold water.

    If I had a valid card but I decided I didn't want to bother paying, in your example I could walk into the station, walk to the machines, take out a random card and pretend to tap them, then get on the train and claim that the machines were not working.

    I thought by the way you were talking you had real evidence, not just some interpretation that is easily gainsaid.


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    #44
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    post 35 shows that the machine was working and evidence to show this was provided. Thus the tag was not performed properly or was forgotten altogether.


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    #45
    Seaswimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Seaswimmer


    I am not a regular Dart user so maybe someone can answer my query.

    Is a validator not part of a gate.
    I touch my Leapcard, the gate opens and lets me through.
    Surely if a validator is faulty then the gate dosent open or is permanently closed?
    Are there validators on the Dart system on poles similar to the Luas where you can tag on without going through a gate?


  • Options
    #46
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Seaswimmer wrote: »
    I am not a regular Dart user so maybe someone can answer my query.

    Is a validator not part of a gate.
    I touch my Leapcard, the gate opens and lets me through.
    Surely if a validator is faulty then the gate dosent open or is permanently closed?
    Are there validators on the Dart system on poles similar to the Luas where you can tag on without going through a gate?

    At ungated stations or platforms without gatelines within a gated station. So quite a lot of them


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    #47
    Akesh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭Akesh


    Seaswimmer wrote: »
    I am not a regular Dart user so maybe someone can answer my query.

    Is a validator not part of a gate.
    I touch my Leapcard, the gate opens and lets me through.
    Surely if a validator is faulty then the gate dosent open or is permanently closed?
    Are there validators on the Dart system on poles similar to the Luas where you can tag on without going through a gate?

    Yes, the gates are often open. Sometimes when you need to tag on they won't work. 5 mins later they will be working. Sometimes that can be the difference between getting the last train or not.

    I always take video evidence of validators not working in stations as you are wasting your time appealing to the RPU team.

    The Luas has a far better system and better trained staff when there are problems.


  • Options
    #48
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    timeToLive wrote: »
    Unfortunately it's a poorly thought out system and genuine customers will fall through the cracks from time to time. Today it's your daughter, tomorrow it's another poster here. I wonder how much money they have scammed from their own paying customers in total.

    While I don’t like the word scammed here, this is a point too many posters and staff of companies need to reflect on.

    I’m not an advocate of totally free public transport systems but the way some staff and others act about people who make mistakes pushes more towards thinking it’s a good idea. The system of fines isn’t supposed to be these for people who intended to pay and made a mistake.

    If you’re reading this and thinking “but...”, your kind of view will likely be the number one reasoning for me eventually thinking a system of free access to public transport is worth it. I still think we’re not there yet, but you might push me towards it once other issues can be sorted.


  • Options
    #49
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    monument wrote: »
    While I don’t like the word scammed here, this is a point too many posters and staff of companies need to reflect on.

    I’m not an advocate of totally free public transport systems but the way some staff and others act about people who make mistakes pushes more towards thinking it’s a good idea. The system of fines isn’t supposed to be these for people who intended to pay and made a mistake.

    If you’re reading this and thinking “but...”, your kind of view will likely be the number one reasoning for me eventually thinking a system of free access to public transport is worth it. I still think we’re not there yet, but you might push me towards it once other issues can be sorted.

    It's free to far to many as it is. The fine is there for non payment genuine mistake or otherwise thats what appeal process is for. . Of course there are those that didn't intend to not pay and it's a costly error but there cant be a point where all someone has to say that it was a genuine mistake to get out from paying a fine. I couldn't get away with a parking ticket or a speeding fine by saying that I didn't intend to do it and it was a genuine mistake.


  • Options
    #50
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    I have yet to see anyone win an appeal. The whole appeals setup is to pacify you when dealing with the staff so you believe it is all a misunderstanding that will go away. It has no legal basis.

    Those aren't the T&C's, thats a random piece of text which has no basis in law or the T&C's published. There are lots of things Irish Rail say you cannot do but are completely legal.

    The law is what counts,
    123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005


    Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

    You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

    Only flow in that is that you would also need to provide proof that you had sufficient credit on the card for it to open the barrier.


  • Options
    #51
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    goingnowhere wrote: »

    The law is what counts,
    123(3)a Rail Safety Act 2005


    Most important element is "intent to avoid", you show up with a valid leap card, you try to tap on it doesn't work as the validator is broken. You try the other validator, it doesn't work either. Its all on CCTV... The validators have a wonderful tendency to lock up and come back to life 10-15 minutes later.

    You have demonstrated intent to pay and if you hold video or photographic proof Irish Rail haven't a hope to succeed in prosecution.

    Fines are not issued for non payment however so what you posted is irrelevant.

    They are issued for not producing a valid ticket when asked (section 132 as listed on a FPN) which can be for a multitude of reasons (Leap not tagged on, you were in a hurry/running late or just plain refusing to pay).


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    #52
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,132 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Fines are not issued for non payment however so what you posted is irrelevant.

    They are issued for not producing a valid ticket when asked (section 132 as listed on a FPN) which can be for a multitude of reasons (Leap not tagged on, you were in a hurry/running late or just plain refusing to pay).

    What I quoted is section 132, typo on my part
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/31/enacted/en/print#sec132


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    #53
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    What I quoted is section 132, typo on my part
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/31/enacted/en/print#sec132

    Its 132 (2a) that you get fined for. "offer up" means produce.

    The rest of the section does not count.


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