Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

Sam Russell · 10-01-2021 3:42pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I was told (over two years ago) by people I know in Musgraves that they had already started shifting supplies to mainland Europe because of Brexit. Not sure how advanced that is at this stage, but you'd have to think that they'd be well sorted by now.

Good to hear that.

fly_agaric · 10-01-2021 3:48pm

View wrote: »

Absolutely correct and were we stupid enough to waive goods through without checking them in full, we’d face court cases in the CJEU for breaching EU customs rules and WTO cases as every other country in the world complained about us discriminating against their goods and in favour of British ones.

Needless to say, the individuals making the calls above won’t be putting their hands in their pockets to pay the fines we’d end up with after those court cases.

Yes, that is another thing that is annoying about it.
At least impression given by that article was that Revenue were trying to hold the line on it as much as they can in face of pressure.
In fairness to hauliers, assume they get caught in between poor preparation by businesses on UK side (somewhat understandable or expected given how the UK government has behaved) and on this side (less understandable given many, many warnings about Brexit and how it was not going to be a good thing for us + would disrupt selling to/buying from the UK).

breezy1985 · 10-01-2021 4:02pm

I don't know how it works out for stores profit wise but quality wise I would be more than happy with a switch to EU products.

I lived in the UK and the average food items in a supermarket are way below our standards. Stuff like Sainsburys Red Leicester or some of the meats almost had me running home with a nervous breakdown same goes for the bread.

The UK is easily as close as anywhere I know in Europe gets to the utter bland muck the USA serves up

strandroad · 10-01-2021 4:15pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I lived in the UK and the average food items in a supermarket are way below our standards. Stuff like Sainsburys Red Leicester or some of the meats almost had me running home with a nervous breakdown same goes for the bread.

The UK is easily as close as anywhere I know in Europe gets to the utter bland muck the USA serves up

I completely agree. Having had the opportunity to compare, UK grocery market is entirely consumed and driven by supermarkets, with the race to the bottom it requires. Continental supermarkets exist in the same space as produce market halls and dedicated bakeries, patisseries, chocolatiers etc so they don't stoop as low. What's "artisan" in the UK is staple food in France or Germany or Italy.
The difference in the use of plastic wrapping is very noticeable also, in Europe you weigh or count your loose fruit and veg in the UK it's pre-packaged in plastic.

completedit · 10-01-2021 4:17pm

Hopefully we can source some decent tomatoes in this post Brexit reality.

Sam Russell · 10-01-2021 4:49pm

strandroad wrote: »

I completely agree. Having had the opportunity to compare, UK grocery market is entirely consumed and driven by supermarkets, with the race to the bottom it requires. Continental supermarkets exist in the same space as produce market halls and dedicated bakeries, patisseries, chocolatiers etc so they don't stoop as low. What's "artisan" in the UK is staple food in France or Germany or Italy.
The difference in the use of plastic wrapping is very noticeable also, in Europe you weigh or count your loose fruit and veg in the UK it's pre-packaged in plastic.

I remember a few years ago on travels through France and frequenting the Carrefour supermarkets and marvelling at their fresh produce - not so much its freshness but the smell. If you stood next to any produce, you could smell it - tomatoes smelt of tomatoes, cabbage smelt of cabbage, strawberries of strawberries. Here in Ireland (and I suspect in the UK) everything smelt of nothing, because it was not that fresh but not gone off yet, and had been stored far too long in refrigerators and all the pleasant smells that should be there had long since gone.

Our fruit is imported immature and usually will rot from the inside before it ripens. This is particularly true of melons and pears.

Hopefully, after this settles down we will end up with European standards rather than those that the UK accepts, which are all based on price before quality.

embraer170 · 10-01-2021 6:54pm

strandroad wrote: »

I completely agree. Having had the opportunity to compare, UK grocery market is entirely consumed and driven by supermarkets, with the race to the bottom it requires. Continental supermarkets exist in the same space as produce market halls and dedicated bakeries, patisseries, chocolatiers etc so they don't stoop as low. What's "artisan" in the UK is staple food in France or Germany or Italy.
The difference in the use of plastic wrapping is very noticeable also, in Europe you weigh or count your loose fruit and veg in the UK it's pre-packaged in plastic.

Yeah, the plastic wrapped everything is not a good thing Ireland has imported from the UK. I am always shocked at the amount of plastic wrapping I generate grocery shopping in Ireland compared to when I am in France or Germany.

BonnieSituation · 10-01-2021 7:01pm

embraer170 wrote: »

Yeah, the plastic wrapped everything is not a good thing Ireland has imported from the UK. I am always shocked at the amount of plastic wrapping I generate grocery shopping in Ireland compared to when I am in France or Germany.

We really were getting out of it there for a bit and then Covid ruined that.

breezy1985 · 10-01-2021 7:37pm

embraer170 wrote: »

Yeah, the plastic wrapped everything is not a good thing Ireland has imported from the UK. I am always shocked at the amount of plastic wrapping I generate grocery shopping in Ireland compared to when I am in France or Germany.

Interestingly one of the best for fresh food (and really good cheese) and eco wrapping was Morrison's which would be seen as very British and also looked down upon by the wealthy like Iceland but was of way better quality. Tesco and Sainsburys can rot in hell as far as I am concerned

Waitrose are similar but you pay a premium for it. London is nuts for how you can tell the demographics of an area just by looking at a map of its supermarket chains.

Ide be all for some Carrefour and Corte Ingles in Ireland

strandroad · 10-01-2021 7:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Our fruit is imported immature and usually will rot from the inside before it ripens. This is particularly true of melons and pears.

Hopefully, after this settles down we will end up with European standards rather than those that the UK accepts, which are all based on price before quality.

I would love to hear from someone in the know whether importing directly from EU growers can give us better choice in produce. I mean if you check the label on the horrible watery tomatoes in a plastic box they are often grown in Spain; but even supermarket tomatoes in actual Spain are completely different quality, and still cheaper. If the chain can be shortened by dropping the entire stage of UK redistribution centre from it, can we have better fruit and veg?

strandroad · 10-01-2021 7:46pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We really were getting out of it there for a bit and then Covid ruined that.

It depends on the supermarket too. I shop in Lidl, Tesco and Dunnes: in all of them bakery goods are now 100% plastic wrapped, but my Lidl kept their high rates of loose fruit and veg they worked up to before Covid, whereas Tesco and Dunnes produce aisles are almost completely plastic. Lidl's aisle looks like an open air market in comparison.
There is still consumer choice to be made, I certainly can't bring myself to buy anything fresh in Tesco or Dunnes now.

lawred2 · 10-01-2021 7:58pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Interestingly one of the best for fresh food (and really good cheese) and eco wrapping was Morrison's which would be seen as very British and also looked down upon by the wealthy like Iceland but was of way better quality. Tesco and Sainsburys can rot in hell as far as I am concerned

Waitrose are similar but you pay a premium for it. London is nuts for how you can tell the demographics of an area just by looking at a map of its supermarket chains.

Ide be all for some Carrefour and Corte Ingles in Ireland

ah jaysus wud ya ger oot a dat

Sam Russell · 10-01-2021 8:08pm

strandroad wrote: »

It depends on the supermarket too. I shop in Lidl, Tesco and Dunnes: in all of them bakery goods are now 100% plastic wrapped, but my Lidl kept their high rates of loose fruit and veg they worked up to before Covid, whereas Tesco and Dunnes produce aisles are almost completely plastic. Lidl's aisle looks like an open air market in comparison.
There is still consumer choice to be made, I certainly can't bring myself to buy anything fresh in Tesco or Dunnes now.

I am not sure if the problem is the produce is routed through the UK or if it is just the processes used are copied from the UK.

The UK always tended towards a low cost food model - never mind the quality. Then they adopted the race to the bottom, and below cost selling. Then the 'screw the producer model' using high purchasing power to reduce the price and tie the producer in to unprofitable contracts, but if the market changes, the producer is hung out to dry.

I would hope we can move away from this model. It is a race to the bottom where producers and consumers lose, and possibly the supermarkets do as well - but they are well insulated so will still exploit the market to their own advantage.

Eric Cartman · 10-01-2021 8:14pm

completedit wrote: »

Hopefully we can source some decent tomatoes in this post Brexit reality.

if I never saw another South American fruit routed through the UK again it would be a win for me.

Eastern European tomatoes are twice as juicy and flavourful as the muck we've been getting.

breezy1985 · 10-01-2021 8:27pm

strandroad wrote: »

It depends on the supermarket too. I shop in Lidl, Tesco and Dunnes: in all of them bakery goods are now 100% plastic wrapped, but my Lidl kept their high rates of loose fruit and veg they worked up to before Covid, whereas Tesco and Dunnes produce aisles are almost completely plastic. Lidl's aisle looks like an open air market in comparison.
There is still consumer choice to be made, I certainly can't bring myself to buy anything fresh in Tesco or Dunnes now.

Any Dunne's I have been to still has the usual section of unwrapped fruit and veg I haven't seen any difference to before Covid.
One thing I have loved since moving home is I can trust that Dunne's carrots won't rot after a day like UK supermarket veg
I

Kiwi John · 11-01-2021 6:38pm

Anyone know how Argos are getting on as all there stock is trucked over directly from uk distribution centres.

Hurrache · 11-01-2021 6:43pm

I just had a look thinking it shouldn't be affected too much as it's non food produce, but everything I checked tells me that Store Reservation is not available, which makes sense as their stores are closed, but the Buy or Reserve to go through to Home Delivery is not working.

completedit · 11-01-2021 7:22pm

How much will our isolated location affect us? Is there any conceivable way that there will be more impetus placed for investment to accelerate crossings from the island to France and Spain? Or are we restricted because of distance, ocean currents and our population size?
I also wonder will we start to feel quite cut off from Europe? London was a nice bridge for us and I assume was used by Ida as a selling point when attracting investment. Now we find ourselves detached from London and cities like Paris and Frankfurt will become ever more prominent and important. I'd imagine cities close to them may benefit in the decades ahead. We will have to work to ensure that we don't find ourselves cut adrift from the EU idealogically and economically.

Gerry T · 11-01-2021 7:27pm

completedit wrote: »

How much will our isolated location affect us? Is there any conceivable way that there will be more impetus placed for investment to accelerate crossings from the island to France and Spain? Or are we restricted because of distance, ocean currents and our population size?
I also wonder will we start to feel quite cut off from Europe? London was a nice bridge for us and I assume was used by Ida as a selling point when attracting investment. Now we find ourselves detached from London and cities like Paris and Frankfurt will become ever more prominent and important. I'd imagine cities close to them may benefit in the decades ahead.

The opposite I would have thought. The UK was a barrier or block standing in the way of us and the EU. With so many new direct sailings people may start to consider driving trips direct to the mainland. We will also be forging direct business and household purchasing direct.

It will be a great opportunity when we get back to normal !

Hurrache · 11-01-2021 7:50pm

We're not that isolated, there's quite a few new shipping routes directly to Europe now.

breezy1985 · 11-01-2021 7:54pm

Hurrache wrote: »

We're not that isolated, there's quite a few new shipping routes directly to Europe now.

Could we maybe drill a hole into the side of the channel tunnel and get the Eurostar into Waterford

Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris, Tramore

Peregrinus · 12-01-2021 1:58am

Hurrache wrote: »

We're not that isolated, there's quite a few new shipping routes directly to Europe now.

There are. But they are slower and more expensive that the landbridge route used to be. And there's a large category of traded goods — fresh produce; low margin goods — for which this is going to present a significant barrier.

Since the single market was created, it has always been the case that there have been no legal, regulator, tax or other obstacles to establishing and using direct see routes between Ireland and the mainland. Traders and shipppers had a free and unconstrained choice between the direct sea route and the landbridge route. And, by and large, they tended to prefer the landbridge route, for reasons of cost and/or speed. If there's no longer a level playing field — if they are constrained to use the direct route because the landbridge is impeded by non-tariff barriers —then they'll use the direct route where they can, but it will be suboptimal and will involves costs and delays that, ultimately, will negatively affect trade between Ireland and the mainland. There's no way around this. We can adopt strategies to partly mitigate it, but we can't magic it away.

Yyhhuuu · 12-01-2021 1:59am

I heard the are lots of empty shelves at M&S. Is this a country of Origin issue? Do you think they will pull out of ROI market as a result of Brexit?

Peregrinus · 12-01-2021 2:26am

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

I heard the are lots of empty shelves at M&S. Is this a country of Origin issue? Do you think they will pull out of ROI market as a result of Brexit?

Only if they are going to pull out of NI as well; the barriers to serving both markets out of GB are the same.

Datacore · 12-01-2021 4:22am

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

I heard the are lots of empty shelves at M&S. Is this a country of Origin issue? Do you think they will pull out of ROI market as a result of Brexit?

If they pull out of Ireland, France and the Czech Republic it really says a lot more about M&S than anything else, particularly if other chains have managed to figure out how to work around this. It's not like they'd no notice.

Peregrinus · 12-01-2021 5:19am

M&S have a very strong commitment to supervision of their supply chain, for quality and standards assurance, and they stick to this even it if causes them problems. For a while the M&S in Grafton Street in Dublin would run out of fresh milk from time to time, because all their milk was imported from GB and, when seas were high, supplies would be delayed. Although Ireland had then, as it had now, one of the most productive dairy industries in the world, given the relatively high cost of M&S's engagement with its supply chains, it didn't make sense to set up a separate Irish supply chain for dairy produce for (what was then) just couple of stores.

I think that problem has been solved now; the larger Irish operation makes it economic to set up some Irish supply chains. But of course in the past it was only a problem for very perishable goods (like fresh milk); now, it's going to be a problem for the whole range that M&S carries.

It may be that M&S will sell its Irish stores, and pull out of Ireland. Or that it will discontinue the grocery side of the business, and concentrate on clothes retailing. I think it remains to be seen how things will pan out and what ameliorisations of the benefits of Brexit the UK is willing to submit to.

Datacore · 12-01-2021 7:33am

M&S' overseas expansions usually end in them retreating back to the comfort of England. They've never really travelled well or been able to localise at all.

Have a look a the history of their European expansions. It's invariably : open with much hype, misread the market and end up closing again.

They strike me as a very conservative and inflexible company that tends to suffer a lot from inertia and one that might very well not survive.

They've been trading at an £87.6m loss in the 6 months up to September. Most of that's due to the pandemic.

However, if you look at them they've struggled with things like going online in a big way when they should have been years ago. They're online now, but they should have been a much bigger and earlier presence than they are. Their groceries product was perfect for online, yet they managed to let that market go to Ocado and are now delivered by them as a niche product.

They're an odd company at the best of times and seem to be surviving on 'national treasure' status in many respects.

Inability to stock local milk in Ireland isn't an exemplar of quality control. Rather, it's dire inflexibility, extreme centralisation and willingness to let a shelf go unstocked rather than let local management have any oversight over anything.

Of all the UK retailers, they seem to be the one that, despite years' of notice, have been totally unable to adjust to a very well flagged change of regulatory environment.

It's unfortunate.

Hurrache · 12-01-2021 10:34am

M&S will be no loss to the country. Even though some of their foods are pretty decent, they contribute little to the wider Irish economy outside of employees and rent. I never liked the way some people exclusively shopped there for their groceries.

lawred2 · 12-01-2021 10:41am

Hurrache wrote: »

M&S will be no loss to the country. Even though some of their foods are pretty decent, they contribute little to the wider Irish economy outside of employees and rent. I never liked the way some people exclusively shopped there for their groceries.

I wouldn't miss them - massively overpriced stuff full of sugar and fat.

And I don't mind origin symbols on food... can often be a sign of quality and authenticity. Certain foods associated with certain regions etc. But M&S takes it way too far. Union Jacks on everything.

I noticed over the Christmas; we had an M&S onion relish - Union Jack on it. Just took a quick look at the ingredients list

First item was 'British Onions'

Absurd.

An Ciarraioch · 12-01-2021 2:51pm

Irish Ferries have diverted the WB Yeats from Holyhead to Cherbourg, two months earlier than expected:

https://twitter.com/paulcolgan/status/1348985739644694530

Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

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