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Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order
Comments
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Audio link to the radio 4 Programme
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xtr9
I just listen to the programme.
Some of the Irish soldier did go to jail. They were ones who came back to Ireland on leave from the British army during the war.
One of them Phil Farring was interviewed on the programme. He was jailed in a military prison in Cork, after he was released he left the country and rejoined the British army.0 -
Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce) still has not been pardoned yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce0 -
Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce) still has not been pardoned yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce
The only phrase that springs to mind is "slim to none" on that ever happening, but you never know.0 -
Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce) still has not been pardoned yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce
I fail to see how Joyce is relevant.
These guys deserted to fight against fascism in a war in which their country was neutral(ish). Their crime was desertion.
Joyce actively engaged in acts that were meant to undermine his country whilst working for the enemy. His crime was treason (although he did give plenty of people a good laugh, particularly when he announced that HMS Kestral had been sunk, much to the bewilderment of all those based there and the surrounding villages.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »I fail to see how Joyce is relevant.
These guys deserted to fight against fascism in a war in which their country was neutral(ish). Their crime was desertion.
Joyce actively engaged in acts that were meant to undermine his country whilst working for the enemy. His crime was treason (although he did give plenty of people a good laugh, particularly when he announced that HMS Kestral had been sunk, much to the bewilderment of all those based there and the surrounding villages.
The guys deserted this is true.
They also fought in a war that was none of our business against countries had no quarrel with.
William Joyce's crime was obtaining a British passport by Fraud. the fine for that was 10 shillings.
He could not have committed treason against Britain as he was not a British citizen.
The was born in America and was an Irish citizen.and later a German citizen.
My point was if we are going to let bygones be bygone this should extend to William Joyce too.
What I do not understand is if they wanted to fight the fascist why did they join the Irish army first?
I wonder if the deserted and joined the German/Finish or national armies fighting Stalin and the Communist on the Eastern front would the BBC be make a programme about them getting a pardon.
Irish Volunteers in German Service
"There were no Irish units in the Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht, although there were Irish volunteers.
In the spring of 1941, the Abwehr trawled through 'British' POWs that they held in the hope of finding Irish Republicans who would be prepared to act as the nucleus of an 'Irish Brigade' modeled on Casement's concept from the First World War. In May 1941, about 50 Irishmen were concentrated at a special camp at Friesack where they were to be subjected to propaganda and persuasion. It says much about the mentality of the Irish prisoners - all regular soldiers of the British Army, whether from Ulster or Eire - that they elected a 'Senior British Officer' to represent them. This was initially a Lieutenant Bissell, but subsequently Major John McGrath of the Royal Engineers.
The Irishmen were subjected to intense psychological pressure and eventually, in December 1941, five of them were removed to a safe-house in Berlin. Their names were Brady, Cushing, Walsh, O'Brien and Murphy. Instead of being formed into a military unit, as the Germans had originally envisaged, the five then began training as Abwehr spies; in early 1942, a sixth man, Frank Stringer, also joined this process.
It is worth mentioning at this point, that all of the 'volunteers' had actually discussed the matter with Major McGrath and that at least four of the men (Cushing, Walsh, O'Brien and Murphy) had no intention of genuinely changing their allegiance but were seeking a means of escape. As a result, none of the Irishmen were actually dropped as spies, and both Cushing and Walsh ended up as inmates of Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
Brady and Stringer continued to work, on and off, for the Abwehr, but eventually their services were dispensed with and, rather than doing agricultural work as POWs, both opted to join the Waffen-SS. They reported to Sennheim in October 1943 and were posted to 'Jagdverbande Mitte' in March 1944, under the aliases 'Charles Strength Lacy' and 'Willy Lepage'.
Brady certainly took part in operations in Rumania, as well as 'Operation Panzerfaust' - the arrest of Admiral Horthy, whilst Stringer appears to have had a quieter time, working as a cook. In early 1945 both were fighting on the Eastern Front as members of Otto Skorzeny's ad hoc division at Schwedt an der Oder. By this time, Brady was an Unterscharfuehrer. As the war came to an end, Stringer escaped westwards and gave himself up to US forces, who handed him over to the British, whilst Brady, who was wounded, was in an SS hospital. He escaped after the Russians had taken it over and spent more than a year 'on the run' with other Waffen-SS 'special forces' soldiers before giving himself up to the British in Berlin. He received a fifteen-year sentence at a court martial in London in 1946.
One other Irishman is reported as having served in the Waffen-SS: 'Patrick O'Neill' was supposedly a doctor in SS-Bewahrungsverbande 500, a penal unit. I have seen no documentary evidence that this was the case but it is quite possible.
Other Irishmen worked for the Germans as spies and radio propaganda broadcasters, but their numbers weren't huge and probably came to less than ten or fifteen.
Contrary to popular supposition, no Irishmen served in the 'British Free Corps'."
http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/ssvols.htm
James Brady (born 20 May 1920, date of death unknown) was one of two Irishmen known to have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brady_%28SS%290 -
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Thanks for that link, Belfast, I just finished listening to the programme myself.
Those men who deserted the Irish army during a time of national crisis were punished quite rightly in 1945 by having any benefits accruing from their military service negated and being denied future employment out of the public purse for a period SEVEN YEARS. They could be employed in the private sector (and were) or could go abroad.
Yet the programme featured a 90 year old stating that he still remained in fear of a knock on the door because of his desertion 70 years ago! Another claimed the punishment was tantamount to starvation for him and his family. I put it to you that these men’s punishment was over a long time ago, that nobody is looking to knock on his door, and that there were many families aside from those of these deserters who were living below the breadline in Ireland.
The programme was biased and exhibited extremely poor standards. I found it biased, disingenuous and emotive. It had a clear and unambiguous agenda. The BBC cannot hold it up as an example of impartiality in broadcasting. It nailed its colours to the mast and will stand or fall accordingly.
However, regarding the issue and with the benefit of historical hindsight these men should be pardoned but I have serious concerns about their honour and integrity. They enlisted or were called up when Ireland was neutral and at a time of national emergency. Ultimately they put themselves first and before their sworn allegiance to their country. The boring mundanity of daily life in their national army, which was ill-equipped, Mickey Mouse and of poor moral, was not good enough to overcome their need for military adventure. Even if we grant them nobler motives of wanting to fight Nazi tyranny and inhumanity (and that was not clearly evident until late in the war – all people had was propaganda and media censureship) we must ask why they joined the Army of a non-belligerent neutral! Why did they not go to enlist in Britain where they were guaranteed the opportunity to fight their crusade or get their combat adventure? Which came first for them: their anti-Nazi idealism or boredom in an Irish military camp?
Give them their pardon, I say, let them have what they want, but I am reminded of the words of JFK: ‘Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.’0 -
The guys deserted this is true.
They also fought in a war that was none of our business against countries had no quarrel with.
The war was very much our business. It is conjecture what might have followed a British defeat but I think Alan Shatter refered to this element of the discussion in the Dail on 12 July 2011:Had there been a different outcome to World War II there is no reason to believe that this State would have been immune to invasion. http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/07/12/00252.asp
The clammer for pardoning the men in the program is based on their service, i.e. what they did for the allied side during WWII. Thus it is a fundamentally different situation for Joyce although I see the point you are making. In the Dail debate immediately following order 362 a similar type query was answered by a FG TD who indicated that a deserter to Germany should be pardoned also. I posted this already but it is interesting.William Joyce's crime was obtaining a British passport by Fraud. the fine for that was 10 shillings.
He could not have committed treason against Britain as he was not a British citizen.
The was born in America and was an Irish citizen.and later a German citizen.
My point was if we are going to let bygones be bygone this should extend to William Joyce too.
...
I wonder if the deserted and joined the German/Finish or national armies fighting Stalin and the Communist on the Eastern front would the BBC be make a programme about them getting a pardon.Mr. R. Walsh: I have been 16 or 17 years in this House. I have heard many speeches, anti-national and otherwise, but I have never listened to a speech that seemed to be so deliberately intended to do the maximum harm to this country and to this State by deliberately misconstruing the Order referred to as that which has just been delivered. I wonder if the Deputy who is so anxious to secure justice for those men would extend that justice to any one of those men who happened to join the German Army.
Dr. O'Higgins: Definitely, I should do so. There is your answer. http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1945/10/18/00027.asp
Perhaps some were in the Irish army before the war started.What I do not understand is if they wanted to fight the fascist why did they join the Irish army first?0 -
Ozymandiaz wrote: »Thanks for that link, Belfast, I just finished listening to the programme myself.
Those men who deserted the Irish army during a time of national crisis were punished quite rightly in 1945 by having any benefits accruing from their military service negated and being denied future employment out of the public purse for a period SEVEN YEARS. They could be employed in the private sector (and were) or could go abroad.
Yet the programme featured a 90 year old stating that he still remained in fear of a knock on the door because of his desertion 70 years ago! Another claimed the punishment was tantamount to starvation for him and his family. I put it to you that these men’s punishment was over a long time ago, that nobody is looking to knock on his door, and that there were many families aside from those of these deserters who were living below the breadline in Ireland.
The programme was biased and exhibited extremely poor standards. I found it biased, disingenuous and emotive. It had a clear and unambiguous agenda. The BBC cannot hold it up as an example of impartiality in broadcasting. It nailed its colours to the mast and will stand or fall accordingly.
However, regarding the issue and with the benefit of historical hindsight these men should be pardoned but I have serious concerns about their honour and integrity. They enlisted or were called up when Ireland was neutral and at a time of national emergency. Ultimately they put themselves first and before their sworn allegiance to their country. The boring mundanity of daily life in their national army, which was ill-equipped, Mickey Mouse and of poor moral, was not good enough to overcome their need for military adventure. Even if we grant them nobler motives of wanting to fight Nazi tyranny and inhumanity (and that was not clearly evident until late in the war – all people had was propaganda and media censureship) we must ask why they joined the Army of a non-belligerent neutral! Why did they not go to enlist in Britain where they were guaranteed the opportunity to fight their crusade or get their combat adventure? Which came first for them: their anti-Nazi idealism or boredom in an Irish military camp?
Give them their pardon, I say, let them have what they want, but I am reminded of the words of JFK: ‘Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.’
Regardless of Lord Haw How's nationality, he was still on the side of the enemy. He wanted a British passport because he wanted to be British. He was also a fascist and an all round nasty piece of work. Despite this, there are suggestions he traded his life for that of his equally fascist wife who was undoubtedly a British citizen but escaped the rope.
If these men went and fought for the Russians, Finns or even the Americans then there would be little or no British interest there, so a British (the first B in BBC in case you were wondering) tv station probably wouldn't bother making a tv programme about them and let's face it, there is a cluster**** in this country every year around the 2nd Sunday in November, so I wouldn't be surprised if these men were a little shy to announce what they were doing during the emergency.
Maybe you could explain what agenda there is here?
Oh, BTW, you forgot one significant Irishman from that period. He worked for an organisation outlawed by the dail, died on a German submarine whilst helping the Germans plan an invasion of Ireland and ended up getting a statue to commemorate him.0 -
And why not pardon Joyce if we are on the subject of mixed identities.
Classy, I wish I'd thought of it but then I decided to see if Kevin Myers had anything to say and came across this piece.But the problem of the place of the volunteers in Ireland’s epochal narrative remained, particularly as republican-nationalist dismissals of them came to have less and less purchase in public and political opinion. One obvious solution was to revise the narrative itself, to argue that Ireland wasn’t really neutral at all during the war, that it was a non-belligerent on the side of the allies, that the country did as much as it could to aid the allied side during the war. Within that framework the volunteers could be lauded as heroes who made a significant contribution to the allied cause, a not to be forgotten Irish dimension of the anti-fascist struggle during the Second World War. This revised narrative of the role of Ireland and the Irish in the Second World War came in the 1980s and 1990s to form the backbone of most historical works on the topic. In press coverage of anniversaries of the war, articles and editorials defending Irish neutrality stood side by side with features on the exploits of Irish volunteers. It is a viewpoint exemplified, by among others, Kevin Myers – a staunch defender of Irish wartime neutrality, but one who spent many years campaigning for public and official recognition of the Irish veterans of World War II. In November 1999 Myers wrote:Ireland now officially remembers its lost sons of the Great War without embarrassment or shame. It would be no bad thing if people also freely recalled the purely personal and voluntary sacrifice made by many individuals, unsupported by any political campaign and rigorously concealed by the censor – even in their deaths – those whose fight for freedom helped to give us a free Europe.But Myers underestimated the extent to which the Irish volunteers of World War II had already been fully rehabilitated – politically, historically, and in popular opinion. The contemporary consensus which views both the volunteers and wartime neutrality in a positive light is, of course, largely an updated version of R.M. Smyllie’s position, basically an attempt to harmonise the Irish neutralist position during the war with support for the allied cause.
Officially, the long government silence on the volunteers began to be broken in 1994 when Bertie Ahern (then Minister of Finance) formally opened the renovated and completed Islandbridge war memorial. Kevin Myers commented that Ahern’s presence signified “a change in attitude towards Irishness, in definitions of what it is to be Irish and how many forms of Irishness there can be without betrayal of anybody or anything.”
The organisation behind the site is the Reform Group and it looks like a pro Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth site
http://www.reform.org/site/2004/01/11/irish-ww2/
It says DeV's logic was that small nations like Belgium and Holland got creamed and"De Valera’s statement coincided with the publication of Pope Pius XII’s expressions of sympathy for the plight of Belgium and Holland. But, much like Pius, de Valera was to maintain his silence thereafter"
There were some challenges to de Valera’s nationalistic neutralist narrative – above all by James Dillon, until 1942 deputy leader of Fine Gael . Dillon argued that there was a great struggle against evil unfolding in the world, a struggle which Ireland should be part of. But de Valera’s viewpoint was the one accepted by Fine Gael and the rest of the Irish political elite.
andFine Gael’s strong support for neutrality amounted de facto to an abandonment of its distinct identity as the “commonwealth party. During the war Fine Gael made numerous reaffirmations of its support for Irish participation in the Commonwealth, but, as Hogan pointed out, standing aside when the very existence of the Commonwealth was at stake was tantamount to its abandonment. In this connection it cannot be without significance that it was a Fine Gael-led coalition government that took Ireland out of the Commonwealth and established the Republic in 1948.
And then there is the numbersOthers have pointed to the significance of the fact that between 1939 and 1945 nearly 200,000 workers from Eire migrated to work in the British war economy – most of whom remained in the country after the war.
And also estimates the numbers who served from north and south at 120,000During the war an estimated 70,000 citizens of neutral Ireland served in the British armed forces, together with 50,000 or so from Northern Ireland.
Now , I have no problem with people serving etc , and the only issue I have with the campaign is that it somehow suggests that the action taken against Irish soldiers who "defected" was wrong when I feel it destabilised the fledgling state.
So there is a bit of a pro-treaty angle there too amongst nationalist's such as James Dillon.
AndBrian Girvin quotes Fine Gael leader Richard Mulcahy’s summary judgement in July 1940:“Dev would have to swerve his party away from their present road. He could only get half. Cosgrave two thirds. We would be left with a divided front. One third of the country opposed to us. This would be a matter of terrible difficulty. The one third of the country would be that part with the greatest possible capacity for nuisance and damage.”
So while my view is fairly straight forward , these Reform Group guys argue that between half and two thirds of the population were pro-British at a push and far from clear cut.
Fine Gael - the Commonwealth Party - now that would be a vote getter but is it representative of the era or not ?0 -
It should be understood that William Joyce sealed his fate by having held a British Passport - at his trial his Barrister argued that the charge of treason couild not stand as Joyce was not British - the Judge ruled that as a British passport holder he was classed as British and thus the charge stood.
Lord Haw Haw was hoist by his own petard.0 -
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In reality, I could never see why the British hanged Joyce and Field Marshall Smuts petitioned Atlee for a reprieve for John Amery an actual British citizen who plead guilty and was the son of a Conservative politician.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Before Amery's execution Field Marshal Smuts sent the following letter to Prime Minister Clement Attlee:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]PRIME MINISTER 14 December 1945.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mr. Heaton Nicholls telephoned to say that he had received the following cable from Field Marshal Smuts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Please convey to Mr Attlee a private and personal message from me as soon as possible in connection with the possible execution of Amery’s son. We have had similar cases in South Africa, in none of which execution has been inflicted, as the acts were more of an ideological than of a criminal character. I am deeply moved by consideration for Amery and his wife, both of whom have deserved well of their country."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/john_amery.htm[/FONT]
There were other broadcasters such as Norman Baillie-Stewart, a British officer, who recieved a jail sentence and PG Wodehouse who didn't .
So if you use Joyce's hanging as a yardstick the "dishonourable discharges" meted out were not at all harsh.
What interests me was the broadcasts were not illegal it was probably their efforts to recruit POW's for the British Freikorps that got them hanged and their notoriety.
So, the recruitment of serving soldiers is a bad thing by that standard .0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Regardless of Lord Haw How's nationality, he was still on the side of the enemy. He wanted a British passport because he wanted to be British. He was also a fascist and an all round nasty piece of work. Despite this, there are suggestions he traded his life for that of his equally fascist wife who was undoubtedly a British citizen but escaped the rope.
He was on the side of Britain's enemy not ours.
You are right he was a nasty piece of work and was probably nuts.
He could should used his talent for something better that being a mouth piece of one of the most evil governments on the face of the earth.
Yes you are correct he did want to be British. He should have made a legal applicant for a British passport.
if he had got a legal British passport , his conviction for treason would be correct.
I think the real reason he was hanged was he annoyed Churchill so much.
His wife was a British citizen. This may have changed after he married her , as under British law a wife automatically took on the citizenship of the husband.
Joyce's mother was fined for this reason. She was fined for entering Britian without a valid visa.
He husband had be granted American citizenship making Mrs Joyce an American citizen under British law.Fratton Fred wrote: »If these men went and fought for the Russians, Finns or even the Americans then there would be little or no British interest there, so a British (the first B in BBC in case you were wondering) tv station probably wouldn't bother making a tv programme about them and let's face it, there is a cluster**** in this country every year around the 2nd Sunday in November, so I wouldn't be surprised if these men were a little shy to announce what they were doing during the emergency..
James Brady deserted the British army and fought for the Germans. He surrendered to the British Army in 1946 and was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. He was released in 1950 and returned to Ireland.
He is dead now.Fratton Fred wrote: »Oh, BTW, you forgot one significant Irishman from that period. He worked for an organisation outlawed by the dail, died on a German submarine whilst helping the Germans plan an invasion of Ireland and ended up getting a statue to commemorate him.
Both Russell and Frank Ryan, (who had arrived in Berlin on 4 August), departed aboard U-65 from Wilhelmshaven on 8 August- the mission was titled Operation Dove ("Unternehmen Taube" in German).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dove_%28Ireland%29
The plan was not for a German invasion but to get the IRA to set off bombs to disrupt British war production.
Germany never had a navy that was able to transport an army to Ireland or keep it supplied in the field.
The IRA were using foolish logic was "my enemy's enemy is my friend". I think they would have accepted help from anyone who would help them fight the British.0 -
The IRA were using foolish logic was "my enemy's enemy is my friend". I think they would have accepted help from anyone who would help them fight the British.
And like it or not this "collaborative neutrality" depended upon keeping the IRA in check.
Joining the Allies could have caused Civil War and that was Mulcahy's opinion.
So the active recruitment of deserters from the Irish army had a destabilizing influence.
Ireland was between a rock and a hard place.0 -
In reality, I could never see why the British hanged Joyce and Field Marshall Smuts petitioned Atlee for a reprieve for John Amery an actual British citizen who plead guilty and was the son of a Conservative politician.
There were other broadcasters such as Norman Baillie-Stewart, a British officer, who recieved a jail sentence and PG Wodehouse who didn't .
So if you use Joyce's hanging as a yardstick the "dishonourable discharges" meted out were not at all harsh.
What interests me was the broadcasts were not illegal it was probably their efforts to recruit POW's for the British Freikorps that got them hanged and their notoriety.
So, the recruitment of serving soldiers is a bad thing by that standard .
1. William Joyce, on the 18th of September, 1939, and on other days between that day and the 29th of May, 1945, being a person owing allegiance to our Lord the King, and while a war was being carried on by the German Realm against our King, did traitorously adhere to the King's enemies in Germany, by broadcasting propaganda.
2. William Joyce, on the 26th of September, 1940, being a person who owed allegiance as in the other count, adhered to the King's enemies by purporting to become naturalized as a subject of Germany.
3. William Joyce, on the 18th of September, 1939, and on other days between that day and the 2nd of July, 1940, being a person owing allegiance to our Lord the King, and while a war was being carried on by the German Realm against our King, did traitorously adhere to the King's enemies in Germany, by broadcasting propaganda.[
William Joyce was charged with 3 charges.
He was acquitted of the first and second charges, but convicted of the 3rd
Joyce also argued that jurisdiction had been wrongly assumed by the court in electing to try an alien for offences committed in a foreign country. This argument was also rejected, on the basis that a state may exercise such jurisdiction in the interests of its own security.0 -
Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce) still has not been pardoned yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce
although the crown knew he was not a British citizen.a travesty of justice.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »I fail to see how Joyce is relevant.
These guys deserted to fight against fascism in a war in which their country was neutral(ish). Their crime was desertion.
Joyce actively engaged in acts that were meant to undermine his country whilst working for the enemy. His crime was treason (although he did give plenty of people a good laugh, particularly when he announced that HMS Kestral had been sunk, much to the bewilderment of all those based there and the surrounding villages.
he was born in New York, grew up in Galway and became a German citizen in 1940. How does that qualify for treason?0 -
.
James Brady deserted the British army and fought for the Germans. He surrendered to the British Army in 1946 and was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. He was released in 1950 and returned to Ireland.
He is dead now.
.[/QUOTE]
where did you get the information that james brady is dead? information on him after 1950 is hard come by. I am surprised he has not been the subject of any documentary. He was grilled by G2 when he returned here.
a lot of folks never forgave Francis Stuart for his broadcasts, though he managed to successfully to sue the Irish times for labeling him an anti semite.0 -
he was born in New York, grew up in Galway and became a German citizen in 1940. How does that qualify for treason?
He took a British Passport and was only tried for treason up to the point his passport expired.
It was tenuous, but how many people actually mourned his death? Also, as I said in a subsequent post, there is some speculation that he did a deal which kept his wife away from the gallows.
My point though with regards the difference, is that Joyce left the country he had lived and worked in (and became a political activist in) for the majority of his life to join a nation Britain was at war with and set about to subvert Britain.
I know there is a strong argument that he was unfairly tried for treason, but I don't see his death as being any great loss to the gene pool.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »
My point though with regards the difference, is that Joyce left the country he had lived and worked in (and became a political activist in) for the majority of his life to join a nation Britain was at war with and set about to subvert Britain.
And the recruitment of serving Irish soldiers from a friendly nation by Britain was not subverting Ireland?
DeValera tried, imprisoned & hanged terrorist leaders and interned at least 1,100 active IRA members for anti British activity.I know there is a strong argument that he was unfairly tried for treason, but I don't see his death as being any great loss to the gene pool.
His death was a loss to his wife , daughter & brother, and maybe even Sir Oswald Mosley shed a tear.
I do not think the issue is that it was a miscarriage of justice, as that is fairly irrelevant, the standard of justice applied is.
No-one in Ireland mourned him and that is hardly the point , the point is that, by the standards of justice applied by Britain ( & Ireland) at the time these deserters/defectors got away scot free.
What happened to them was that they were dishonourably discharged from the Irish Army as deserters.
The radio show by the BBC , the state broadcaster in the UK, is inherently anti Irish (whether intentionally or not) and wrongly portrays Ireland in a prejorative way when the opposite is in fact the case that Britain owes a wartime debt to Ireland for all our people did for it.
I hope the show is met with an influx of complaints for its biased and inaccurate and biased reporting.0 -
Britain and Ireland were not at war, which I think makes a big difference and what makes you think these guys actually fessed up to being serving Irish soldiers.
Then there is the nationality issue, at this point I'm guessing all of these soldiers would have been entitled to a British passport?
I think you are going a bit OTT on the anti Irishness and war time debt thing. It leads back to the old question of what did Hitler have I'm mind for Ireland had he successfully invaded Britain. You also need to take into consideration the fate of those interned during the emergency, or even Sean Russell.
Statues for some, spending the rest of their lives I'm poverty for others.
At the time, I agree, these men got off lightly, but in hindsight, I don't see a pardon being too much to ask.0 -
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The radio show by the BBC , the state broadcaster in the UK, is inherently anti Irish (whether intentionally or not) and wrongly portrays Ireland in a prejorative way when the opposite is in fact the case that Britain owes a wartime debt to Ireland for all our people did for it.
I hope the show is met with an influx of complaints for its biased and inaccurate and biased reporting.
I am just listening to the BBCR4 programme as I'm writing this, and I don't hear the Anti-Irish thing at all. I really can't see what you're on about? Personally I fing the BBC documentary very educational & enlightening regarding the plight of those Irish who went to fight against the Nazi's.
Anti-the then Irish State Yes, but I really can't hear that inhererently anti-Irish thing that you speak of!0 -
I am just listening to the BBCR4 programme as I'm writing this, and I don't hear the Anti-Irish thing at all. I really can't see what you're on about? Personally I fing the BBC documentary very educational & enlightening regarding the plight of those Irish who went to fight against the Nazi's.
I really can't hear that inhererently anti-Irish thing that you speak of!
There has been a lot of on-line debate on this elsewhere and the portrayal of the Irish State as being anti-British during WWII is a stereotype that many Irish who lived in the UK would find offensive.
John Lydon/John Rotten whose parents are Irish named his book No Irish, No dogs, No blacks
http://www.amazon.com/Rotten-No-Irish-Blacks-Dogs/dp/0312428138
Why would he do that ?
The reporting is not balanced as it implies that they were singled out for unfair treatment in a way that was reprehensible when in fact they were treated leniently.
Anyway, there is a complaints procedure
https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/?reset=#anchor0 -
Well I'm on the side of the Irish men & their families who went out to fight Nazi Germany & the Japanese, and I'm against the disgraceful treatment by the Irish state of those same Irish men on their return to Ireland . . .
No anti-Irishness intended.0 -
jonniebgood1 wrote: »Surely given that these men had good intentions they should be pardoned.
I'd have a problem with the above statement but see no harm in a pardon.
Does anyone know if the Irish born deserters from the British Army who (at the same time) were executed can possibly be pardoned?0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »
I think you are going a bit OTT on the anti Irishness and war time debt thing. It leads back to the old question of what did Hitler have I'm mind for Ireland had he successfully invaded Britain. You also need to take into consideration the fate of those interned during the emergency, or even Sean Russell.
Britain, through her death squads over the centuries and through direct anti-Irish Government policies, had a hand in the deaths of well over 1 million Irish people, do you really think Hitler would have been worse for us?0 -
bobbysands81 wrote: »Britain, through her death squads over the centuries and through direct anti-Irish Government policies, had a hand in the deaths of well over 1 million Irish people, do you really think Hitler would have been worse for us?
Of course not Bobby. Just ask the Romas, the Slavs, the Jews and the Poles, in fact, ask anyone with dark skin or the inability to walk or communicate properly, they had a great time under Hitler.0 -
bobbysands81 wrote: »I'd have a problem with the above statement but see no harm in a pardon.
Does anyone know if the Irish born deserters from the British Army who (at the same time) were executed can possibly be pardoned?
Were there any?
All WWI "Deserters" executed have been pardoned www.shotatdawn.info0 -
Well I'm on the side of the Irish men & their families who went out to fight Nazi Germany & the Japanese, and I'm against the disgraceful treatment by the Irish state of those same Irish men on their return to Ireland . . .
No anti-Irishness intended.
They deserted. There are no two ways about it. The same men would have been executed had they deserted the British army in WWI.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »
These guys were not shot.
It is a fair question, how were deserters from the British Army treated in WWII ?
So if you want to benchmark it how did the British treat their own deserters ?
EDIT - I read somewhere about a 1947 British offer of leniency to deserters where 837 turned themselves in but cant find what happened to them ?0 -
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Oasis_Dublin wrote: »They deserted. There are no two ways about it. The same men would have been executed had they deserted the British army in WWI.
I think you are swimming against the tide there Oasis, ths Irish men who deserted the Irish army did so against the backdrop of an inward looking, isolated neutral Ireland, a neutral & neutered Irish state who should have rowed in behind the Allies 100% against Hitler & Nazi Germany!
Those Irish men who saw the bigger picture left these shores and fought Hitler, they were heroes in my book, and they did the Allied war effort proud, they were true Irish heroes and they should have been treated like heroes on their return to Ireland.
They (and their sons) all deserve a pardon > hurry up Mr Shatter.0
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