Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

L1011 · 08-01-2021 9:11pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Missed this yesterday, but Cork-Zeebrugge just launched its service, which should ease the pressure on Rosslare:

https://twitter.com/PortofCork/status/1347136361107750914

It launched in either 2019 or 2020; this is just an additional sailing.

Unaccompanied con-ro (containers and moving vehicles) means that its not targeting much of the same business as Rosslare.

Rosslare is a ro-ro (moving vehicles only) port and the traditional traffic was accompanied - driver travels with truck.

I don't think any ports other than Dublin, Rosslare and Cork have linkspans for ro-ro - well, Dun Laoghaire did but I think its gone and we're not going back to bringing port traffic in to the town centre.

Waterford Port said they'd build one if the landbridge became unattractive - now's your time lads!

Podge_irl · 08-01-2021 9:23pm

A lot of customs duties would be VAT as that is levied where the product is consumed. However there is an EU-wide VAT scheme. They are not tariffs.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 9:31pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

A lot of customs duties would be VAT as that is levied where the product is consumed. However there is an EU-wide VAT scheme. They are not tariffs.

Here be dragons and all that (+ now going far away from Brexit), but I think VAT is an entirely separate tax. Like Customs it is largely defined at the EU level, but really nothing to do with the Customs duty/tariffs. There is VAT on imports to the EU (so Irish VAT on the stuff coming from UK for us).

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/imports/when-is-vat-payable-on-importation.aspx

Podge_irl · 08-01-2021 9:59pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Here be dragons and all that (+ now going far away from Brexit), but I think VAT is an entirely separate tax. Like Customs it is largely defined at the EU level, but really nothing to do with the Customs duty/tariffs. There is VAT on imports to the EU (so Irish VAT on the stuff coming from UK for us).

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/imports/when-is-vat-payable-on-importation.aspx

Fair enough, I'm incredibly far from an expert. But I think what most people end up calling customs duty will in fact just be an incorrect name for VAT. That's certainly what I end up paying every time I import things into Switzerland. People end up calling everything paid to import as customs just cause of poor nomenclature.

paul71 · 08-01-2021 10:06pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Here be dragons and all that (+ now going far away from Brexit), but I think VAT is an entirely separate tax. Like Customs it is largely defined at the EU level, but really nothing to do with the Customs duty/tariffs. There is VAT on imports to the EU (so Irish VAT on the stuff coming from UK for us).

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/imports/when-is-vat-payable-on-importation.aspx

Correct, if you are importing something from the uk you "potentially" could be paying 1. VAT 2. A tariff 3. Excise duty 4. An administration fee if you are using an agent

What you pay will depend on the type of goods and its origin.

If you are a VAT registered entity you can reclaim the VAT element on your VAT return, the other 3 items are cost of purchase and cannot be reclaimed.

(Sorry to the Mods if the posts belong in the other thread)

Ogham · 08-01-2021 10:07pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough, I'm incredibly far from an expert. But I think what most people end up calling customs duty will in fact just be an incorrect name for VAT. That's certainly what I end up paying every time I import things into Switzerland. People end up calling everything paid to import as customs just cause of poor nomenclature.

THis might help (sorry if it's already been posted)
https://www.moneyguideireland.com/irish-customs-duty-on-uk-online-purchases.html

embraer170 · 08-01-2021 10:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

It launched in either 2019 or 2020; this is just an additional sailing.

Unaccompanied con-ro (containers and moving vehicles) means that its not targeting much of the same business as Rosslare.

Rosslare is a ro-ro (moving vehicles only) port and the traditional traffic was accompanied - driver travels with truck.

I don't think any ports other than Dublin, Rosslare and Cork have linkspans for ro-ro - well, Dun Laoghaire did but I think its gone and we're not going back to bringing port traffic in to the town centre.

Waterford Port said they'd build one if the landbridge became unattractive - now's your time lads!

I would say the immigration/customs infrastructure for ro-ro is probably more of a barrier than a linkspan.

BonnieSituation · 08-01-2021 10:18pm

looksee wrote: »

Leave.eu may have moved their registered address to Waterford but they haven't changed that information on their webpage. Possibly wisely.

Meanwhile 2 out of 2 orders that I thought I was ordering stuff from Ireland and it turns out its coming from a distribution centre / premises in the UK. And in both cases was dismally delayed, with a lack of communication from either firm. How long before Irish suppliers are obliged to specify that goods are in fact being ordered/shipped from the UK when they advertise stuff for sale here?

yagan wrote: »

That's really frustrating. I stopping ordering stuff from the UK back in November but have been looking at similar stuff advertised an .ie site, but now you've made me double check.

Happened me with an order with Screwfix.ie before Christmas. I had assumed it was coming from an Irish centre until the shipping ID was sent to me. No indication at any point that it would be fulfilled in the West Midlands.

Definitely will be more careful going forward.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 10:42pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough, I'm incredibly far from an expert.

As said, nor I. It gets into the weeds of taxation and customs bureaucracy no one really wants to (or should have to) consider unless they need to for their job. Suppose thanks to Brexit a lot more people will be exposed to it whether they like it or not! Maybe Brexit has an educational/self improvement dividend I hadn't appreciated!

Imreoir2 · 08-01-2021 10:52pm

embraer170 wrote: »

I would say the immigratio/customs infrastructure for ro-ro is probably more of a barrier than a linkspan.

Plenty of empty space around Waterford port, so no restrictions on new infrastructure if needed.

RobAMerc · 08-01-2021 10:56pm

got this today - for some reason I thought wiggle had a warehouse in the North when I ordered this. first time I read it, I read it that wiggle were putting the blame squarely on the irish customs ...

I suppose I can expect VAT too - although I am sure their site handled it

Good afternoon,

We're emailing with some bad news, unfortunately our courier, Fastway, are reporting delays in processing trailers into Ireland. Irish customs are reporting delays due the additional data required since Brexit and as a result put a hold on processing freight into the Republic of Ireland.

 

A backlog had built up so Irish customs decided to relax the checks slightly to allow more freight through the border. Fastway will work through the weekend to try and catch up and we expect your order to be with you next week.

You can track your order using the link that was sent to you in your confirmation email.

 

We hope you accept our apology and continue to use Wiggle in the future.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2021 11:00pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

got this today - for some reason I thought wiggle had a warehouse in the North when I ordered this. first time I read it, I read it that wiggle were putting the blame squarely on the irish customs ...

I suppose I can expect VAT too - although I am sure their site handled it

Their site can't handle it. Its charged on import.

I have ordered from Wiggle to Switz. They sell ex-VAT and customs will charge you the VAT to get your package, along with a tasty fee.

breezy1985 · 08-01-2021 11:02pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Their site can't handle it. Its charged on import.

I have ordered from Wiggle to Switz. They sell ex-VAT and customs will charge you the VAT to get your package, along with a tasty fee.

How do customs charge you?
Do you have to declare it or do they send you a bill

L1011 · 08-01-2021 11:11pm

embraer170 wrote: »

I would say the immigratio/customs infrastructure for ro-ro is probably more of a barrier than a linkspan.

Waterford will have the customs setup already, its an active container port.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2021 11:14pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

How do customs charge you?
Do you have to declare it or do they send you a bill

The package goes through customs to enter the country. DHL or the postal service arrive at your door and won't give it to you til you pay the fee.

An Ciarraioch · 09-01-2021 3:25pm

Already have confirmed freight stats for the first week of 2021 from the Irish Times - from 197 direct continental freight units for the same period last year, the 2021 figure rose almost sixfold to 1,148 units, while freight from Fishguard has halved:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/surge-in-freight-traffic-on-direct-ferry-routes-to-europe-1.4453585

fly_agaric · 09-01-2021 3:59pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Already have confirmed freight stats for the first week of 2021 from the Irish Times - from 197 direct continental freight units for the same period last year, the 2021 figure rose almost sixfold to 1,148 units, while freight from Fishguard has halved:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/surge-in-freight-traffic-on-direct-ferry-routes-to-europe-1.4453585

The quotes annoy me somewhat.

Industry groups have called for a further relaxation of Revenue’s border control procedures and criticised its new three-tier customs IT system with Eugene Drennan, president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, describing the procedures as “too cumbersome and too slow”.

I'd say Ireland will have to do these checks & follow proper EU Customs procedures on goods from UK if we oursleves wish to remain (edit: de facto) in the Single Market and not start to see checks on + barriers to our own goods flows outward popping up later on (because other member states don't trust us on this). We might get some leeway for a while this year but it won't be lasting forever. They knew well that UK intended to exit the Customs Union & Single Market since at least 2018 being charitable & have been warned repeatedly on it so

You can't make Customs easy & fast & seamless (or "invisible" if you like?) really if it is to actually do its job properly. That was the very reason the govt. here fought so hard about NI border situation being recognised during the withdrawal negotiations.

edit: Other than that seems like positive news about changes in trade patterns to get around Brexit obstacles, despite disruption. Suppose it is still very early days for all of this.

Sam Russell · 09-01-2021 4:56pm

We are just one week into this - one week, with 51 weeks more just for this year, and then all of next year.

The market will shift so that importing/exporting from/to the EU will be seamless, and importing from the UK will be avoided as much as possible. We will see EU brands in our shops - many of which the makers of the UK ones.

For example, Lever Bros and Proctor and Gamble make products sold all over the EU, so we should end up with those products here, not the ones marketed in the UK.

L1011 · 09-01-2021 7:57pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

For example, Lever Bros and Proctor and Gamble make products sold all over the EU, so we should end up with those products here, not the ones marketed in the UK.

Going to be some brand name recognition problems when (its not if, anymore) that happens. We also won't be able to use the UK ads then.

Sam Russell · 09-01-2021 8:07pm

L1011 wrote: »

Going to be some brand name recognition problems when (its not if, anymore) that happens. We also won't be able to use the UK ads then.

Not necessarily - they do a run of Irish packaging in between the French and Italian ones.

It is just sorting the supply chains out - they could backfill the beef and cheese trucks.

embraer170 · 09-01-2021 9:13pm

Producers run specific labels for other relatively small markers such as Estonia, Finland etc (or bundled with neighbours). Not a huge effort to do it for Ireland.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not necessarily - they do a run of Irish packaging in between the French and Italian ones.

It is just sorting the supply chains out - they could backfill the beef and cheese trucks.

Very good point about the backfill. It will replace the loads they used to pick up in the UK on the way back.

View · 09-01-2021 9:21pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

The quotes annoy me somewhat.

I'd say Ireland will have to do these checks & follow proper EU Customs procedures on goods from UK if we oursleves wish to remain (edit: de facto) in the Single Market and not start to see checks on + barriers to our own goods flows outward popping up later on (because other member states don't trust us on this). We might get some leeway for a while this year but it won't be lasting forever. They knew well that UK intended to exit the Customs Union & Single Market since at least 2018 being charitable & have been warned repeatedly on it so

You can't make Customs easy & fast & seamless (or "invisible" if you like?) really if it is to actually do its job properly. That was the very reason the govt. here fought so hard about NI border situation being recognised during the withdrawal negotiations.

edit: Other than that seems like positive news about changes in trade patterns to get around Brexit obstacles, despite disruption. Suppose it is still very early days for all of this.

Absolutely correct and were we stupid enough to waive goods through without checking them in full, we’d face court cases in the CJEU for breaching EU customs rules and WTO cases as every other country in the world complained about us discriminating against their goods and in favour of British ones.

Needless to say, the individuals making the calls above won’t be putting their hands in their pockets to pay the fines we’d end up with after those court cases.

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2021 4:01am

Yeah it's an adjustment period. We've been consuming too much from the UK for too long because of laziness alone. We will start to orientate away from the UK towards the EU and the nature of everyday products we consume will change as a result. Nothing about this is surprising, and it was the UK's decision so up to them really.

rock22 · 10-01-2021 11:49am

I already turn to .de or .fr websites when I can.
But I can't change how my weekly shopping in the supermarket is distributed. And it seems that the supermarkets are continuing to import from the UK rather than switch to European suppliers. i am surprised to see Lidl and Aldo still prefer UK suppliers, considering that they originally had supply from continental Europe when they first et up here.

Am i just being impatient or are we going to end up a a'third country' to a 'third country'(UK) outside of the EU and paying way higher or will we enjoy the benefits of being in the single market.

Sam Russell · 10-01-2021 12:06pm

rock22 wrote: »

I already turn to .de or .fr websites when I can.
But I can't change how my weekly shopping in the supermarket is distributed. And it seems that the supermarkets are continuing to import from the UK rather than switch to European suppliers. i am surprised to see Lidl and Aldo still prefer UK suppliers, considering that they originally had supply from continental Europe when they first et up here.

Am i just being impatient or are we going to end up a a'third country' to a 'third country'(UK) outside of the EU and paying way higher or will we enjoy the benefits of being in the single market.

We have two Irish supermarkets - Dunnes and Musgraves (Supervalu etc.) and two German supermarkets (Aldi and Lidl) and one UK supermarket (Tesco). Between the five of them they control over 89% of the market. Of that, Tesco have just over 21%.

I think it would be trivial for Aldi and Lidl to shift suppliers to EU suppliers - they probably have own brands already that are EU suppliers.

So will Dunnes and Musgraves move to the EU suppliers? I think that they will but it will take time - for own brand they will need to identify quality suppliers and get them on stream with Irish requirements. For brands, they need to identify ones that might fly here, but that is up to the brands themselves. Most UK brands are available , with slight name modifications, in European supermarkets.

The other possibility is EU supermarkets moving in here, just as Lidl and Aldi did.

We can just wait and see. We can help by only buying Irish products where we can, and be careful to pursue value where we see it.

beggars_bush · 10-01-2021 1:51pm

Would foodstuffs and other common household items brought in from the continent be cheaper than the equivalent uk products?

Sam Russell · 10-01-2021 2:06pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Would foodstuffs and other common household items brought in from the continent be cheaper than the equivalent uk products?

Well, if my memory serves me right, Aldi and Lidl brought own brands of cleaning products here that were substantially cheaper than the ones on sale here at the time by the supermarkets based here at the time.

Now, it is (was) much easier for supermarkets with large presence in in both UK and Ireland to place bulk orders for both markets as the labels could be the same, and distribution was easy. Price was not an issue, as advertising on UK channels was available here, standards were the same, and basically it was one market.

Well, that has now changed, but it will take time for distribution to work out solutions, balancing price, availability, and acceptability. Some people love Marmite, but some hate it, but no-one is ambivalent about it. (So they say).

Before we joined the EEC, you had to buy your olive oil in the Chemist's (pharmacy) in little bottles as the shops (pre-supermarkets) did not stock it. It certainly was not intended to be used as a dressing on salads.

How tastes have changed, and they will change again.

peter kern · 10-01-2021 2:22pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Would foodstuffs and other common household items brought in from the continent be cheaper than the equivalent uk products?

i would guess the main factor here is the pound and at 1.10 i would say mostly no. and i guess the pound value was one of the main reason aldi and lidl changed. form more german products to uk. when they entered ireland the pound was higher more like in the 1.30 s

Sam Russell · 10-01-2021 3:26pm

peter kern wrote: »

i would guess the main factor here is the pound and at 1.10 i would say mostly no. and i guess the pound value was one of the main reason aldi and lidl changed. form more german products to uk. when they entered ireland the pound was higher more like in the 1.30 s

Some of that, but I think they have introduced many UK big brands into their stores in response to Irish demands.

They are both German discount stores selling own brands at discount prices. Consequently they have limited choice, but low prices. This allows them to have small outlets with limited no of line items with few staff, and so they can have the shops close to each other. All stores are more or less identical in size, stock and layout.

Recently they have begun to deviate from the model.

prawnsambo · 10-01-2021 3:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

So will Dunnes and Musgraves move to the EU suppliers? I think that they will but it will take time - for own brand they will need to identify quality suppliers and get them on stream with Irish requirements. For brands, they need to identify ones that might fly here, but that is up to the brands themselves. Most UK brands are available , with slight name modifications, in European supermarkets.

I was told (over two years ago) by people I know in Musgraves that they had already started shifting supplies to mainland Europe because of Brexit. Not sure how advanced that is at this stage, but you'd have to think that they'd be well sorted by now.

Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

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