Anti-vaxxers

Dohnjoe · 26-09-2019 4:39pm

UK vaccination rates still falling

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/26/drop-in-vaccination-rates-in-england-alarming-experts-warn

"Confidence in the MMR jab appears to have been dropping at least partly in response to social media misinformation and scare stories. The discredited claims of Andrew Wakefield, who in 1998 theorised that the jab was linked to autism, are widely circulated."

Social media platforms need to keep stepping it up to fight against disinformation about this

banie01 · 26-09-2019 9:54pm

Conspiracy Files: Vaccine Wars, on BBC2 at the moment.

The interviews with the Anti-Vaxxers and Wakefield supporters are a window into the mind of a group psychosis.

They are only able to parrot talking points that have already been discredited and show absolutely zero capacity for critical thinking or review of the multitude of evidence that vaccines are in the main and discounted the cases of anaphylaxis or provable vaccine related injury that still think that there is a relationship between MMR and Autism.

The constant call to emotion from parents and campaigners claiming vaccine harm, yet ignoring evidence to the contrary without presenting and actual scientific rebuttal other than "Parents know".

The volition behind some people's stance against vaccination really needs to be questioned and understood.
The Anti-Vax side always claim big-pharma are chasing the money and pulling the strings.
I wonder if the same logic is applied to the main proponents of Anti-Vax claims, just where the money would lead?

expectationlost · 29-09-2019 1:13pm

expectationlost wrote: »

it seems the HPSC Epi-insight article has been withdrawn so we can't even read the original source, seems like a bad example to publish and was highly likely to be misconstrued by newspapers who wouldn't make the distinction about the non-type-able un-vacinatable virus that this kid had and the type you can and should get vaccinated for

found this HPSC EPi-insight article https://web.archive.org/web/20190607195732/http://ndsc.newsweaver.ie/epiinsight/1joxgamrkp5?a=1&p=55108355&t=17517774

This case highlights the potential for a vaccine preventable disease to cause acute, life-threatening illness in an unvaccinated child. The fact that this child was infected with a non typable H. influenzae strain is likely owing to ‘herd’ immunity attributable to the success of the Hib vaccine. The parents in this case were unduly influenced by wholly unproven vaccine related concerns on social media and were very disappointed with themselves for putting their child’s life at risk as a result.

confusing

Igotadose · 10-10-2019 9:06am

South Park's upcoming 300th episode (!) skewers anti-vax

https://www.nme.com/news/tv/south-park-takes-aim-2555336

mvl · 12-10-2019 11:38am

https://lynchlaw.ie/news/vaccine-not-tested-on-teens-before-%E2%80%98de-facto%E2%80%99-clinical-trial-court-told/

<<Ms Bennett is suing the Minister for Health, the HSE, Glaxosmithkline Biologicals SA (GSK), which produced the vaccine, and the Health Products Regulatory Authority, which has responsibility for the approval of medicines. The defendants deny the claims.

“This is not an anti-vaccination case,” Mr Gleeson told Mr Justice Michael McGrath. “There is no message going out from this courtroom that people shouldn’t vaccinate their children.”

The court would be told, Mr Gleeson said, that after clean water, vaccination was the single most positive development in public health programmes.

However, he said the administration of the vaccine that Ms Bennett had taken was badly managed.

The GSK-produced vaccine caused approximately 1,000 children across Europe to develop narcolepsy, with approximately “75 to 100 of these children” being in Ireland. >>

Igotadose · 01-11-2019 9:59am

This is making the science-news rounds. Contracting measles eliminates pre-existing immunities you might have built up prior to having measles. So, if you had chicken pox, then measles, you could get chicken pox again in theory. Likewise if you had polio vaccine, then measles, you'd lose your polio immunity in theory. Very scary stuff especially for those massively selfish and irresponsible types that assume forcing their children to contract childhood diseases will ensure their immunities as adults. Not if they get the measles last.

https://time.com/5714159/measles-immune-amnesia/

Dohnjoe · 07-11-2019 7:25pm

Good article about the technique of "firehosing" used by anti-vaxxers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/07/firehosing-the-systemic-strategy-that-anti-vaxxers-are-using-to-spread-misinformation

Like many who work in science and medicine, I am exasperated. How does this keep happening? Why do people keep giving snake-oil salesmen a microphone? And how can anti-vaxxers keep telling us the same obvious lies without shame, when they have been debunked and factchecked time and time again?

The answer to all my questions is simply that lying works. It’s a deliberate strategy. When anti-vaxxers are in the spotlight, we tend to focus on factchecking them, which is a natural reaction. But we should be paying more attention to the systemic strategies they use to spread their misinformation.

Ever heard of “firehosing”? It’s a relatively new term coined by Rand researchers Christopher Paul and Miriam Matthews in 2016 to describe the propaganda tactics Russian authorities use to quell dissent and control the political landscape. The term has since been applied to the authoritarian behavior of leaders in the US, Brazil and the Philippines.

What does this have to do with anti-science talkshows? So far, the concept of firehosing has only been applied to political propaganda. But I think there are many lessons here for those tracking areas of science denial such as vaccines and climate crisis.

Firehosing relies on pushing out as many lies as possible as frequently as possible. That’s typical for propaganda, but the aspect that makes firehosing a unique strategy is that it doesn’t require the propagandist to make the lies believable. That seems counterintuitive, but as Carlos Maza of Vox explains, firehosing is effective because its goal isn’t to persuade. It’s to rob facts of their power. Firehosing inundates us with so many wild opinions that it becomes exhausting to continually disprove them. In this scenario, reality is reduced to positioning and who can sell their position best.

hcf500 · 23-11-2019 4:39pm

Just as I predicted 2 months ago, there would not be much said on this thread about the outcome of the recent pandemrix vaccine trial in the High court! Somebody somewhere that dies from a vaccine preventable disease is news though! The state settled the case with the lady with narcolepsy though for anybody that missed it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 23-11-2019 4:54pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So you ignored a professional and chose not to vaccinate. You put your child's life (and the life of children around them) at risk because you were uncomfortable in your ignorance.

As for your friend: what's your point there?

The narcolepsy.

That vaccine is the one that I have no issues with people being wary about. It seemed rushed. It didn’t seem to have been rigorously tested. All that laborious testing is necessary and people were worried that the vaccine hadn’t been put through that process. That’s not irrational, that’s quite sensible. Especially if you’re pregnant.

I am very much pro-vaccine. I’m also interested in bioethics. Fuck ups have happened. Fuck ups will happen. It’s something we must remain eternally vigilant of.

Dohnjoe · 23-11-2019 5:13pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Just as I predicted 2 months ago, there would not be much said on this thread about the outcome of the recent pandemrix vaccine trial in the High court! Somebody somewhere that dies from a vaccine preventable disease is news though! The state settled the case with the lady with narcolepsy though for anybody that missed it.

For the 400th time, no one is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe.

Celebrating every time there is an issue or complication with one of the many vaccines in the world is the foundation anti-vax propaganda. It all feeds into their false global narrative "that vaccines don't work"

Failures are a medical science issue, not a social issue.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-11-2019 7:55pm

Measles is still out there

Samoa measles epidemic kills 20
That's one in ten thousand of the population so far.

DR Congo measles: Nearly 5,000 dead in major outbreak
It is estimated that a global total of 110,000 people die from measles each year.

mvl · 23-11-2019 10:05pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

For the 400th time, no one is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe.

Celebrating every time there is an issue or complication with one of the many vaccines in the world is the foundation anti-vax propaganda. It all feeds into their false global narrative "that vaccines don't work"

Failures are a medical science issue, not a social issue.

How this vaccine was promoted in Ireland does raise eyebrows. Now the case was settled with no admission of liability. This has nothing to do with medical science failures I am afraid: I prefer to think about systemic corruption.

CramCycle · 23-11-2019 10:13pm

hcf500 wrote: »

Just as I predicted 2 months ago, there would not be much said on this thread about the outcome of the recent pandemrix vaccine trial in the High court! Somebody somewhere that dies from a vaccine preventable disease is news though! The state settled the case with the lady with narcolepsy though for anybody that missed it.

The company that produced it themselves wouldn't stand over it (and demanded indemnity because of this) and some muppets in the HSE and above went ahead with it. This is a lack of due diligence. It is disgusting that they are not bringing those involved up to court over this, a civil case is easy to settle, a criminal case cannot be.
I do think the HSA also have a case against the company that they cannot be indemnified against as it would be criminal.
Loads of (non anti)vaccine posters in this thread have pointed out the huge issues involved, but rational people making rational points doesn't really suit the narrative of the anti vax camp who need a pro vaccine camp to fight against.
Reminds me of that Hard Line Christian vs Athiest meme

astrofool · 24-11-2019 1:10am

CramCycle wrote: »

The company that produced it themselves wouldn't stand over it (and demanded indemnity because of this) and some muppets in the HSE and above went ahead with it. This is a lack of due diligence. It is disgusting that they are not bringing those involved up to court over this, a civil case is easy to settle, a criminal case cannot be.
I do think the HSA also have a case against the company that they cannot be indemnified against as it would be criminal.
Loads of (non anti)vaccine posters in this thread have pointed out the huge issues involved, but rational people making rational points doesn't really suit the narrative of the anti vax camp who need a pro vaccine camp to fight against.
Reminds me of that Hard Line Christian vs Athiest meme

It's easy to forget the panic everywhere before the vaccine was available, being hyped up by the media and the public demanding action. I got the vaccine, but knew of the details and issues before getting it.

stefanovich · 24-11-2019 9:42am

So basically we cannot trust the HSE to make the right decision. Personal responsibility and informed choice.

mountai · 24-11-2019 10:06am

Yes you are correct . The culture of superiority within the HSE is astounding IMHO . https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/familys-anger-at-hostile-state-in-narcolepsy-defence-38720636.html . This article exemplifies the manner in which this toxic organization treats its victims . The next big scandal concerning vaccines is the HPV Vaccine . The present head of vaccines in Ireland , Dr Kevin Kellegher instructed that the PIL be deliberately hidden from
Parents before vaccination . He said the following approx 6 minutes into his discussion -- Cinema Modeoff
04 Disaster Ethics Dr Kevin Kelleher
04 Disaster Ethics Dr Kevin Kelleher

youtube.com5 years ago.

The Women of Ireland are treated like lowly minnions , guess what , they deserve it because not ONE OFFICIAL WOMENS ORGANIZATION have come out TO FIGHT the system in support of the recent scandals that the HSE has presided over .
BTW all my children , myself and my wife are fully vaccinated.

Igotadose · 24-11-2019 10:24am

mountai wrote: »

The Women of Ireland are treated like lowly minnions , guess what , they deserve it because not ONE OFFICIAL WOMENS ORGANIZATION have come out TO FIGHT the system in support of the recent scandals that the HSE has presided over .
BTW all my children , myself and my wife are fully vaccinated.

Uh, your anti-women diatribe doesn't reflect well on you and not sure what you're on about. The recent Cervical check scandals had nothing to do with vaccines, so why are you maligning women? Has your wife had the HPV vaccine?

But, that's neither here nor there when it comes to vaccines. As Dr. Kelleher says, they're looking to protect the health of the society and some may lose their individual liberties as a result. Example, during a pandemic, you may be forced to be vaccinated despite your objections.

BalcombeSt4 · 24-11-2019 10:31am

VinLieger wrote: »

Forced vaccination laws are a slippery slope, doing similar to Australia and not allowing kids attend public schools without them or even holding back certain benefits is the way to go

Slippery slope towards what? A slope towards dying from easily prevented diseases?

Seth Brundle · 24-11-2019 10:34am

stefanovich wrote: »

So basically we cannot trust the HSE to make the right decision. Personal responsibility and informed choice.

Bullsh1t in this case.
Nobody died from taking the vaccine. Some people believe (but cannot absolutely prove) sickness from the vaccine.
How many people could have died had the vaccine not been available?
Should the HSE not provide vaccines because someone may have a side effect?
Every medication has side effects. Should we stop using them all?

BalcombeSt4 · 24-11-2019 10:38am

mountai wrote: »

Yes you are correct . The culture of superiority within the HSE is astounding IMHO . https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/familys-anger-at-hostile-state-in-narcolepsy-defence-38720636.html . This article exemplifies the manner in which this toxic organization treats its victims . The next big scandal concerning vaccines is the HPV Vaccine . The present head of vaccines in Ireland , Dr Kevin Kellegher instructed that the PIL be deliberately hidden from
Parents before vaccination . He said the following approx 6 minutes into his discussion -- Cinema Modeoff
04 Disaster Ethics Dr Kevin Kelleher
04 Disaster Ethics Dr Kevin Kelleher

youtube.com5 years ago.

The Women of Ireland are treated like lowly minnions , guess what , they deserve it because not ONE OFFICIAL WOMENS ORGANIZATION have come out TO FIGHT the system in support of the recent scandals that the HSE has presided over .
BTW all my children , myself and my wife are fully vaccinated.

What the ****ing hell does that have to do with anything? The HSE isn't run soley by women. Did any official men's organization come out to protest?

banie01 · 24-11-2019 10:43am

mvl wrote: »

How this vaccine was promoted in Ireland does raise eyebrows. Now the case was settled with no admission of liability. This has nothing to do with medical science failures I am afraid: I prefer to think about systemic corruption.

You do realize that the vast majority of civel cases that are settled prior to a judicial ruling, are settled without an admission of liability?

It's why so many cases are settled on the steps, or in the early stages of High Court action.
It allows respondents to settle without the reputational damage of a verdict that labels them responsible.

Given the Anti-Vax use of this settlement as "proof" of vaccines bad?
Why is there no ire directed towards the plaintiff for accepting the settlement rather than force those who were responsible for approving Pandremix to face the light of day in court and face a a verdict?

stefanovich · 24-11-2019 10:53am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Bullsh1t in this case.
Nobody died from taking the vaccine. Some people believe (but cannot absolutely prove) sickness from the vaccine.
How many people could have died had the vaccine not been available?
Should the HSE not provide vaccines because someone may have a side effect?
Every medication has side effects. Should we stop using them all?

And yet they settled...

I would never just trust my doctor's word or that of the HSE. The amount of times I or a family member have been prescribed medication without any mention of side effects or risks and, on closer inspection, we have decided it is not worth it or even dangerous.

Doctors are good at examination and diagnosis but they are never going to care as much about you and your family as you yourself.

My advice is to do your own research and make your own decisions. Don't just pop every pill they give you. You are only a statistic after all.

stefanovich · 24-11-2019 10:54am

banie01 wrote: »

You do realize that the vast majority of civel cases that are settled prior to a judicial ruling, are settled without an admission of liability?

It's why so many cases are settled on the steps, or in the early stages of High Court action.
It allows respondents to settle without the reputational damage of a verdict that labels them responsible.

Given the Anti-Vax use of this settlement as "proof" of vaccines bad?
Why is there no ire directed towards the plaintiff for accepting the settlement rather than force those who were responsible for approving Pandremix to face the light of day in court and face a a verdict?

If they could defend the case they would.

Igotadose · 24-11-2019 10:59am

stefanovich wrote: »

If they could defend the case they would.

Proof by blatant assertion. Sorry, fail.

jh79 · 24-11-2019 11:05am

stefanovich wrote: »

If they could defend the case they would.

Have you looked at the evidence? Only some countries showed increased narcolepsy eventhough they used the same vaccine.
Normally 1 in 100,000 get narcolepsy, it increased to 4 in some countries.

Judges are not scientists and often make ridiculous rulings eg Glycoposhate recently. So makes sense to settle.

stefanovich · 24-11-2019 11:05am

Igotadose wrote: »

Proof by blatant assertion. Sorry, fail.

CDC agrees with me.

jh79 · 24-11-2019 11:07am

stefanovich wrote: »

And yet they settled...

I would never just trust my doctor's word or that of the HSE. The amount of times I or a family member have been prescribed medication without any mention of side effects or risks and, on closer inspection, we have decided it is not worth it or even dangerous.

Doctors are good at examination and diagnosis but they are never going to care as much about you and your family as you yourself.

My advice is to do your own research and make your own decisions. Don't just pop every pill they give you. You are only a statistic after all.

You really think Dr Google is good advice?

stefanovich · 24-11-2019 11:09am

jh79 wrote: »

You really think Dr Google is good advice?

Did I say that? You are for blindly taking everything given to you without ever reading the leaflets?

Doctor prescribes cream for an eye infection. Leaflet says it is dangerous during pregnancy. Take it anyway?

We just regularly cleaned the eye and it was resolved. No risk to baby.

jh79 · 24-11-2019 11:10am

stefanovich wrote: »

CDC agrees with me.

It doesn't . It says there was an association given that only some countries seen this association it could be the ASO3 or some other factor but we'll never know for sure.

stefanovich · 24-11-2019 11:11am

jh79 wrote: »

It doesn't . It says there was an association given that only some countries seen this association it could be the ASO3 or some other factor but we'll never know for sure.

Why will we never know? Surely if it is so safe we are still taking it and therefore we will have loads of data?

Anti-vaxxers

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