Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

FTA69 · 14-09-2018 3:21pm

Why are people doing mental backflips in order to avoid the idea that Putin and the Russian state did in one of their enemies? It's not like they don't have form for this at home and abroad like.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:27pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That second report is false they were captured on video walking near the petrol station on the main road that was nearby to Skipral home. There no evidence of them entering the estate to Skipral home.

Are you telling me that there is nothing unusual about landing at the train station, going the opposite direction away from the town and being spotted 8 minutes from the Skripal home?

This is getting more ridiculous than your 911 thread.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:29pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Why are people doing mental backflips in order to avoid the idea that Putin and the Russian state did in one of their enemies? It's not like they don't have form for this at home and abroad like.

Because they start with the premise that it couldn't be Russia and work backwards from there. The problem with doing that is that those mental backflips are the only way to explain the mountain of evidence implicating Russia.

Billy86 · 14-09-2018 3:29pm

Not directly related but Dutch intelligence have detained two further spies trying to break into a Swiss lab - https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

Mainly linking because I got a laugh that of all labs, he spies targeted the Spiez lab.:D

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:33pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are you telling me that there is nothing unusual about landing at the train station, going the opposite direction away from the town and being spotted 8 minutes from the Skripal home?

This is getting more ridiculous than your 911 thread.

What is ridiculous you have accepted this narrative even though we have no evidence the Skiprals returned home after leaving at 9 am in the morning and for some unknown reason, it took 3 hours for Novitchok to work. I don't believe the British police version of them touching the door sometime between 12 am and 1 pm. Their movements have been tracked from 1 pm to 4 pm

wexie · 14-09-2018 3:35pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Not directly related but Dutch intelligence have detained two further spies trying to break into a Swiss lab - https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

Mainly linking because I got a laugh that of all labs, he spies targeted the Spiez lab.:D

They were just tourists!!!!

:rolleyes:

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:42pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

Because they start with the premise that it couldn't be Russia and work backwards from there. The problem with doing that is that those mental backflips are the only way to explain the mountain of evidence implicating Russia.

It based on evidence, that you don't seem to care about. The Skiprals its established fact not Russian propaganda were having meals at restaurants and pubs from 1.15pm to 4 pm. That it took nearly 3 hours for Novitchok to affect them is ludicrous. I love to know what a scientist thinks in regards that. Military grade nerve agent is supposed to affect you relatively quickly.

wexie · 14-09-2018 3:47pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That it took nearly 3 hours for Novitchok to affect them is ludicrous. I love to know what a scientist thinks in regards that. Military grade nerve is supposed to affect you relatively quickly.

And you know this because.....?

Maybe it takes a lot longer when it's absorbed through the skin rather than inhaled, maybe it was Novichok 'lite'™. There are any number of plausible reasons for this, all of which experts have already looked at.

You could really do with trying to understand Occam's razor

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:50pm

wexie wrote: »

And you know this because.....?

Maybe it takes a lot longer when it's absorbed through the skin rather than inhaled, maybe it was Novichok 'lite'™. There are any number of plausible reasons for this, all of which experts have already looked at.

You could really do with trying to understand Occam's razor

If you think that's even remotely possible post information from a scientist who has claimed this can occur, otherwise it just a strawman to deflect.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:54pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Not directly related but Dutch intelligence have detained two further spies trying to break into a Swiss lab - https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/09/russian-spies-detained-in-the-hague-were-planning-cyber-break-in-at-swiss-lab-nrc/

Mainly linking because I got a laugh that of all labs, he spies targeted the Spiez lab.:D

Maybe these rogue tourists who poisoned the Skripals had some other rogue friends who were just trying to help them out.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 3:55pm

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 3:57pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What is ridiculous you have accepted this narrative even though we have no evidence the Skiprals returned home after leaving at 9 am in the morning and for some unknown reason, it took 3 hours for Novitchok to work. I don't believe the British police version of them touching the door sometime between 12 am and 1 pm. Their movements have been tracked from 1 pm to 4 pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It based on evidence, that you don't seem to care about. The Skiprals its established fact not Russian propaganda were having meals at restaurants and pubs from 1.15pm to 4 pm. That it took nearly 3 hours for Novitchok to affect them is ludicrous. I love to know what a scientist thinks in regards that. Military grade nerve agent is supposed to affect you relatively quickly.

This has been explained to you by others multiple times. The potency, amount and delivery mechanism make a huge difference.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 3:58pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

you should really try to read all of a page before replying. you missed this bit just further down. I was just about to post a link to that page so you saved me the bother.

Symptoms are the same as those of other nerve agents as shown in Table 5.11 (p. 257). Local effects are thought to be immediate, while systemic effects may be delayed up to 18 hours.

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

Edgarfrndly · 14-09-2018 4:02pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

The main route of exposure is thought to be by inhalation, although absorption may also occur via skin or mucous membrane exposure.

That is why ^

The duration it takes to affect via skin is substantially longer.

Skin exposure to VX does not cause immediate or rapid poisoning. Indeed, the first signs and symptoms of exposure can take up to 18 hours.

Source: https://theconversation.com/how-novichok-is-different-from-radioactive-poisons-and-what-this-means-for-decontamination-99464

wexie · 14-09-2018 4:02pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

Cheerful Spring wrote:

yeah but, yeah but...that bit of information doesn't fit my outlandish theory and if I have to start rationally examining my own beliefs I may eventually be forced to come to the conclusion I'm actually wrong, and may have been wrong before!!!

:rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:03pm

wexie wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Blimey i thought that was an actual quote from CS. I nearly passed out.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 4:04pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

He won't. He'll just move on to another debunked conspiracy theory and I and others will have to waste time and energy correcting it.

As I keep saying, it's a firehose of falsehood.

cnocbui · 14-09-2018 4:06pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Someone better explain how the Skipral walked around for 3 hours and never showed symptoms?

You are trolling again. I know for a fact that I have at least twice pointed out to you, with links, that Porton Down determined the Novichok was deliberately denatured and put into a gel-form for absorption through the skin in order to delay by hours the onset of it's effects in order, presumably, give the assassins time to leave the country.

The rapid action time frame for Novichok would be based on the pure agent with a delivery mechanism that caused it to be inhaled as vapour. Any toxin is going to be vastly faster acting if it comes into contact with mucous membranes.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:09pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you should really try to read all of a page before replying. you missed this bit just further down. I was just about to post a link to that page so you saved me the bother.

UP TO 18 HOURS. So tell me now how it is inconceivable that they were still alive 3 hours later?

This is VX, not Novitchok try again. Least try to match the nerve agents.

Science article I posted says
Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:15pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This is VX, not Novitchok try again. Least try to match the nerve agents.

Science article I posted says
Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

clearly you are determined to prove how obstinate a human can be. the piece i quoted is directly under the piece you quoted and refers to Novichok. It is the only mention on that page of 18 hours so you cannot tell me you were looking at the wrong part of the page.

Onset

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.
Major symptoms

Symptoms are the same as those of other nerve agents as shown in Table 5.11 (p. 257). Local effects are thought to be immediate, while systemic effects may be delayed up to 18 hours.

Now tell me again that the "up to 18 hours" does not apply to novichok.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:17pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You are trolling again. I know for a fact that I have at least twice pointed out to you, with links, that Porton Down determined the Novichok was deliberately denatured and put into a gel-form for absorption through the skin in order to delay by hours the onset of it's effects in order, presumably, give the assassins time to leave the country.

The rapid action time frame for Novichok would be based on the pure agent with a delivery mechanism that caused it to be inhaled as vapour. Any toxin is going to be vastly faster acting if it comes into contact with mucous membranes.

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 4:25pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

Are you saying that they weren't poisoned by novichok? It seems to me that you're just throwing shít at the wall hoping that it will stick.

cnocbui · 14-09-2018 4:26pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

You don't even have a slight grasp on reality, do you?

On 3 May 2018, the head of the OPCW, Ahmet ümcü, informed the New York Times that he had been told that about 50-100g of the nerve agent was thought to have been used in the attack, which indicated it was likely created for use as a weapon and was enough to kill a large number of people.[75] The next day however the OPCW made a correcting statement that the "quantity should probably be characterised in milligrams", though "the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:29pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Skripals poisoned by novichok dose of up to 100g, watchdog says

Hardly a small dosage.

Was the bottle found sealed in a box, not a liquid? That means if the people involved had another batch they were spraying it on.

100g? i think you need to read that again. 100g of Vx is enough to kill approx 40,000 and novichok is a lot more potent.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

clearly you are determined to prove how obstinate a human can be. the piece i quoted is directly under the piece you quoted and refers to Novichok. It is the only mention on that page of 18 hours so you cannot tell me you were looking at the wrong part of the page.

Now tell me again that the "up to 18 hours" does not apply to novichok.

Local effects, abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. They are immediate.

System effects - Unconscious, talking but not walking, moderate to severe effects in two or systems more systems (e.g., respiratory, GI, cardiac arrest. muscular, CNS)

Dosage they received was very high over 100 grams.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:32pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Local effects, abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. They are immediate.

System effects - Unconscious, talking but not walking, moderate to severe effects in two or systems more systems (e.g., respiratory, GI, cardiac arrest. muscular, CNS)

Dosage they received was very high over 100 grams.

it was in its bollix. if they had 100g of novichok they could have killed the whole town.

cnocbui · 14-09-2018 4:32pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Local effects, abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea. They are immediate.

System effects - Unconscious, talking but not walking, moderate to severe effects in two or systems more systems (e.g., respiratory, GI, cardiac arrest. muscular, CNS)

Dosage they received was very high over 100 grams.

I can think of someone i would like to see get a 100g dose of it.

mcmoustache · 14-09-2018 4:34pm

Russian Propaganda. The Firehose of falsehood. It might make some more sense in the context of this thread.

Distinctive Features of the Contemporary Model for Russian Propaganda
1. High-volume and multichannel
2. Rapid, continuous, and repetitive
3. Lacks commitment to objective reality
4. Lacks commitment to consistency.

Cheerful Spring · 14-09-2018 4:36pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You don't even have a slight grasp on reality, do you?

How is not reality when it was reported there even in your posted link they thought 50 to 100grams was used?

OPCW then says probably only milligrams

OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

It could be grams if all they know. They are judging on a sample headed to them by Porton down.

ohnonotgmail · 14-09-2018 4:38pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

How is not reality when it was reported there even in your posted link they thought 50 to 100grams was used?

OPCW then says probably only milligrams but they don't what OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used".[76][77]

It could be grams if all they know. They are judging on sample headed to them by Porton down.

you mean the report that was corrected because a reporter used the wrong units? that is the hill you want to die on? I think they know themselves how much of a sample they have. They are scientists after all so you should accept what they say.

Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

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