Yet another mass shooting

Cookie_Monster · 09-11-2018 3:21am

Manic Moran wrote: »

As opposed to what, a parliamentary system like the UK where occasionally the party which receives fewer votes ends up with the Prime Minister?.

As opposed to a functional system like any number of other 1st world countries; Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Aus, NZ, Holland, Italy, Switzerland etc etc etc. No need to specifically pick the only other one that is also very broken.

Guy:Incognito · 09-11-2018 3:37am

fritzelly wrote: »

That is pretty much a weekly event (most accidental).
When its so ingrained into your psyche that having loaded guns is the norm sure why the hell would you have them locked up

Ingrained how? Even the nra on their site say to keep guns unloaded and secured etc.

As with anything you will always have stupid and irresponsible people that will leave dangerous things lying around. No matter how much you tell them not to.

Checkmate19 · 09-11-2018 3:56am

This just will continue. To toxic for either party to tackle it. NRA have the politicians in their pockets. I don't think it matter's which party is in gun control won't happen. The minute you even consider making even slight changes the nra are all over it. After Sandy Hook there was some sort of call for banning or certain type of guns. However i think most of this went by the way side. I think there could be a mass shooting every day in the us and nothing would happen. Very sad for the victims etc. but i won't be long till the next mass shooting.

Manic Moran · 09-11-2018 4:28am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As opposed to a functional system like any number of other 1st world countries; Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Aus, NZ, Holland, Italy, Switzerland etc etc etc. No need to specifically pick the only other one that is also very broken.

It is theoretically possible for such a result to happen in Ireland, though I presume it has not happened yet. It is a feature inherent with any system which elects its government by regional representation, be they States or constituencies. After all, there is nothing which says that more people have to vote for whoever ends up becoming the Taoiseach, or that the Taoiseach's party must have received the most votes. They just need to win more constituencies.

Peregrinus · 09-11-2018 4:50am

Manic Moran wrote: »

It is theoretically possible for such a result to happen in Ireland, though I presume it has not happened yet. It is a feature inherent with any system which elects its government by regional representation, be they States or constituencies. After all, there is nothing which says that more people have to vote for whoever ends up becoming the Taoiseach, or that the Taoiseach's party must have received the most votes. They just need to win more constituencies.

Yes, but in a proportional system that weight votes equally it's very difficult to win more constituencies without winning more of the vote.

It used to happen fairly regularly that Fianna Fail would end up with more than 50% of the seats on less than 50% of the vote. This was the outcome, basically, of gerrymandering - over-representation of rural voters, and careful decisions about where to put three-seat constituencies, and where to put four-seat constituencies.

Over-representation of rural voters was ruled to be unconstitutional in the 1960s, and in the late 1970s the business of drawing up constituencies was taken out of the hands of ministers and given to an independent commission, since when no majority government has ever taken power without securing a majority of the vote. So, yeah, this technology exists.

It's a bit of a side-issue in this thread, however. The US has the electoral college for a reason. By and large, it has served the country well - it is an enduring and successful democracy. While you could marshal interesting arguments for and against retaining the system, I seriously doubt that arguments about the implications for gun control would carry much weight one way or the other. Americans don't have the gun control laws they do, and the attitudes to and beliefs about guns that they have, because of the electoral system, and changing the electoral system would not change much in this regard.

pleas advice · 09-11-2018 5:30am

just an aside, but i always wondered why all the electoral votes go to to the winner in each state, even if its 50.1 to 49.9?
Why aren't split electoral votes more common? (although, if you can't make the 55 votes in California count, would you have a better chance with 34 (62%) of them..?)

https://www.270towin.com/content/split-electoral-votes-maine-and-nebraska/

Manic Moran · 09-11-2018 6:00am

pleas advice wrote: »

just an aside, but i always wondered why all the electoral votes go to to the winner in each state, even if its 50.1 to 49.9?
Why aren't split electoral votes more common? (although, if you can't make the 55 votes in California count, would you have a better chance with 34 (62%) of them..?)

https://www.270towin.com/content/split-electoral-votes-maine-and-nebraska/

The reason is partially institutional inertia, and partially partisan politics.

Way back in the day, when a State decided on something, the State decided it. Imagine the crew of a ship voting which way to sail. They couldn’t split the ship, so everyone went that way whether they liked it or not. The nation was created with “the United States” being a plural, not the singular as we use it today, and the idea of a State providing a split decision was a bit outside the point. That’s not to say that the Maine/Nebraska method was unheard of, Massachusetts used it for a few elections in the early 19th Century.

These days, there is no incentive for it, really. Can you imagine the leadership in California (Heavily Democrat), in a State which is reliably Democrat, waking up one day and saying “in the interests of fairness, we are going to split out State votes, so instead of our providing 55 EC votes to our Democratic candidate for a president, we’ll only give 30 to them, and let the Republicans take the other 25”? No way it’s going to happen, they’d be ostracized from the Democratic Party. (And, obviously, the reverse is true for the reliably Republican States).

What tripped the trigger for Maine was a surprisingly hard-fought election in 1968 between three candidates, and Maine’s fractured vote all went to Nixon. After that, Maine decided to split.

That said, from 1972 to today, the two States which allow split votes have each split only once each. Maine in 2016 with a vote for Trump, and Obama got a Nebraska one in 2008. Since both States work on the basis of “congressional districts plus bonus”, it’s actually quite possible for the “loser”of the State’s popular vote to win the majority of the EC votes, but certainly not easily, it’s not simply a proportionate equivalency.

Graces7 · 09-11-2018 7:55am

fritzelly wrote: »

This is why everyone in the US should be armed when going out so people like this can be taken out immediately after they kill the first person even before if they are showing signs of mental illness
I mean every week there is another mass shooting so chances are you would be in a position to have to do this.
Hell not even just going out, students, teachers, going shopping, babies - should all be armed. The only way to stop this kind of thing happening.

wrong. that is why things are as they are. everyone is armed already. and the attackers know that.

Will I Am Not · 09-11-2018 8:28am

Graces7 wrote: »

wrong. that is why things are as they are. everyone is armed already. and the attackers know that.

I think... just maybe... there was a bit of sarcasm in there.

murpho999 · 09-11-2018 10:07am

sdanseo wrote: »

Was about 30km from there two weeks ago. Scary thought.

Shooter used an extended magazine, ironically in the only US state that outlaws extended magazines.

My thoughts regarding how to tackle the gun control issue as quite elequently inferred by CJ Cregg:

Sorry but how is being 30km away from a place in a completely different time a scary thought?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 09-11-2018 10:11am

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I agree the voting landscape and system in America is borderline undemocratic at this stage. It is pretty difficult to defend a system in a so called democracy where the winner of the popular vote is the loser. America needs to get rid of the electoral college system and they'll be better for it.

That being said, voting democrats into power is not impossible and those who voted for republicans (especially in the swing states) did so knowing that gun control laws won't change, whether this was a conscious decision in their choice of candidate, or just apathy.

The way to change the electoral college has the same limitations as the electoral college itself. A constitutional change needs the majority of States to agree.

RocketRaccoon · 09-11-2018 10:16am

sdanseo wrote: »

Was about 30km from there two weeks ago. Scary thought.

Shooter used an extended magazine, ironically in the only US state that outlaws extended magazines.

I was in New York at the world trade centre last year, I could have died.

Theboinkmaster · 09-11-2018 10:48am

SimonTemplar wrote: »

By the way, I don't think this got much attention here but I saw the headline when I was looking at CNN for the midterms.

An 11 year old boy shot his grandmother in the head after she asked him to clean his room. He then shot himself.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/05/us/arizona-boy-11-grandmother-shot/index.html

That is so sad, but how retarded are people that don't keep guns in a safe.....

Hector Savage · 09-11-2018 10:51am

mammajamma wrote: »

Its just the disintegration of the United States picking up pace. Next year they will break the records for this year, and so on.

They're going down unless something drastic changes within their society.

Someone mentioned somewhere that empires typically last about 200 years ,
It's interesting - seems the US as a superpower and society is on it's way out.

Hector Savage · 09-11-2018 10:59am

SimonTemplar wrote: »

By the way, I don't think this got much attention here but I saw the headline when I was looking at CNN for the midterms.

An 11 year old boy shot his grandmother in the head after she asked him to clean his room. He then shot himself.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/05/us/arizona-boy-11-grandmother-shot/index.html

Jesus!

SexBobomb · 09-11-2018 11:15am

Hector Savage wrote: »

Someone mentioned somewhere that empires typically last about 200 years ,
It's interesting - seems the US as a superpower and society is on it's way out.

I think its on the verge of a massive change over the next 20 years when issues like these and civil unrest reach a breaking point. America is too big to fail, its too involved all over the world.

BattleCorp · 09-11-2018 4:58pm

Checkmate19 wrote: »

This just will continue. To toxic for either party to tackle it. NRA have the politicians in their pockets. I don't think it matter's which party is in gun control won't happen. The minute you even consider making even slight changes the nra are all over it. After Sandy Hook there was some sort of call for banning or certain type of guns. However i think most of this went by the way side. I think there could be a mass shooting every day in the us and nothing would happen. Very sad for the victims etc. but i won't be long till the next mass shooting.

People give the NRA far too much credit. They don't have half as much power as people think.

If the NRA were disbanded, that doesn't mean that Americans would give up their guns. Guns are a big part of their culture.

The majority of Americans don't want the 2nd Amendment removed.

09-11-2018 5:17pm

Just read a survivor of Vegas died in it. Reminds me of a good friend I cut ties with because he defended the exec who said she had no sympathy for victims in Vegas cause they were probably Republican.

orourkeda1977 · 09-11-2018 5:21pm

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Merica

F*ck Yeahhhhhhhhhhh

valoren · 09-11-2018 5:29pm

Sandy Hook was the event horizon for gun control in America.
If the murders of 20 six and seven year old children didn't prompt collective action then there will never be collective action.

Mass shootings are simply a fact of life in the US now.

riclad · 09-11-2018 5:33pm

This is a mental health issue,
maybe all soldiers coming back from iraq, warzones should be tested
every 6 months for pstd .
War is very stressful ,it effects people in different ways .
The register of gun owners needs to be updated , any one on medication or someone who has mental health issues should not be allowed to buy guns or own guns .
It seems there is a mass shooting every 2 to 4 weeks in america,
it has become almost routine.
The rules around buying guns need to be tightened up.
I can think of no reason why people in citys or urban area,s need to
be able to buy machine guns .
Also the rules around gun storage need to be more strict,
teens and children should not have easy acess to guns at home.
All schools should have secure doors , eg no one without id should be able to enter a school.
Maybe students could all use a badge with electronic strip to open door,s .
the only hope i see is as more young people vote ,there is a chance of more politicians who support gun control
getting into office and changing the law.
Random strangers should not be able to walk into a school with a gun.

Omackeral · 09-11-2018 5:38pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Watching the news just now. This is the 307th mass shooting in America this year. No words.

Today I was was looking up something about the Boomtown Rats and their song I Don't Like Mondays, which was inspired by a shooting at Grover Cleveland High School in San Diego. So I looked up said shooting on Wikipedia. First thing I see is Did you mean Grover Cleveland High School (Stockton). Basically two schools with the same name have suffered mass shootings. Ridiculous.

Laois_Man · 09-11-2018 5:54pm

I work for a US company and was reading thru the work environment survey comments last week and saw some in the American offices are concerned about lack of protocol or knowledge of what to do if there is an active shooter onsite. It made me say to myself, my that place is so ****ed up.

When I go over there, they talk about guns and just assume I know all the technical stuff about them and can converse at will - coz they all do

When I tell them I don't have a gun, never had a gun and never even fired one in my life other than firing a few pellets at clay pigeons, they are amazed. "How do you defend yourself" is the standard response.

About that clay pigeon facility outside Clane, they are so careful that every cartridge has to be accounted for before you leave the place. Yet in America you can buy any weapons or ammunition in a pawn shop! Ludicrous!

Other than things to do with "The Troubles", the nearest it ever came to home was Dunblane in 1996. We can't assume it can't happen here. I sometimes drop my son off at school in the mornings and wonder is security a bit too lax and think of Dunblane and that school in Dublin that didn't open one day last month coz some looney kid said on social media one night that he was gonna shoot the place up the next day - Or I remember another 2 dodgy kids also in Dublin about 3 years ago were caught acting dodgy. It's worst nightmare stuff!

Laois_Man · 09-11-2018 5:57pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Today I was was looking up something about the Boomtown Rats and their song I Don't Like Mondays, which was inspired by a shooting at Grover Cleveland High School in San Diego. So I looked up said shooting on Wikipedia. First thing I see is Did you mean Grover Cleveland High School (Stockton). Basically two schools with the same name have suffered mass shootings. Ridiculous.

The shooting at the cinema in Colorado 6 years ago (12 dead) was only 10 miles away from Columbine high school (15 dead)!

ohnonotgmail · 09-11-2018 6:04pm

SexBobomb wrote: »

I think its on the verge of a massive change over the next 20 years when issues like these and civil unrest reach a breaking point. America is too big to fail, its too involved all over the world.

The Romans thought the same thing.

SimonTemplar · 09-11-2018 6:44pm

riclad wrote: »

This is a mental health issue,

One of the very first things Trump did when he got into power was to revoke an Obama-era gun check for people with mental health issues

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

President Donald Trump quietly signed a bill into law Tuesday rolling back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun.
The rule, which was finalized in December, added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database.

Had the rule fully taken effect, the Obama administration predicted it would have added about 75,000 names to that database.

It almost seems too crazy to actually say this but, because Trump revoked this regulation, a person who is deemed mentally incapable of handling their own finances can still purchase a gun :eek:

ToddyDoody · 09-11-2018 8:01pm

You'd think the majority of mass shootings would take place at the likes of the tax office but its always places that have a strong social element to them.

Agricola · 09-11-2018 8:04pm

The root of the gun problem in America is, as with most problems in America, money. They simply have to take bribery of politicians out of the system. If more than half your government is bought and paid for by gun manufacturers, amongst other interests groups who really couldn't give a fúck about society as long as they are making $$$, then you will never be out of trouble.

I just wonder are they too late to change now. Whatever folksy, family values and common good ideals that might have actually existed in the past, they seem like they are long gone now. It really is a dog eat dog society.

wexie · 09-11-2018 8:46pm

SimonTemplar wrote: »

It almost seems too crazy to actually say this but, because Trump revoked this regulation, a person who is deemed mentally incapable of handling their own finances can still purchase a gun :eek:

They tried to get legislation passed that would stop people who are CURRENTLY ON TERRORIST WATCHLISTS from buying guns...

Tried to pass that is....

imme · 09-11-2018 8:57pm

This is none of our business.

I don't know why these news reports get such coverage in Ireland.

The people of America have to deal with this problem, there is nothing Irish people can do about it.

Yet another mass shooting

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