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The erection & removal of British colonial monuments in Ireland

24567

Comments

  • #32
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,973 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Morlar wrote: »
    Would you say sensitive or insecure ?

    Sensitive for now, but that might change later on.:)


  • #33
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Didn't Obama send back a statue of Churchill that George Bush had in the White House. Appearently his Kenyan grandfather, Hussein Onyango Obama, was imprisoned without trial for two years and was tortured on Churchill's watch, for resisting the British empire.
    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Link?

    I answered that in post #19 with a link to the story.


  • #34
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Where should we stop in the scorched earth policy towards all things British? That clown, Noel Ahern (Bertie's brother), suggested some years ago that all the Royal ciphers should be ground off the pillar boxes around the country and there is some evidence that this policy was in part implemented. Should Leinster House itself be pulled down as it was the home of the Duke of Leinster - a member of the British establishment. Perhaps the GPO and Customs House too and, of course, that ultimate symbol of British oppression - Dublin Castle. Cultural vandalism is what it's called not patriotism.


  • #35
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Where should we stop in the scorched earth policy towards all things British? That clown, Noel Ahern (Bertie's brother), suggested some years ago that all the Royal ciphers should be ground off the pillar boxes around the country and there is some evidence that this policy was in part implemented. Should Leinster House itself be pulled down as it was the home of the Duke of Leinster - a member of the British establishment. Perhaps the GPO and Customs House too and, of course, that ultimate symbol of British oppression - Dublin Castle. Cultural vandalism is what it's called not patriotism.

    I think trying to conflate Colonial monuments - statuary erected to celebrate particular imperial/colonial events or persons - and buildings, adds little insight to the discussion.


  • #36
    delta_bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    They serve as a reminder as to our history as a colony of the British Empire. If you were to follow your logic we should destroy all vestiges of our colonial past: Leinster House, Trinity College, Georgian Dublin, Heuston Station and all of the old houses of the landed gentry. They are part of our history. It seems pathetic to want them all to be banished.


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  • #37
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    As I said he clinched the argument with " Indeed, I'm still looking for monuments erected by the British to people who fought against British rule "

    So you consider merely leaving a statue where it is to be a full endorsement of what that statue stands for and to be exactly the same as wanting to build that statue anew?
    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    And then this is coming from people like yourself who in any discussion about Sinn Fein or the north they start screaming " What about Jerry McCabe.....What about little Johnathon Ball " etc, etc

    I just did two searches on my user name there, and I have never once, in the 1883 posts I have on this site, mentioned either of those two men.


  • #38
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    delta_bravo wrote: »
    They serve as a reminder as to our history as a colony of the British Empire. If you were to follow your logic we should destroy all vestiges of our colonial past: Leinster House, Trinity College, Georgian Dublin, Heuston Station and all of the old houses of the landed gentry. They are part of our history. It seems pathetic to want them all to be banished.
    I thought MarchDub had covered those points in the preceding post to yours but here it is again - " I think trying to conflate Colonial monuments - statuary erected to celebrate particular imperial/colonial events or persons - and buildings, adds little insight to the discussion. "


  • #39
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    and obviously those more concerned with History & Heritage disagree.

    Conflate is a word you don't come across very often. In normal everyday discussions combine would work fine wouldn't it?


  • #40
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    and obviously those more concerned with History & Heritage disagree.


    And you are speaking as what? a spokesperson for the entire History and Heritage forum then? Your capitalised words would indicate that.
    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    Conflate is a word you don't come across very often. In normal everyday discussions combine would work fine wouldn't it?

    Sorry, I can't account for your everyday discussions or your literacy -

    Let me give you another word for your first remark - delusional.


  • #41
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    So you consider merely leaving a statue where it is to be a full endorsement of what that statue stands for and to be exactly the same as wanting to build that statue anew?
    Don't know how you came to this conclusion from my quoting of Rebelheart's statement ?
    I just did two searches on my user name there, and I have never once, in the 1883 posts I have on this site, mentioned either of those two men.
    Fair enough, it's another poster I had in mind.


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  • #42
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    I note that nobody has picked up on my reference to being uncomfortable in a country where my side of our collective history has to be expunged to satisfy the nationalist agenda. I live in a town with a fine statue by Oliver Sheppard celebrating/commemorating 1798, an event where at least four of my ancestors were murdered and two had a very narrow escape, and yet I campaign to keep the memorial graffiti free when perhaps I should be out pulling it down with a block and tackle like the Victoria fountain in Dun Laoghaire. :rolleyes:


  • #43
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    MarchDub wrote: »
    And you are speaking as what? a spokesperson for the entire History and Heritage forum then? Your capitalised words would indicate that.



    Sorry, I can't account for your everyday discussions or your literacy -

    Let me give you another word for your first remark - delusional.

    History & Heritage is about the preservation of artifacts and the sharing of knowledge. The destruction of material that helps us and future generations understand our history is not something that an historian or someone interested in history should ever promote.


  • #44
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    History & Heritage is about the preservation of artifacts and the sharing of knowledge. The destruction of material that helps us and future generations understand our history is not something that an historian or someone interested in history should ever promote.


    You have to know that is a gross oversimplification of how legacy works.

    By that measure all the signs in Germany ought to still bear the Hitler regime insignia and the southern states in the US would still bear the signs and statuary of segregation [I witnessed some of those being torn down myself] and the southern flag would be still set in stone on state buildings - and the Berlin Wall would still be standing... And Istanbul would still be called Constantinople.

    In fact part of history IS the destruction of the symbols of a repressed past.


  • #45
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    and obviously those more concerned with History & Heritage disagree.

    Conflate is a word you don't come across very often. In normal everyday discussions combine would work fine wouldn't it?
    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    History & Heritage is about the preservation of artifacts and the sharing of knowledge. The destruction of material that helps us and future generations understand our history is not something that an historian or someone interested in history should ever promote.

    Actually, History & Heritage is, clearly, a proper noun - more precisely, it refers to this forum. Bear this in mind next time you suggest the words posters here should, or shouldn't, use.

    If you're talking about history and heritage, in contrast, how conceited of you to claim that those who don't agree with your narrow self-serving interpretation of it have no concern for it. There are very few people here who have enough grá and meas for our history to dedicate years of their life to studying it to PhD level. You're not one of them.

    As for the apparently cataclysmic consequences for Irish heritage by the removal of these statues glorifying British imperialist warlords, give it a rest. That's really pathetic. These monuments glorifying British imperialism have been recorded in Irish history, as has the public regard for them. Although no doubt people like you are totally ignorant of the widespread hostility in Dublin to the erection of statues such as Nelson's Pillar in the first place. How ironic that it is people of your political views who are the real revisionists in this debate and condemning the rest of us for objecting to the disproportionate place held by these British nationalistic monuments in this, Irish, society.

    PS: 'An historian' is just pretentious - even according to the OED. Try 'a historian'.


  • #46
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MarchDub wrote: »
    In fact part of history IS the destruction of the symbols of a repressed past.

    Well said. What an utterly blinkered view of "history" is held by some posters here.


  • #47
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Rebelheart infracted for being aggressive and rude. This is an important debate in Irish history so I am inclined to leave it up but if things get more heated I won't hesitate to lock and ban anyone who crosses the line.


  • #48
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Where should we stop in the scorched earth policy towards all things British?

    There's your problem there. Try and extricate your conception of Britishness from the supremacism of British colonialism. Can you? That you expect the very people who persecuted, dominated and suppressed the Irish people for centuries to be honoured in Ireland for doing that speaks for your inability to empathise with those who have been on the receiving end of it. I've read some of your other posts, and you're clearly not obtuse. Insensitive, perhaps?

    And if you're looking for a real "scorched earth" policy in Irish history, try researching the actions of Sir Humphrey Gilbert in Munster and Sir Richard Bingham in Connacht. Pleading that the removal of monuments glorifying supremacist British warlords is on a par with a "scorched earth policy" beggars belief, never mind historical credibility.


  • #49
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Then I read the OP's post, got as far as the word bastards, and tuned out.

    I'm devastated.


  • #50
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Morlar wrote: »
    Would you say sensitive or insecure ?
    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Sensitive for now, but that might change later on.:)

    After this, the only aspiration I have left in life is to be as right-on and supercool as you two boys.


  • #51
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Where do you live? Not your actual address.

    Interesting username you have too - is it after Viscount Charlemont? :D

    I was under the impression that Charlemont is the English name for Achadh an Dá Chora in Armagh, where a quite important battle happened in 1650. It could be no connection to his username, but I surmised that it was.


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  • #52
    elmer
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭elmer


    I recently watched a program about similar statues in india created by foley, i believe it was on tg4. the indians decided to remove the statues and they're now in the grounds of a police training academy. It looked surreal but i thought it was a more apt demise than explosives for these very symbolic works of art.


  • #53
    SillyMcCarthy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭SillyMcCarthy


    Does that mean that we should destroy all the magnificant buildings built by the British also? The Georgian buildings that grace many a town & city across Ireland? The GPO, The Customs House, The Four Courts, all built by the British! I have no issue with any statues of memorials! If you walk in to any presbyterian church you'll find plenty on the walls there too!

    Or maybe they should remain as a reminder to all future generations of this state lest they forget our history & our struggle for independence from England. There are plenty of people in power at the moment who have forgotton the sacrifices made by so few!


  • #54
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Anyway, does anybody have any photographs of the monument to William of Orange in Boyle, or even know when it was removed?

    This is all I can find about that monument to date:

    'Also part of the grounds aesthetic appeal is that in it’s centre it possesses a stone plinth which once supported a statue of King William 111. It was moved to there from Boyle bridge after a new bridge was erected. An inscription “to the immortal memory of the glorious K.William 111 , this statue & pier were erected at the expense of Sir Edward King Bar. July 1 1763″ is one side and “On building the bridge of Boyle in 1834 this statue of the true friend of civil and religious liberty was taken down and placed in its present position by Robert Edward Viscount Lorton grandson of the Baronet A.D. 1835″ inscribed on the opposite side. Mystery surrounds the disappearance of the statue'. (Source: http://www.dublin1313.com/site/?p=571)


  • #55
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    SillyMcCarthy wrote: »
    Does that mean that we should destroy all the magnificant buildings built by the British also? The Georgian buildings that grace many a town & city across Ireland? The GPO, The Customs House, The Four Courts, all built by the British! I have no issue with any statues of memorials!

    Should the Germans destroy the useful autobahns because they were created by Hitler? But should they remove the statues glorifying Hitler?

    And as for this "Georgian" malarkey - what a British nationalist description if ever there has been one. Try Greco-Roman architecture. What next, the Latin alphabet becomes the "English" alphabet?


  • #56
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    SillyMcCarthy wrote: »
    Does that mean that we should destroy all the magnificant buildings built by the British also? The Georgian buildings that grace many a town & city across Ireland? The GPO, The Customs House, The Four Courts, all built by the British! I have no issue with any statues of memorials! If you walk in to any presbyterian church you'll find plenty on the walls there too!

    Or maybe they should remain as a reminder to all future generations of this state lest they forget our history & our struggle for independence from England. There are plenty of people in power at the moment who have forgotton the sacrifices made by so few!
    Well said. While it may be a bit much ( though they were "bastards" for what they did) to obliterate the statues, it would achieve more if they were suitably re-positioned to where we could still see them and learn about them. Knowlege is power.


  • #57
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    MarchDub wrote: »
    In fact part of history IS the destruction of the symbols of a repressed past.

    yes, by politicians and those with an axe to grind or a political point of view but it should never be by those who profess an interest in History & Heritage.


  • #58
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Actually, History & Heritage is, clearly, a proper noun - more precisely, it refers to this forum. Bear this in mind next time you suggest the words posters here should, or shouldn't, use.

    If you're talking about history and heritage, in contrast, how conceited of you to claim that those who don't agree with your narrow self-serving interpretation of it have no concern for it. There are very few people here who have enough grá and meas for our history to dedicate years of their life to studying it to PhD level. You're not one of them.

    As for the apparently cataclysmic consequences for Irish heritage by the removal of these statues glorifying British imperialist warlords, give it a rest. That's really pathetic. These monuments glorifying British imperialism have been recorded in Irish history, as has the public regard for them. Although no doubt people like you are totally ignorant of the widespread hostility in Dublin to the erection of statues such as Nelson's Pillar in the first place. How ironic that it is people of your political views who are the real revisionists in this debate and condemning the rest of us for objecting to the disproportionate place held by these British nationalistic monuments in this, Irish, society.

    PS: 'An historian' is just pretentious - even according to the OED. Try 'a historian'.

    no historian should ever promote the destruction of source material. It's totally contrary to the basics of those with an interest in History & Heritage.


  • #59
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    no historian should ever promote the destruction of source material. It's totally contrary to the basics of those with an interest in History & Heritage.

    Do you even understand what source material is? A statue of the overfed Victoria sitting perched on the top of Leinster House is not valuable source material. It is however a symbol - and perhaps even a misunderstood symbol if allowed to sit there.


  • #60
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Nonsense characterisation. The alternative is to allow the ethno-political viewpoint of a foreign elite to represent all of this society. This is what was happening under British rule. How is that right? Removing these monuments is a far more accurate reflection of Ireland than the cult this minority wanted to represent at the time.
    ?

    By this rationale would you advocate the removal of all the grottos and roadside statues that grace our villages and roadsides?


    And as for this "Georgian" malarkey - what a British nationalist description if ever there has been one. Try Greco-Roman architecture. What next, the Latin alphabet becomes the "English" alphabet?

    Ffs. Georgian is an architectually correct term. Will you want to censor terms like queen Anne leg to cabriole leg next? Will you similiarly recategorise Louis XIV furniture as pre revolutionary?

    You raised very interesting questions about our history and its subliminal effect on our streetscape and language, but there are practical considerations in eradicating the vestiges of our colonial past. For example I found the whole Dingle, now An Daingean fiasco a complete red herring.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • #61
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    johnny_doyle wrote: »
    no historian should ever promote the destruction of source material. It's totally contrary to the basics of those with an interest in History & Heritage.

    I'm sure you were sincere when you said that but if you think about or research history and historiography for a while you'll see that its the complete opposite to what you think right now. All historians have engaged in promoting some events and diminishing the importance of others. Some have been worse than others. Also nobody seriously thinks that removing monuments is the same as the removal, negation or destruction of history or source material.


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