Landlords who don't allow working from home?

lucernarian · 07-07-2020 1:55pm #1

Hey all,

I've just been shown an email from a friend, who as a potential tenant was refused tenancy because he'd be working from home. Something about insurance and "Health and Safety" it was. I was gonna laugh at how silly it sounded, but thought I'd double check this.

I found nothing searching here or online. Is there *any* truth to this idea whatsoever?

awec · 07-07-2020 1:59pm

There is only an implication for insurance or H+S if your friends job would involve clients or customers visiting him in his home, or other people were coming to his house to work etc.

gibgodsman · 07-07-2020 2:00pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Hey all,

I've just been shown an email from a friend, who as a potential tenant was refused tenancy because he'd be working from home. Something about insurance and "Health and Safety" it was. I was gonna laugh at how silly it sounded, but thought I'd double check this.

I found nothing searching here or online. Is there *any* truth to this idea whatsoever?

Hard to answer without knowing what his job is?

lickalot · 07-07-2020 2:05pm

Well like probably understandable if a carpenter or something who wants to setup a workshop or something out the back or work on cars.

More to this than meets the eye to be honest. Why would you disclose it even to the Landlord if you were just sitting at a laptop all day.

lucernarian · 07-07-2020 2:14pm

He works in IT, just a laptop and internet sort of job. He mentioned it as good internet is required for his work. No visiting clients or anything like that

JimmyVik · 07-07-2020 2:18pm

If its an apartment the management company could be the ones making the rules and the landlord is just following that.

daithi7 · 07-07-2020 2:20pm

I can fully understand it in 'room to let' letting, as the house owner is then providing both an office & a residential home.

On a general letting , I think it's debatable also tbh, I mean there's no doubt that providing a dwelling that provides a home office/ working solution that is utilised is going to get far more wear & tear than just providing a residential dwelling.... it could be legitimate grounds for a landlord (who was agreeing to home working) to be able to charge more legimately surely?!

I mean many workers get an allowance from their employers if they work from home, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a landlord charges more to facilitate this also.

MacDanger · 07-07-2020 2:22pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Hey all,

I've just been shown an email from a friend, who as a potential tenant was refused tenancy because he'd be working from home. Something about insurance and "Health and Safety" it was. I was gonna laugh at how silly it sounded, but thought I'd double check this.

I found nothing searching here or online. Is there *any* truth to this idea whatsoever?

It sounds like a BS excuse from the LL imo but it's their property so they're entitled to let to whoever they want. Maybe your friend shouldn't mention it the next time I guess

whomitconcerns · 07-07-2020 2:25pm

Your entitled to peaceful enjoyment of your home and that restriction would not work in law. Tell him that's grand I won't work from home so, nothing he can do about it. Unless you do mean he is running a business from that address is the company is based at that address. That would not be allowed in a lot of leases

lucernarian · 07-07-2020 3:29pm

daithi7 wrote: »

I can fully understand it in 'room to let' letting, as the house owner is then providing both an office & a residential home.

On a general letting , I think it's debatable also tbh, I mean there's no doubt that providing a dwelling that provides a home office/ working solution that is utilised is going to get far more wear & tear than just providing a residential dwelling.... it could be legitimate grounds for a landlord (who was agreeing to home working) to be able to charge more legimately surely?!

I mean many workers get an allowance from their employers if they work from home, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a landlord charges more to facilitate this also.

Thats a different story though, people can set what prices they may for various circumstances. In this case, the tenancy was denied outright.

As for people being paid to work extra at home, lol. Is that for some public service jobs? I can't imagine it and don't know anyone who got paid more during this situation, only the opposite.

lucernarian · 07-07-2020 3:30pm

lickalot wrote: »

Well like probably understandable if a carpenter or something who wants to setup a workshop or something out the back or work on cars.

More to this than meets the eye to be honest. Why would you disclose it even to the Landlord if you were just sitting at a laptop all day.

You make it sound like the hundreds of thousands working remotely are some kind of conspiracy

Uncle Pierre · 07-07-2020 3:39pm

lucernarian wrote: »

As for people being paid to work extra at home, lol. Is that for some public service jobs? I can't imagine it and don't know anyone who got paid more during this situation, only the opposite.

There's been a provision in place for a few years now (so it's not Covid-19 related), where an employer can pay an employee an allowance of up to €3.20 per day, tax free, for working from home.

Idea is that it helps cover the costs of light, heat, etc., that you wouldn't normally incur during that time if you were in an office instead.

It's not a public sector thing, as I'm in the public sector now myself, and we got a memo early on in this whole thing to say no extra allowance would be paid for working from home.

However, I did use to get it in a previous job (private sector), and my wife's workplace (also private sector) paid it from late March to late June, while their offices were completely closed. Reckon the way they saw it, they were saving money themselves on electricity, etc., so they gave it to the workers who were using it at home instead.

Still works out at just €16 per week though, so it wouldn't really justify a landlord charging extra rent because somebody's working from home, either part-time or full-time.

lickalot · 07-07-2020 3:40pm

lucernarian wrote: »

You make it sound like the hundreds of thousands working remotely are some kind of conspiracy

I'm working from home the last four months, just find it strange that someone would even bother mention it to a Landlord is all or the Landlord would have an issue with it.

Maybe the Landlord was trying to avoid taxes and registering or something and thought working from home would flag it.

Donald Trump · 07-07-2020 5:36pm

Would the landlord be living there as well?

If that was the case he'd be perfectly justified

punisher5112 · 07-07-2020 5:39pm

In future let the friend know, internet connection speeds can be got online from the providers with the address.

Dav010 · 07-07-2020 6:11pm

I can't understand why the Landlord is even giving a reason for refusing an applicant, or why a tenant would even say that he was going to be working from home. Is this a wind up?

07-07-2020 7:58pm

It sounds legit to me. One of the stipulations of my house insurance (which was a standard requirement in all quotes I got) was that I'm not using my residence for work.

Of course, this is probably a standard clause from back when working in the home meant hairdressers/childminding/a home practice such as dentist/doctor, etc. I doubt it's really meant to apply to the many office workers who are now working remotely at their laptops, but an insurer could take you up on this technicality if you put a claim in and you were found to be working from home.

I'd say the landlord is genuinely just concerned that if he/she needed to make a claim, there's email evidence showing that they knew the tenant was using the residence for work purposes.

dennyk · 07-07-2020 8:08pm

Some landlords want tenants who are in the place as little as possible, figuring there will somehow be less wear and tear. Or else they're a bit paranoid or out of touch and don't really grasp the concept of "working remotely" and assume the tenant is going to be running a traditional business of some sort out of their sitting room and making a mess or causing all sorts of damage and/or disruption.

As for how it would come up, OP noted that their friend asked about the Internet service; probably just casually mentioned "Oh, I'll need reliable Internet as I work from home", not figuring it would be a big deal.

Now, if this is a house share situation, then I could certainly understand the landlord's reluctance; they might not want a live-in tenant who's going to be around literally 24/7, or who they're going to have to tiptoe around for 40+ hours a week for fear of disrupting their work.

daithi7 wrote: »

On a general letting , I think it's debatable also tbh, I mean there's no doubt that providing a dwelling that provides a home office/ working solution that is utilised is going to get far more wear & tear than just providing a residential dwelling.... it could be legitimate grounds for a landlord (who was agreeing to home working) to be able to charge more legimately surely?!

The point of the reimbursement/tax break is to compensate employees for providing their own electricity, Internet service, heating, etc. during work hours and setting up a space in their home to work from. If the tenant is paying for their own utilities, a landlord has no reason to charge more for them working from home at a desk job. "More wear and tear" is a ridiculous excuse; sitting in a chair (which the tenant probably bought themselves, since I've never seen a rental property with an office setup provided) for an extra 40 hours a week, flushing the toilet a few more times a day, and maybe using the kitchen to prepare a few more meals a week hardly justifies jacking up the rent. What's next, landlords requiring their tenants to wear FitBits while at home and fining them for taking too many steps per day and causing more "wear and tear" on the flooring?

07-07-2020 8:11pm

lucernarian wrote: »

He works in IT, just a laptop and internet sort of job. He mentioned it as good internet is required for his work. No visiting clients or anything like that

Hmmmmm, perhaps the landlord has been stung by hookers before??

Samuel T. Cogley · 07-07-2020 8:34pm

Was part of my insurance renewal that the only working from home was incidental office work.

JimmyVik · 08-07-2020 9:27am

Dav010 wrote: »

I can't understand why the Landlord is even giving a reason for refusing an applicant, or why a tenant would even say that he was going to be working from home. Is this a wind up?

Very good point.

lucernarian · 08-07-2020 12:44pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I can't understand why the Landlord is even giving a reason for refusing an applicant, or why a tenant would even say that he was going to be working from home. Is this a wind up?

Of all the replies, this sticks out. Seems obvious why someone would ask about good internet cause they need it for their job. These are all house shares btw, and I know some people don't want fixed line contracts or installations carried out in their premises for one. My friend hadn't encountered any issues in his search using the same template text for other places before or since. The majority of places he's viewed so far have had people also working from home since the lockdown started.

He never heard any more from the landlord, not that there's any point talking about a rejected offer to view/let once the decision's been made.

I wonder if some of the people commenting on this have ever house shared in their working life, to think my story is a piss take...

lucernarian · 08-07-2020 12:50pm

dennyk wrote: »

Some landlords want tenants who are in the place as little as possible, figuring there will somehow be less wear and tear. Or else they're a bit paranoid or out of touch and don't really grasp the concept of "working remotely" and assume the tenant is going to be running a traditional business of some sort out of their sitting room and making a mess or causing all sorts of damage and/or disruption.

As for how it would come up, OP noted that their friend asked about the Internet service; probably just casually mentioned "Oh, I'll need reliable Internet as I work from home", not figuring it would be a big deal.

Now, if this is a house share situation, then I could certainly understand the landlord's reluctance; they might not want a live-in tenant who's going to be around literally 24/7, or who they're going to have to tiptoe around for 40+ hours a week for fear of disrupting their work.

The point of the reimbursement/tax break is to compensate employees for providing their own electricity, Internet service, heating, etc. during work hours and setting up a space in their home to work from. If the tenant is paying for their own utilities, a landlord has no reason to charge more for them working from home at a desk job. "More wear and tear" is a ridiculous excuse; sitting in a chair (which the tenant probably bought themselves, since I've never seen a rental property with an office setup provided) for an extra 40 hours a week, flushing the toilet a few more times a day, and maybe using the kitchen to prepare a few more meals a week hardly justifies jacking up the rent. What's next, landlords requiring their tenants to wear FitBits while at home and fining them for taking too many steps per day and causing more "wear and tear" on the flooring?

Yeah that's my take on it after thinking about it and asking around. I've actually asked a couple of landlords I know and they've mentioned nothing about extra wear and tear since lockdown. Cookers don't really break, washing machines and tumble dryers are used as much as before, same with showers and bathrooms mostly. The beds are used as often as before obviously, and the front door is used less

I think my friend is avoiding any house sharing where the owner lives there because of the lack of rights and stuff, but I'll confirm later.

JimmyVik · 08-07-2020 1:48pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Yeah that's my take on it after thinking about it and asking around. I've actually asked a couple of landlords I know and they've mentioned nothing about extra wear and tear since lockdown. Cookers don't really break, washing machines and tumble dryers are used as much as before, same with showers and bathrooms mostly. The beds are used as often as before obviously, and the front door is used less

I think my friend is avoiding any house sharing where the owner lives there because of the lack of rights and stuff, but I'll confirm later.

Is it a house share or his own place he is looking for.
I can see how peoiple in a house share would be against having someone working from home sharing with them.

CoffeeBean2 · 08-07-2020 3:02pm

As was argued here many times before, a house is for residential use only, not for running a business!

If you need a planning change of usage to operate an Airbnb, surely you should also need the same if you indent to work (full time) from home

ZeroThreat · 08-07-2020 3:45pm

Mr.S wrote: »

You are joking, right? Ahahah

Why not? Everyone has to wet their beak in some way.

micah537 · 08-07-2020 3:53pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Was part of my insurance renewal that the only working from home was incidental office work.

From an insurance point of view, wouldn't there be less risk if working from home.

Less chance of a break-in, if a pipe burst or fire started you would know quicker so less damage done.

Told the landlady in 2016 when viewing the house that I worked from home most days. She couldn't care less once the rent is paid.

CoffeeBean2 · 08-07-2020 4:26pm

Mr.S wrote: »

An employee working from home =/ running a business. Try again.

If you are working in the private sector and you are not helping run a business while working, I would argue that you are not working at all, or your employer does not need you.

Samuel T. Cogley · 08-07-2020 9:42pm

micah537 wrote: »

From an insurance point of view, wouldn't there be less risk if working from home.

Less chance of a break-in, if a pipe burst or fire started you would know quicker so less damage done.

Told the landlady in 2016 when viewing the house that I worked from home most days. She couldn't care less once the rent is paid.

You'd have to ask the insurer.

08-07-2020 10:31pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

If you are working in the private sector and you are not helping run a business while working, I would argue that you are not working at all, or your employer does not need you.

Working from home is not running a business from home end of story.

Even running many businesses from home does not require chance of use, for instance a farm house is the HQ of a farming business and they will have normal residential.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You'd have to ask the insurer.

I would safely say there isn’t a single person working from home even having the thought enter their head that they would say anything to their insurer as there is simply no need, working from home for a company is absolutely no different to just living in the house.

lucernarian · 09-07-2020 9:32am

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

If you are working in the private sector and you are not helping run a business while working, I would argue that you are not working at all, or your employer does not need you.

Are you joking?

There's hundreds of thousands working in the services industry and in IT who are working from home and aren't close to "running a business". I take it you are unfamiliar with these industries. An example would be a web developer. Are they helping to run Amazon/Google/Facebook? NO. Are they required for the core business? YES.

micah537 wrote:

From an insurance point of view, wouldn't there be less risk if working from home.

Less chance of a break-in, if a pipe burst or fire started you would know quicker so less damage done.

Good points there, wouldn't apply so much with landlord-type property insurance as it doesn't cover contents but certainly less risk of criminal damage or burst pipe damage.

Given the crazy replies by some people here, maybe the timing of this is perfect: https://dbei.gov.ie/en/Consultations/Public-Consultation-on-Guidance-for-Remote-Working.html although it's coming from an employment perspective, if there are a lot of doubts about insurance cover, landlord liability etc, these are all relevant matters that the govt should consider here.

Landlords who don't allow working from home?

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