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Commercial motor tax question

2

Comments

  • #32
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    the problem here is that the op is paye , their job finishs at closing time. unless you could show you were paid overtime etc

    if the op wasa self employed or a subcontracter then there would be no finish time. most of us trademen work 60-70 hours a week between billable work and behind the scenes work like paper work and looking at jobs. if i got pulled over and asked about the comercial tax i would tell the guarda that i was coming from a job or colecting something for the day after etc. 90% of the time it would be correct anyway. who would know or prove that it wasnt true.



    the system is crazy. you should be able to split the tax and pay a percentage of comercial and private if you want


  • #33
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    U_Fig wrote: »
    Then the car is modified and you declare it to insurance and they double your premium. :-/

    On most of them you can spec privacy windows from new. The cars are designed to remove the seats. Unless you have changed the performance of the vehicle they generally don't care about modifications, so a few metal panels will have little impact.

    But I like how you are worried about making sure that the small business owner is staying legal, so you agree that they should tax it privately if they use it privately.


  • #34
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Del2005 wrote: »
    On most of them you can spec privacy windows from new. The cars are designed to remove the seats. Unless you have changed the performance of the vehicle they generally don't care about modifications, so a few metal panels will have little impact.

    But I like how you are worried about making sure that the small business owner is staying legal, so you agree that they should tax it privately if they use it privately.

    ah but you have to get it through the NCT, a car with the back seats missing and metal plates fitted or not fitted is going to present problems.


  • #35
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Isambard wrote: »
    ah but you have to get it through the NCT, a car with the back seats missing and metal plates fitted or not fitted is going to present problems.

    Do what everyone else who has modified their car, replace the bits you removed and remove the bits you added.
    How can a modification no longer present to be a problem?


  • #36
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    what , you mean apart from invalidating your Insurance when they are present?


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  • #37
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,230 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    All interesting work arounds to try and make sense of a flawed system.

    I have a better plan.

    Let's introduce a Motor Tax system that is fair for all.
    Let people drive a van privately if they want to without ripping them off through the cc rate tax.
    Let people use their commercial tax van to collect a kid from school or go to the shop with out falling foul of the law.
    As long as the vehicle is taxed,tested and insured there should be no problem.

    In simple terms make a Motor Tax regime to suit how people live and work.


  • #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    elperello wrote: »
    All interesting work arounds to try and make sense of a flawed system.

    I have a better plan.

    Let's introduce a Motor Tax system that is fair for all.
    Let people drive a van privately if they want to without ripping them off through the cc rate tax.
    Let people use their commercial tax van to collect a kid from school or go to the shop with out falling foul of the law.
    As long as the vehicle is taxed,tested and insured there should be no problem.

    In simple terms make a Motor Tax regime to suit how people live and work.

    The fact is that there is no issue at all using your commercial privately so it’s not really a problem anyone faces as they simply don’t care (or in many cases don’t even realise) that technically it’s not allowed. There are one or two posting in this thread that care more about it than almost every commercial driver in the country added up and multiplied by a large number.


  • #39
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,230 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Lamar Millions Farmyard wrote: »
    The fact is that there is no issue at all using your commercial privately so it’s not really a problem anyone faces as they simply don’t care (or in many cases don’t even realise) that technically it’s not allowed. There are one or two posting in this thread that care more about it than almost every commercial driver in the country added up and multiplied by a large number.

    Of course you are right.

    AGS seem to have washed their hands of the matter. Only a multi agency check point is likely to pick up on it.

    However the fact remains that ordinary decent people are being put on the wrong side of the law by this flawed system.


  • #40
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    elperello wrote: »
    Of course you are right.

    AGS seem to have washed their hands of the matter. Only a multi agency check point is likely to pick up on it.

    However the fact remains that ordinary decent people are being put on the wrong side of the law by this flawed system.

    this is true. what can you do. buy a private vehicle probably

    what happen then if you nip into your local hardware to colect something for a job or go to price a job. you are then using your privatly taxed vehicle for comercial use


  • #41
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    i know it's not allowed and that was always the case, it never stopped me in my van driving days from using the van for private purposes. The difference is I knew it's not allowed, and many people seem to think it's a right. In my case it was a concession my employer got that I took advantage of.

    So I agree a better system is needed, one with a level playing field, where everyone taxing a vehicle pays the same as anyone else for a similar vehicle. Self-employed and business users would still be better off as they could claim it against their tax


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  • #42
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    this is true. what can you do. buy a private vehicle probably

    what happen then if you nip into your local hardware to colect something for a job or go to price a job. you are then using your privatly taxed vehicle for comercial use
    which is allowed


  • #43
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,230 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    this is true. what can you do. buy a private vehicle probably

    what happen then if you nip into your local hardware to colect something for a job or go to price a job. you are then using your privatly taxed vehicle for comercial use

    I know a couple of small operators who are using cars with roof racks to carry ladders and trailers to haul loads etc.
    They are using private insured cars for business purposes.


  • #44
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    elperello wrote: »
    I know a couple of small operators who are using cars with roof racks to carry ladders and trailers to haul loads etc.
    They are using private insured cars for business purposes.

    does that not invalidate the insurance


  • #45
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Isambard wrote: »
    which is allowed

    why bother with comercial then


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    why bother with comercial then

    Because it’s cheaper in most cases especially if it’s 4x4s or larger vans.


  • #47
    Homer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,259 ✭✭✭Homer


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    does that not invalidate the insurance

    Yes it specifically states on your policy not for commercial, hire or reward or words to that effect.


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Homer wrote: »
    Yes it specifically states on your policy not for commercial, hire or reward or words to that effect.

    You can add business use which covers you for use in your own business or in connection with your work if you are paye, costs very little extra. Anyone who drives their private car for work needs to add and a lot of people actually use their car for work.


  • #49
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    Hi all, thought I'd jump on this thread as I was going to create a new post but people subbed to this thread will probably be better placed to answer my query.

    Basically I'm getting thrown by Form RF111A.

    Here's the background...

    - I run a Ltd company (I'm the sole employee) and wanted to buy a car through the company, but will only be using the car for personal use not related to the business.

    - In order to use a car for personal use, the employee needs to pay BIK, but if the car is a commercial vehicle this is reduced to 5% BIK. I decided a car-derived van would be suitable as I only need max of 2 seats (https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/benefit-in-kind-for-employers/private-use-of-company-vans/calculating-the-cash-equivalent-of-company-vans.aspx)

    - I found a car-derived van that I want (hatchback with no rear seats and panels on rear windows) and put down a deposit on it. The company name will be on the vehicle.

    - I went and got an insurance quote under the assumption I will be taxing it as a commercial vehicle. The insurance quote was for a commercial vehicle (though this type of van can also be insured as a private if I choose)

    While waiting for the insurance quote forms to arrive, I've been told by the garage that I need to fill in a RF111A form if the vehicle is going to be taxed as a commercial vehicle.


    Now here's where I'm confused. The RF111A form says
    I declare that vehicle will be used only as a
    goods carrying vehicle in the course of my business/trade and will not be used at any
    time for social, domestic or pleasure purposes.

    but... that's exactly what I will be using it for?


    So here's the thing... am I not supposed to tax it as a commercial vehicle... and therefore should the insurance quote be for a private vehicle as well?!


  • #50
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,381 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    It’s only a declaration, shur everyone’s at it.


  • #51
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    It’s only a declaration, shur everyone’s at it.

    Did the motor tax office not get the memo?


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  • #52
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,381 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    You will be taxing it as commercial I assume?


  • #53
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    You will be taxing it as commercial I assume?

    yeah I bolded the text that was relevant in my post

    I'd tax it as private if that's preferable (plus I could avail of cheaper insurance if it's privately taxed).

    I was just going to tax is as commercial and pay more for commercial insurance as I thought that was the way it was supposed to be done. :confused:


  • #54
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,381 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Where’s the issue then?
    If you don’t want to have a commercial vehicle and dodge the full BIK, then buy a car. If you don’t want to sign a declaration and then do the opposite of what you signed (same as everyone else does) then dint buy a van, or else tax the van at the engine cc rate.

    I might be missing something here, but I can’t see what the query is. Vans are vans and cars are cars.


  • #55
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Where’s the issue then?
    If you don’t want to have a commercial vehicle and dodge the full BIK, then buy a car. If you don’t want to sign a declaration and then do the opposite of what you signed (same as everyone else does) then dint buy a van, or else tax the van at the engine cc rate.

    I might be missing something here, but I can’t see what the query is. Vans are vans and cars are cars.

    Actually the definitions for BIK and motor tax are different. The OP could benefit from the reduced rate of BIK even if he did not tax or insure it as a goods vehicle.


  • #56
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,381 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Actually the definitions for BIK and motor tax are different. The OP could benefit from the reduced rate of BIK even if he did not tax or insure it as a goods vehicle.

    Absolutely, which is why I suggested he tax it privately if he doesn’t want to sign the declaration.


  • #57
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    BIK on private car is 30%

    BIK on commercial car which is for private use is 5% ... hence reason I'm deciding to go with a commercial vehicle


    Reason it's better to buy through company than private is you can claim back VAT and charge expenses to company


    So, my assumption is that it needs to be taxed/insured as commercial, but the RF111A form contradicts the "BIK on commercial car which is for private use is 5%" by saying I cannot use a commercial car for private use.

    That's the conflict.


  • #58
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,183 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    BIK on private car is 30%

    BIK on commercial car which is for private use is 5% ... hence reason I'm deciding to go with a commercial vehicle


    Reason it's better to buy through company than private is you can claim back VAT and charge expenses to company


    So, my assumption is that it needs to be taxed/insured as commercial, but the RF111A form contradicts the "BIK on commercial car which is for private use is 5%" by saying I cannot use a commercial car for private use.

    That's the conflict.
    There is no definition of a “commercial car”; the question, for BIK purposes, is whether the vehicle is

    “Van” means a mechanically propelled road vehicle which—

    (a) is designed or constructed solely or mainly for the carriage of goods or other burden,
    (b) has a roofed area or areas to the rear of the driver’s seat,
    (c) has no side windows or seating fitted in that roofed area or areas, and
    (d) has a gross vehicle weight not exceeding 3,500 kilograms.


    Whether it has goods vehicle or private vehicle motor tax is irrelevant. Don’t submit a false motor tax declaration would be my advice.


  • #59
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    Marcusm wrote: »
    There is no definition of a “commercial car”; the question, for BIK purposes, is whether the vehicle is...

    The BIK calculation isn't in question: it's 5% if using it for personal use.

    It's a van. Known as a "car-derived van" (a hatchback with rear caged-off area and no seats/windows)
    Marcusm wrote: »
    Whether it has goods vehicle or private vehicle motor tax is irrelevant.

    No it IS relevant. I believe need to tax it as a commercial vehicle as that is what it is, but I also need to submit the form alongside it which promises I won't use it for personal use... which I will be.

    Anyway I thought someone here might know, I'll just contact the motor tax office in the morning.


  • #60
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,230 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    St1mpMeister wrote: »
    The BIK calculation isn't in question: it's 5% if using it for personal use.

    It's a van. Known as a "car-derived van" (a hatchback with rear caged-off area and no seats/windows)



    No it IS relevant. I believe need to tax it as a commercial vehicle as that is what it is, but I also need to submit the form alongside it which promises I won't use it for personal use... which I will be.

    Anyway I thought someone here might know, I'll just contact the motor tax office in the morning.

    You have stumbled into a slightly eccentric corner of our motor tax system

    You can tax your commercial vehicle privately.
    If you do so you do not need to submit the form.

    The vehicle will still need to be tested annually under the CVRT system.
    Your insurance will still cover it for commercial use.


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  • #61
    St1mpMeister
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭St1mpMeister


    elperello wrote: »
    You have stumbled into a slightly eccentric corner of our motor tax system

    You can tax your commercial vehicle privately.
    If you do so you do not need to submit the form.

    Indeed. I contacted the motor tax office today and they confirmed I "can choose" which way to tax it since it hasn't been taxed before (new van).
    elperello wrote: »
    The vehicle will still need to be tested annually under the CVRT system.
    Your insurance will still cover it for commercial use.

    My insurance said it was based on which type of tax I had it under, I'll have to double-check this. Private insurance is cheaper.

    If the van is taxed as private does that mean it's regarded as a private car at tolls? Or is that based on the reg plates being registered as "commercial" ?


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