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Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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Comments

  • #1532
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Aegir wrote: »
    the CTA is completely independent of the EU and has already been acknowledged as such. British citizens in Ireland and Irish citizens in the UK will continue to have the same rights as they do today, regardless of how hard or soft Brexit is.

    Unless you have seen something I haven't, neither the UK or the EU has mentioned Visas being required for travel in either jurisdiction.
    In the absence of a withdrawal agreement, the status of UK citizens in an EU country is up to each individual EU country. Some may go with completely visaless travel, some may choose visa waiver programmes, some may require actual visas.

    This is the point. This is why no deal has the potential to be a complete mess.

    You're right that the CTA is indepedent of the EU. And that's also the point. The EU is not a party to the CTA and therefore they have no obligation to recognise it. The WA recognises it.

    For example, a UK citizen living in Ireland may make an application to move to France on the basis that they've been an EU resident for ten years. In the absence of the WA, that right is lost and they have to start from scratch.

    The CTA starts getting complicated if it starts conflicting with EU law, such as competition or employment laws. Because the CTA will lose out.


  • #1533
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    You really seemed to be filled with glee at the prospect of ordinary British people suffering at the hands of Brexit.
    In fairness, whilst I'd rather not see it happen, it is "the will of the people"!
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The government said they would act on the result.
    Did they say exactly how they would act on it?


  • #1534
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    In the absence of a withdrawal agreement, the status of UK citizens in an EU country is up to each individual EU country. Some may go with completely visaless travel, some may choose visa waiver programmes, some may require actual visas.

    you have moved the goalposts there. Status and travel requirements are two different things.

    Travel and visas are covered by the Schengen agreement.
    seamus wrote: »
    you're right that the CTA is indepedent of the EU. And that's also the point. The EU is not a party to the CTA and therefore they have no obligation to recognise it. The WA recognises it.

    whether or not they recognise it is largely irrelevant.
    seamus wrote: »
    For example, a UK citizen living in Ireland may make an application to move to France on the basis that they've been an EU resident for ten years. In the absence of the WA, that right is lost and they have to start from scratch.

    does it? could you provide something to back that up.
    seamus wrote: »
    The CTA starts getting complicated if it starts conflicting with EU law, such as competition or employment laws. Because the CTA will lose out.

    What laws could it possibly conflict with?

    Can you provide an example please.


  • #1535
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    In fairness, whilst I'd rather not see it happen, it is "the will of the people"!

    What's the will of the people though? You've got a nation spoonfed decades of anti-EU rhetoric from the tabloids - it got so bad that the EU commission had to set up a web-page to specifically counter-act their lies - and told by the people running the leave campaign that they would leave the EU - without ever specifying what that entailed in any sort of detail beyond some vague notion of taking back control - and stand strong and free like some unicorn colossus. What form of leaving the EU did people vote for. You could ask twenty people and I'd wager that you'd get twenty different answers.

    There's a big difference though between shrugging your shoulders and saying 'well, they voted for it, let them get on with it' to being happy to imagine the ordinary British person having to go to the fields to pick fruit because they're going hungry in a post-Brexit world.


  • #1536
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,906 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Aegir wrote: »

    As there is a lot of talk about the GFA and Brexit, it needs to be noted that any border poll would have to be handled the same way. A referendum can be held, but it would still be up to the government to draft the necessary legislation and support it through parliament, as it would again be "Advisory".

    No one would ever suggest that a border poll be ignored because the people didn't know what they were doing and parliament knows best.

    The British government is doing it's best to not discuss the GFA. I can guarantee the Brexit supporters in the UK know less about the GFA and the importance of Brexit than the average remainder. It's just not in their interest to discuss it because it weakens their case.

    There was a good documentary which followed Guy verhofstaf through the negotiations. He was taking the NI peace very seriously. He spoke with propel on the ground in the border area, found out what it was like before and what the peace means to them today. Then he spoke to David David about how to maintain the peace and Davis said "we'll deal with any violence if it happens". They were livid about how flippant they UK was being about such a serious issue in THEIR country.

    The GFA is a problem. The idea of electronic border is complete nonsense. It effectively means no border but with a small chance of catching some cross border crimes. That's the price of Brexit.


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  • #1537
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    What's the will of the people though? You've got a nation spoonfed decades of anti-EU rhetoric from the tabloids - it got so bad that the EU commission had to set up a web-page to specifically counter-act their lies - and told by the people running the leave campaign that they would leave the EU - without ever specifying what that entailed in any sort of detail beyond some vague notion of taking back control - and stand strong and free like some unicorn colossus. What form of leaving the EU did people vote for. You could ask twenty people and I'd wager that you'd get twenty different answers.

    There's a big difference though between shrugging your shoulders and saying 'well, they voted for it, let them get on with it' to being happy to imagine the ordinary British person having to go to the fields to pick fruit because they're going hungry in a post-Brexit world.
    Did I say that I was happy?
    Maybe you wouldn't have been as sensitive had I used a smiley face :rolleyes:


  • #1538
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Did I say that I was happy?
    Maybe you wouldn't have been as sensitive had I used a smiley face :rolleyes:

    Jesus, I wasn't saying you were happy about it. How did you get that out of what I said?!?!? :confused: - here's a confused face for your benefit. Your post that I quote said you'd rather not see it happen - I took that to mean you were shrugging your shoulders in relation to it - like most of us here.

    I was referencing declanflynn's comment about people picking fruit.
    After a hard brexit the British will in the fields picking fruit, to stop themselves going hungry

    That dude seems more than happy to see people suffer in the aftermath of Brexit.


  • #1539
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Well, could this 'Best of both worlds' proposal in today's Irish Times be the solution to the Irish aspect of Brexit?

    Let people of Northern Ireland decide their Brexit fate: North could have unique position of having full access to UK and EU markets


  • #1540
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, could this 'Best of both worlds' proposal in today's Irish Times be the solution to the Irish aspect of Brexit?

    Let people of Northern Ireland decide their Brexit fate: North could have unique position of having full access to UK and EU markets

    so no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and no border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK?


  • #1541
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    In fairness, whilst I'd rather not see it happen, it is "the will of the people"!

    What's the will of the people though? You've got a nation spoonfed decades of anti-EU rhetoric from the tabloids - it got so bad that the EU commission had to set up a web-page to specifically counter-act their lies - and told by the people running the leave campaign that they would leave the EU - without ever specifying what that entailed in any sort of detail beyond some vague notion of taking back control - and stand strong and free like some unicorn colossus. What form of leaving the EU did people vote for. You could ask twenty people and I'd wager that you'd get twenty different answers.

    There's a big difference though between shrugging your shoulders and saying 'well, they voted for it, let them get on with it' to being happy to imagine the ordinary British person having to go to the fields to pick fruit because they're going hungry in a post-Brexit world.
    Like the brits always worried about how we were doing "let them eat cake"


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  • #1542
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Well, could this 'Best of both worlds' proposal in today's Irish Times be the solution to the Irish aspect of Brexit?

    Can't really happen without election first.
    Whatever games Boris Johnson might be playing, the anti-EU Conservatives seem to be quite emboldened now. As happens sometimes with extremist movements, give them an inch....
    Things may have gone too far. They may not accept anything apart from a "full English Brexit", hostile policy towards former European allies and cosying up to Trump/US republicans, no matter what might be changed in withdrawal agreement.


  • #1543
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Did I say that I was happy?
    Maybe you wouldn't have been as sensitive had I used a smiley face :rolleyes:

    Jesus, I wasn't saying you were happy about it. How did you get that out of what I said?!?!? :confused: - here's a confused face for your benefit. Your post that I quote said you'd rather not see it happen - I took that to mean you were shrugging your shoulders in relation to it - like most of us here.

    I was referencing declanflynn's comment about people picking fruit.
    After a hard brexit the British will in the fields picking fruit, to stop themselves going hungry

    That dude seems more than happy to see people suffer in the aftermath of Brexit.
    Your correct


  • #1544
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Aegir wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, could this 'Best of both worlds' proposal in today's Irish Times be the solution to the Irish aspect of Brexit?

    Let people of Northern Ireland decide their Brexit fate: North could have unique position of having full access to UK and EU markets

    so no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and no border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK?
    That seems like a great idea but with the likes of arylene , de paffell and co great ideas will not be given the time of day


  • #1545
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Aegir wrote: »
    does it? could you provide something to back that up.
    Here you go.
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_2_uk_citizens_en_final_0.pdf

    Without a Withdrawal Agreement, UK citizens arriving in an EU country by default go into the "all other visas" queue along with people from Australia, India, Brazil and Outer Mongolia.

    That is, unless the EU country has put specific provisions in law for UK citizens.
    What laws could it possibly conflict with?
    I gave an example earlier. Imagine there's a job going in Ireland which an EU and UK citizen both apply for. The UK citizen gets it (for whatever reason), so the EU national takes a case arguing that as an EU citizen he should have priority over 3rd country citizens in job applications.

    That is, that a 3rd country person shouldn't be considered for a role unless the employer can show that there are no sufficiently qualified EU nationals available. And that's a valid argument, because if the EU doesn't recognise the CTA, then the UK citizen is a 3rd country citizen under EU law, which might rule that the job should be awarded to EU citizens first.

    I'm not saying that it's definitely going to happen, but it's a possibility.

    And it's not a possibility that you can rule out, because in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there is no fallback plan.

    We have never been in a situation where Ireland has been in a CTA with a non-EU country.
    declanflynn wrote: »
    That seems like a great idea but with the likes of arylene , de paffell and co great ideas will not be given the time of day
    It was the perfect solution, and a golden ticket on a plate for Northern Ireland. But the DUP torpedoed it because they believed that the EU was trying to drive a wedge between NI and the UK.


  • #1546
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Surely running referendums twice is a good thing, if the first exercise is shown to have been dodgy or corrupt?

    true, which it hasn't , running this a second time would be like niece all over again ' a certain section of the political sphere didn't get the answer they wanted' so around around we go.


  • #1547
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    true, which it hasn't , running this a second time would be like niece all over again ' a certain section of the political sphere didn't get the answer they wanted' so around around we go.

    What did the 52% want?


  • #1548
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    Here you go.
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/factsheet_2_uk_citizens_en_final_0.pdf

    Without a Withdrawal Agreement, UK citizens arriving in an EU country by default go into the "all other visas" queue along with people from Australia, India, Brazil and Outer Mongolia.

    what is an "All other Visas" queue? Do you mean passports, because I have only ever seen two queues at airports, one for EU passport holders and one for "All passports".

    That is why i said Brits will have to join the same queue as Americans do.

    seamus wrote: »
    That is, unless the EU country has put specific provisions in law for UK citizens.
    I gave an example earlier. Imagine there's a job going in Ireland which an EU and UK citizen both apply for. The UK citizen gets it (for whatever reason), so the EU national takes a case arguing that as an EU citizen he should have priority over 3rd country citizens in job applications.

    That is, that a 3rd country person shouldn't be considered for a role unless the employer can show that there are no sufficiently qualified EU nationals available. And that's a valid argument, because if the EU doesn't recognise the CTA, then the UK citizen is a 3rd country citizen under EU law, which might rule that the job should be awarded to EU citizens first.

    I'm not saying that it's definitely going to happen, but it's a possibility.

    you can not discriminate against someone because of their nationality, that is a blatent breach of Irish human rights legislation.
    seamus wrote: »
    And it's not a possibility that you can rule out, because in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there is no fallback plan.

    We have never been in a situation where Ireland has been in a CTA with a non-EU country.

    apart from the fifty years preceding Ireland's entry to the EEC you mean?

    The CTA will not change. It can't. The EU know this and will not make Ireland change it. Doing so would mean the Irish government can no longer hold up its side of the Good Friday Agreement.

    seamus wrote: »
    It was the perfect solution, and a golden ticket on a plate for Northern Ireland. But the DUP torpedoed it because they believed that the EU was trying to drive a wedge between NI and the UK.

    so you see no issue with there being no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and no border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK?

    Can Larne handle the extra goods?


  • #1549
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,962 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    declanflynn wrote: »
    That seems like a great idea but with the likes of arylene , de paffell and co great ideas will not be given the time of day

    This option was already given by the EU, and the main business leaders and Gov agencies in NI said it was great, they were getting a fantastic deal.

    Arlene shot it down, as it treats them different to the rest of the UK, and has a border in the Irish Sea.


  • #1550
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, could this 'Best of both worlds' proposal in today's Irish Times be the solution to the Irish aspect of Brexit?

    Let people of Northern Ireland decide their Brexit fate: North could have unique position of having full access to UK and EU markets

    Behind a paywall for me.

    If it's offering special terms through the ballot it won't be considered because the Scots will seek the same and Scotland is strategically valuable to London/England/Britain. Also the DUP will put it on there enormous long 'no' list.


  • #1551
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,792 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »




    so you see no issue with there being no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and no border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK?

    Can Larne handle the extra goods?

    A hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland creates a physical divide, the removal of which was pivotal to the peace we have and to the GFA.

    A sea border creates an abstract and largely imaginary barrier in people's heads, nothing more.


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  • #1552
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,962 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A sea border creates an abstract and largely imaginary barrier in people's heads, nothing more.

    But we all know Francie that some people carrying a lot of power in NI can't accept this imaginary border.


  • #1553
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,792 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    NIMAN wrote: »
    But we all know Francie that some people carrying a lot of power in NI can't accept this imaginary border.

    Yes, but it is going to come to the point were the one that will have the least ramifications (hurt pride) will be the chosen one. We in the EU are not backing down and even if the UK goes out with No Deal, this deal is the only one in town.

    What we are waiting on is the UK to decide is it going to be easy way or the hard way.


  • #1554
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,962 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Sad thing is, it would be a great deal for NI.
    Everyone agrees with that, probably most Unionists and big business leaders.

    Pity about the DUP though. Holding the rest of us to ransom.


  • #1555
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland creates a physical divide, the removal of which was pivotal to the peace we have and to the GFA.

    I can't help but think the biggest objection to a hard border is because it would prevent all the smuggling that goes on now. All this talk about it undermining the GFA is just bollocks
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A sea border creates an abstract and largely imaginary barrier in people's heads, nothing more.

    the article talks about the best of both worlds, which a sea border isn't, because regulatory alignment would have to be with either the UK, or with the EU.

    If the EU and Ireland insist that it is with them, then that could quite easily be seen as undermining the GFA because
    the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people;


  • #1556
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Aegir wrote: »
    I can't help but think the biggest objection to a hard border is because it would prevent all the smuggling that goes on now. All this talk about it undermining the GFA is just bollocks

    Are Leo and his crowd in on this mental conspiracy too? Maybe they're getting Tesco paracetamol from the north on the cheap and have teamed up with the smugglers?


  • #1557
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    What did the 52% want?

    To leave the EU


  • #1558
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    What kind of Brexit did the 52% vote for?

    One where they leave the EU


  • #1559
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    declanflynn wrote: »
    Brexit isn't my fault

    It is the EU's fault


  • #1560
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    What kind of Brexit did the 52% vote for?

    One where they leave the EU
    Why don't they just leave?


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  • #1561
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,792 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    I can't help but think the biggest objection to a hard border is because it would prevent all the smuggling that goes on now. All this talk about it undermining the GFA is just bollocks

    Nonsense, the path back to conflict was spelled out very clearly by one of the architects of it a week or so ago. Tony Blair's negotiator.

    the article talks about the best of both worlds, which a sea border isn't, because regulatory alignment would have to be with either the UK, or with the EU.

    If the EU and Ireland insist that it is with them, then that could quite easily be seen as undermining the GFA because
    Just like SF do not have a monopoly on what is 'freely exercised and legitimate' neither do the DUP.
    If the UK as a whole (i.e. The UK government) decide the border is to be in the Irish sea, then that decision, (just like the DUP are keen to tell us that the Brexit decision is a UK wide one) is 'freely excercised' and entirely 'legitimate'


This discussion has been closed.
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