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The Black and tans in Ireland

2456

Comments

  • #32
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Was that fella Smyth later shot by the IRA ? I thnk he may have been.

    Yes he was killed by the IRA as a result of that speech. There were also iirc catholics killed in rioting by loyalists after Irish railway workers refused to ship his body by train back to Antrim.


  • #33
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »
    I recall one man saying how when he and the other British army folk would go into a local pub to get a pint they would be served and would be treated respectfully, though he noted he sensed an underlying sense of hostlity from the locals.

    However he said when a Black and Tan would go into the same pub the place would fall silent and the locals would have nothing to do with them.

    Very nasty pieces of work the Black and Tans.
    Don't know if the rest of the brits were as civil as you say. In Guerilla Days in Ireland Tom Barry speaks of the murders, torture and wanton thuggery of the Essex regiment, though he did speak better of the Liverpool regiment and said they were much more capable in fighting than the cowardly scum of the Essex regiment.

    A little bit of my own grandparent's experiences back then. My grandfather and a Grand Uncle were both interned during the Tan War. My grandfather from the hot bed of republicanism Crossmaglen did not like talking about it, he'd just say it was a long time ago. Grand Uncle went on to become an officer in the National/Free State Army, though he passed away before I got to know him. My grandmother worked in a bakery shop in Sligo with the bakery out the back and one day the british army came searching the premises ( often during a so called ' search ' the brits would empty the tills of any money and from pubs take bottles of whiskey etc ). Anyway their was a brit standing beside a barrel of trickle and as they were leaving the brit turned around and kicked the barrel over ! Naturally enough my grandmother and the others were too frightened to say anything, though I'm sure they had a few nice words to say when they had left the area !!!!


  • #34
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    le wrote: »
    dont live in the past
    If you didn't notice it's a History forum. In a History forum people talk about events past ;)


  • #35
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    CDfm wrote: »
    True - but it was their job and it was a colonial army used to conflict. It was explicit about the us and them situation. In other words the army rolled over for the unionists and that was the precedent.



    The army saw itself as a colonial force - but it went off on one. Very arrogant.

    And yet if it had been the other way around, and the curragh munity was on behalf of the republican movement those officers would be hailed as heros, the Fact of the matter was they faced a well trained and well disciplined army which in many cases would have contained friends and family of those officers invloved in the curragh munity. Chruchill did infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally which resulted in thier guns being trained on belfast when they came up the lough


  • #36
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    junder wrote: »
    And yet if it had been the other way around, and the curragh munity was on behalf of the republican movement those officers would be hailed as heros, the Fact of the matter was they faced a well trained and well disciplined army which in many cases would have contained friends and family of those officers invloved in the curragh munity.

    I agree - but the difference was that -these guys had a job to do impartially on behalf of the Government.

    We rely on policemen to enforce the law in their areas. This was the same. Lyndon Johnson used or threatened theb use of the National Guard to enforce equal rights in the USA. The British administration should have been able to do the same.
    Chruchill did infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally which resulted in thier guns being trained on belfast when they came up the lough

    I would like to hear more on this incident.


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  • #37
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    le wrote: »
    dont live in the past

    McArmalite wrote: »
    If you didn't notice it's a History forum. In a History forum people talk about events past ;)

    Isn't it gobsmacking - and depressing - that you have to say this to someone wandering on here and making such absurd remarks???


  • #38
    Simarillion
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭Simarillion


    Lt. Colonel Gerald Gerald Smyth,

    Born 1885 in the Punjab, India. Son the of British High Commisioner (Punjab Region), mother from Banbridge Co.Down.
    Royal Engineers, fought WWI at Ypres and Somme, awarded DSO and French and Belgian Croix de Guerre and later transferred to King's Own Scottish Borderers
    Sent to Ireland (second time, previously stationed in The Curragh) by Maj. General Tudor, and seconded to RIC as Division Commissioner Munster Province

    Made alleged speech at Listowel
    "I wish to make the present situation clear to all ranks. A policeman is perfectly justified in shooting any person seen with arms who does not immediately throw up his hands when ordered. A policeman is perfectly justified in shooting any man whom he has good reason to believe is carrying arms and who does not immediately throw up his arms when ordered. Every proper precaution will be taken at police inquests that no information will be given to Sinn Fein as to the identity of any individual or the movements of the police.

    I wish to make it perfectly clear to all ranks that I will not tolerate reprisals. They bring discredit on the police and I will deal most severely with any Officer or man concerned in them"

    He was murdered in 1920 at the Cork County Club aged 34


    (his brother George was a member the Cairo Gang, and was later shot while attempting to arrest Sean Tracy)

    http://www.bob-sinton.com/smythsofthebann/apx-c.php


  • #39
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    junder wrote: »
    And yet if it had been the other way around, and the curragh munity was on behalf of the republican movement those officers would be hailed as heros,
    What a load of complete tripe, but then you are a unionist and memeber of the orage order*. I rememeber reading in Dan Breen's My Fight for Irish freedom how the british officers leading the Curragh mutiny were all promoted within 12 months of the so called ' mutiny '. Compare that to the treatement of the Connaught Rangers in India when they refused to take orders in protest at british atrocites in Ireland.

    *http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59356393#post59356393
    the Fact of the matter was they faced a well trained and well disciplined army which in many cases would have contained friends and family of those officers invloved in the curragh munity. Chruchill did infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally which resulted in thier guns being trained on belfast when they came up the lough
    Another load of complete tripe. They weren't faced with a " a well trained and well disciplined army " Many of the weapons were actually " old and defective " and " were offered to the belligerents in the Balkans and rejected, and that they are likely to be dangerous to the users " as you can read from the Irish Independents ( no lover of Irish nationalism it should be said ) report of it in the link below and some were even mistakenly delivered to nationalist houses !!! So much for your " well trained and well disciplined army " :rolleyes: I think in my fight for Irish Freedom it's mentioned how the code word for the landing of the arms at Larne was " Gough " after General Gough, see the link ? Not that it was the last time the british army organised gun running to the loyalists.

    http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SU5ELzE5MTQvMDQvMjgjQXIwMDYwOA%3D%3D&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom

    Chruchill did not infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally. If that was the case, how come the RIC and british army did not make ONE single arrest or get ONE single bullet across the north ? He muttered a few words of "concern" in the House of Commons and that was the end of it. No thousands of british soldiers, Tans, Auxilliary's etc been sent over to the northeast with martial Law, internment, executions, house burnings etc like the brits did to nationalist Ireland. Too well we know about british ' peace keeping ' and honesty.


  • #40
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    The issue of the Curragh Mutiny is still a very grey area. The refusal to march against the UVF went beyond those officers who were Irish born. It was more widespread than that and seems to have been a class/privilege/imperial issue more than an ethnic one. But all documents pertaining to the incident have not been made public - or maybe no longer exist.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/prelude/pr06.shtml
    [SIZE=-1]
    "Not surprisingly, given its predominantly privileged background, the officer class in the British army also sympathised with the unionists. Their views were graphically exposed during the ‘Curragh Mutiny’ in 1914. This army barracks located just east of Kildare town, had become Britain’s premier military base in Ireland."    [/SIZE]

    Also the War Office made statements that seemed to contradict the British Cabinet.

    "The War Office stated that ministers had no future intention of using the army to enforce submission to the Home Rule Bill. This assurance may have been given without cabinet authority, as those responsible for issuing it were subsequently obliged to resign.    "

    There was of course an uneven handedness to all of this. No such statement was made to the British Army regarding 1916 - that they could desist from rounding up the "rebels" if they [army personnell] had an Irish background. And how many such concessions were made in the 1918-22 period regarding the British Army and the IRA?


  • #41
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Simarillion wrote: »
    Lt. Colonel Gerald Gerald Smyth,


    He was murdered in 1920 at the Cork County Club aged 34

    I know very little about him - but Banbridge is a favorite place of mine.

    At that time - the republican movement in West Cork made it a sort of free zone. So in that respect he was placed in a highly charged area politically.

    I dont really see anything inflamatory in his speech but I dont imagine someone operating on an open andethical way on behalf of the authorities would have been the most popular of people at all with the republican leadership.They may well have wished to prevent him as a moderate.

    (his brother George was a member the Cairo Gang, and was later shot while attempting to arrest Sean Tracy)

    http://www.bob-sinton.com/smythsofthebann/apx-c.php

    Interesting and the Cairo Gang were intelligence officers.

    Nice to see the Army Biographies - and they are very interesting.


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  • #42
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    CDfm wrote: »
    I agree - but the difference was that -these guys had a job to do impartially on behalf of the Government.

    We rely on policemen to enforce the law in their areas. This was the same. Lyndon Johnson used or threatened theb use of the National Guard to enforce equal rights in the USA. The British administration should have been able to do the same.



    I would like to hear more on this incident.

    the 2 ships the clydevally and other (I forget what it was called) were transfering the weapons in the dark with all lights out as the sqaudron passed the wake nearly suck both ships, if fate hagone the other way the guns would have ended up at the bottem of the sea, further to that the guns were almsot seized in danmark as the danish authorites believed they were destined for a danish home rule crisis.

    Out of interest since when does being unonist make me a member of the orange order Mcarmalite? (why is it armchair soldiers always feel the need to give themselves a war like name such as naming themselves after weapons)


  • #43
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    junder wrote: »
    Out of interest since when does being unonist make me a member of the orange order Mcarmalite? (why is it armchair soldiers always feel the need to give themselves a war like name such as naming themselves after weapons)
    Well according to your post in the link " Frankly being a member of the Apprentice Boys and having many family members in the Orange order ". Sorry for been an unknowning fenian, but is the apprentic boys not basically the same thing as the the orange order ?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...3#post59356393


  • #44
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well according to your post in the link " Frankly being a member of the Apprentice Boys and having many family members in the Orange order ". Sorry for been an unknowning fenian, but is the apprentic boys not basically the same thing as the the orange order ?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...3#post59356393
    no its not


  • #45
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Also one here about Listowel where this famous order was given

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    Here is the order;

    "....If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..."

    June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth
    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont really see anything inflamatory in his speech but I dont imagine someone operating on an open andethical way on behalf of the authorities would have been the most popular of people at all with the republican leadership.They may well have wished to prevent him as a moderate.

    Are you talking about that same speech ?

    You really do not see anything 'inflamatory' in that ? You would consider him a moderate or am I mis reading you ?


  • #46
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Morlar wrote: »
    Are you talking about that same speech ?

    You really do not see anything 'inflamatory' in that ? You would consider him a moderate or am I mis reading you ?

    As I see it there seems to be disagreement over what was said in the speech -are there any authoratative sources.


  • #47
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    CDfm wrote: »
    As I see it there seems to be disagreement over what was said in the speech -are there any authoratative sources.

    Not according to this ;

    http://www.policehistory.com/

    A Garda Síochána Historical Society site - which has this article quoted earlier

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    On June 19 the Republican forces were greatly strengthened in their struggle against the R.I.C. by the mutiny of the police in Listowel barracks. This incident had repercussions far beyond the confines of north Kerry. Indeed, it was an important factor in determining the outcome of the Anglo-Irish war. It was the dilemma in which most of the R.I.C. found themselves. As hostilities intensified they had to regard as their enemies most of the people from whom they had sprung. Consequently, within three months of this highly-publicised event, some 1,100 men resigned from the force. This was a crippling blow to the Black and Tans and a great influx of military, none of whom had the local knowledge or information which was all-important in trying to contain the republican's growing grip on the countryside.

    Constable Lillis, RIC, at rear of Listowel BarracksThe mutiny itself had all the ingredients of high drama. It was triggered off by the visit of ex-war hero, Colonel Gerald Bryce Ferguson Smyth who, on June 3, had been appointed Divisional Police Commissioner for Munster. However, the situation had been building up for some days. On June 17 the police in Listowel were ordered to hand over their barracks to the British military and most of them were transferred to different stations in the district where they were to act as scouts for the troops. The police held a meeting and decided not to obey these orders. The following day the county inspector, Poer O'Shee, came to Listowel and when he tried to force the men to obey fourteen of them threatened to resign.

    Next morning, June 19, Colonel Smyth arrived at Listowel barracks. He was accompanied by the inspector general, General Tudor, a commissioner of police from Dublin Castle, Major Letham, the county inspector, Poer O'Shee, the O.C. of the military stationed at Ballinruddery, Captain Chadwick, and Assistant County Inspector Dobbyn, and it was obvious that the purpose of his visit was to deal with insubordination on June 17.

    When the police had been assembled in the barrack-room he addressed them. He asserted that from then on the crown forces would have to take the offensive and beat the Republicans at its own game. To this end martial law would come into force immediately and by June 21 the police and military would be completely amalgamated. Then, together, police and military would engage in a ruthless pacification programme and if, in the course of it, innocent people were killed he would see to it that no policeman would have to answer for such an eventuality. He concluded by saying that the government wanted their assistance to wipe out the Republicans and that any man who was not prepared to help in doing so ought to leave the job at once.

    Then came the first of a number of dramatic incidents. He approached the constable who stood at the top of the police line and pointing to him asked, 'Are you prepared to co-operate with me?' There was a tense moment or two as the constable, a Protestant from the north of Ireland, paused before replying that Constable Mee would speak for him. Thereupon Constable Jeremiah Mee startled Smyth, by saying, 'By your accent I take it you are an Englishman. You forget you are addressing Irishmen.' Then taking off his cap, belt and bayonet and laying them on the table, he continued: 'These too are English. Take them as a present from me, and to hell with you, you murderer.' Smyth immediately ordered Mee to be arrested. As two army officers moved to take Mee away the rest of the police, prompted by Constable Thomas Hughes, crowded round them and refused to let them move. After a few tense minutes Smyth ordered the officers to desist and together with all the visiting officers entered another room, adjoining the barrack day-room, in order to discuss the situation.

    At this point Mee, on behalf of the police, wrote a note, which all signed, in which the entire group assumed responsibility for Mee's words and actions and indicated that they would resist Mee's arrest even to the point of bloodshed. Then ignoring Smyth, one of them handed the note to the inspector general. Another tense period followed while the officers considered this note. After about fifteen minutes the inspector general emerged from the adjoining room, shook hands with all the policemen and left with the visitors. The police who no longer felt safe in the barracks, held a meeting in the public-house then known as 'T.D. Sullivans' (now John B. Keane's Pub - owned by John B. Keane who wrote 'The Field' on which the movie of the same name was based) and, of the twenty-five of them who had been involved in the incident, fourteen, who were single, decided to resign. However, two of these, John McNamara and Michael Kelly, were asked by Michael Collins, who was taking a personal interest in the entire matter, to stay on and carry out merely ordinary police duties. This they did and the following day, when summoned to appear before a court-martial, they demanded a civil trial instead. Next morning a high-ranking military officer arrived at the barracks and told them that they had been dismissed and ordered them to leave the barracks at once.

    At this stage there was a very important development. John McNamara went to James Crowley, V.S., who later that year became the Sinn Féin representative for north Kerry, and gave him a detailed account of what had happened and a statement, signed by the fourteen constables who resigned, describing the remarks of Colonel Smyth and requesting an official investigation into the incident. Crowley had the entire story printed by Robert I. (Bob) Cuthbertson and motored to Dublin in with it that afternoon, and the full story appeared in the first edition of the Freeman's Journal on the following morning. However, it was seen in good time by the authorities and was suppressed. Subsequently it appeared in the Freeman's Journal of 10 July 1920.


  • #48
    mirror mirror
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭mirror mirror


    after an ambush in town,the black and tans burnt down a shop and hardware.this premises was owned by the parents of a man killed at the battle of the somme.he was a captain in the royal dublin fusiliers and was mentioned in dispatches.....:confused:


  • #49
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    If there is an impartial source with an alternate text I would be interested to read it.

    Taking it that the above text is the result of 14 RIC Constables transcription almost immediately after the fact, and, that the RIC were not ordinarily renowned for their republican sympathies the above seems likely to be reasonably accurate to me.

    Given that it was the announcement of a policy shift (hence the senior figures present) and that (I read this somewhere but do not have the link at the moment and probably would not be able to find it either) written note taking was not permitted for the delivery.


  • #50
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Morlar wrote: »
    If there is an impartial source with an alternate text I would be interested to read it.

    You cant libel the dead so you can write whatever even saying he wanted all prisoners given a bath.

    I dont believe that there is an imparial source.

    Anyway - in 1920 it was fairly obvious the the Home Rule Party days were long gone.They didnt waste much time getting that in the paper.


  • #51
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    CDfm wrote: »
    You cant libel the dead so you can write whatever even saying he wanted all prisoners given a bath.

    I dont believe that there is an imparial source.

    Anyway - in 1920 it was fairly obvious the the Home Rule Party days were long gone.They didnt waste much time getting that in the paper.
    Are you trying to troll Morlar or what ? I would have thought it very obvious for the RIC men to resign on the spot the speech must have been very extreme.


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  • #52
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Are you trying to troll Morlar or what ? I would have thought it very obvious for the RIC men to resign on the spot the speech must have been very extreme.

    McA the guys were between a rock and a hard place.

    They sold their story to the Freemans Journal.

    If the republicans could kill Colenel Smyth -these guys lived in the area and were further down the foodchain. Has it occured to you that they saw the way the wind was blowing and looked out for their own interests. ??


  • #53
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    CDfm wrote: »
    McA the guys were between a rock and a hard place.

    They sold their story to the Freemans Journal.

    If the republicans could kill Colenel Smyth -these guys lived in the area and were further down the foodchain. Has it occured to you that they saw the way the wind was blowing and looked out for their own interests. ??

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


  • #54
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Here is some lines from On Another Man's Wound on the british asssault on the people of Mallow which will give a good indication of the terror people were under from the british army. And I say the british army and not the Tans, as wanton thuggery and murder was not the exclusive practice of the Tans. Interestingly also how the RIC had the humanity and indeed spark of nationalism to try and help the people in distress.

    " In the night the soldiers form Buttevant and Fermoy had come in lorries, equiped with sprays and incendiary devices. The local Lancers joined them; they had burnt the creamery*, the second largest in the South of the country, the Town Hall and ten houses. A volunteer fire brigade had confined the flames although they had been fired upon repeatedly. The police from the barracks had given shelter to some women and children who had fled from their homes; an expectant mother and a woman, who had spent the night in a graveyard, died of exposure. "

    Here he talks about the smaller villages where they were less used to the brits than the bigger towns " Remote from a town, seldom visited, a raid here meant terror. Houses ransacked, women and children shouted at, men searched and interrogated, the amount of violence to be used depending on the individual officer in charge "........" For long hours the people had to keep their hands up, sometimes they had to kneel or to sing God save the King. Tans or Auxillary's had to teach them the words. People had been flogged with whips, belt-buckles and canes."


    * Creamery's were a particuliar target of the brits as they were mainly local enterprises run on co operative lines.


  • #55
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McA my grandfather was a member of the West Cork Brigade and I know a bit about it.They operated on basis of guerilla warefare.

    One of my fathers aunts was a victim in Dublin.

    No matter what version you read you will get edits as history tends to be wriiten by the victors.

    My grandfather certainly had lots of reservations about aspects he was involved in and would not talk about them.

    For that matter we never hear about civilian victims of the war of independence but accept that one of the reasons Pearce surrendered was because of civilian casualties, also we do not know of the levels of civilian casualties pre-treaty and post treaty or the amounts of property destroyed.

    I have seen estimates that total casulties were 1500 during the War of Independence of which you had 200 civilians. Estimates of 4000 during the civil war -with no estimates for civilian casualties or details of republican reprisals following independence or damage to property etc.

    So, McArmalite,I imagine that details are presented in a very biased way.


  • #56
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    Morlar wrote: »
    Not according to this ;

    http://www.policehistory.com/

    A Garda Síochána Historical Society site - which has this article quoted earlier

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    On June 19 the Republican forces were greatly strengthened in their struggle against the R.I.C. by the mutiny of the police in Listowel barracks. This incident had repercussions far beyond the confines of north Kerry. Indeed, it was an important factor in determining the outcome of the Anglo-Irish war. It was the dilemma in which most of the R.I.C. found themselves. As hostilities intensified they had to regard as their enemies most of the people from whom they had sprung. Consequently, within three months of this highly-publicised event, some 1,100 men resigned from the force. This was a crippling blow to the Black and Tans and a great influx of military, none of whom had the local knowledge or information which was all-important in trying to contain the republican's growing grip on the countryside.

    Constable Lillis, RIC, at rear of Listowel BarracksThe mutiny itself had all the ingredients of high drama. It was triggered off by the visit of ex-war hero, Colonel Gerald Bryce Ferguson Smyth who, on June 3, had been appointed Divisional Police Commissioner for Munster. However, the situation had been building up for some days. On June 17 the police in Listowel were ordered to hand over their barracks to the British military and most of them were transferred to different stations in the district where they were to act as scouts for the troops. The police held a meeting and decided not to obey these orders. The following day the county inspector, Poer O'Shee, came to Listowel and when he tried to force the men to obey fourteen of them threatened to resign.

    Next morning, June 19, Colonel Smyth arrived at Listowel barracks. He was accompanied by the inspector general, General Tudor, a commissioner of police from Dublin Castle, Major Letham, the county inspector, Poer O'Shee, the O.C. of the military stationed at Ballinruddery, Captain Chadwick, and Assistant County Inspector Dobbyn, and it was obvious that the purpose of his visit was to deal with insubordination on June 17.

    When the police had been assembled in the barrack-room he addressed them. He asserted that from then on the crown forces would have to take the offensive and beat the Republicans at its own game. To this end martial law would come into force immediately and by June 21 the police and military would be completely amalgamated. Then, together, police and military would engage in a ruthless pacification programme and if, in the course of it, innocent people were killed he would see to it that no policeman would have to answer for such an eventuality. He concluded by saying that the government wanted their assistance to wipe out the Republicans and that any man who was not prepared to help in doing so ought to leave the job at once.

    Then came the first of a number of dramatic incidents. He approached the constable who stood at the top of the police line and pointing to him asked, 'Are you prepared to co-operate with me?' There was a tense moment or two as the constable, a Protestant from the north of Ireland, paused before replying that Constable Mee would speak for him. Thereupon Constable Jeremiah Mee startled Smyth, by saying, 'By your accent I take it you are an Englishman. You forget you are addressing Irishmen.' Then taking off his cap, belt and bayonet and laying them on the table, he continued: 'These too are English. Take them as a present from me, and to hell with you, you murderer.' Smyth immediately ordered Mee to be arrested. As two army officers moved to take Mee away the rest of the police, prompted by Constable Thomas Hughes, crowded round them and refused to let them move. After a few tense minutes Smyth ordered the officers to desist and together with all the visiting officers entered another room, adjoining the barrack day-room, in order to discuss the situation.

    At this point Mee, on behalf of the police, wrote a note, which all signed, in which the entire group assumed responsibility for Mee's words and actions and indicated that they would resist Mee's arrest even to the point of bloodshed. Then ignoring Smyth, one of them handed the note to the inspector general. Another tense period followed while the officers considered this note. After about fifteen minutes the inspector general emerged from the adjoining room, shook hands with all the policemen and left with the visitors. The police who no longer felt safe in the barracks, held a meeting in the public-house then known as 'T.D. Sullivans' (now John B. Keane's Pub - owned by John B. Keane who wrote 'The Field' on which the movie of the same name was based) and, of the twenty-five of them who had been involved in the incident, fourteen, who were single, decided to resign. However, two of these, John McNamara and Michael Kelly, were asked by Michael Collins, who was taking a personal interest in the entire matter, to stay on and carry out merely ordinary police duties. This they did and the following day, when summoned to appear before a court-martial, they demanded a civil trial instead. Next morning a high-ranking military officer arrived at the barracks and told them that they had been dismissed and ordered them to leave the barracks at once.

    At this stage there was a very important development. John McNamara went to James Crowley, V.S., who later that year became the Sinn Féin representative for north Kerry, and gave him a detailed account of what had happened and a statement, signed by the fourteen constables who resigned, describing the remarks of Colonel Smyth and requesting an official investigation into the incident. Crowley had the entire story printed by Robert I. (Bob) Cuthbertson and motored to Dublin in with it that afternoon, and the full story appeared in the first edition of the Freeman's Journal on the following morning. However, it was seen in good time by the authorities and was suppressed. Subsequently it appeared in the Freeman's Journal of 10 July 1920.

    Cheers for that piece of nugget. There is a plaque in the town centre in Glenamaddy, Co . Galway dedicated to Jermiah Mee. He was from that area and was one of those RIC men who resigned despite threats on his life in anger (by the brits) over the British treatment of the Irish during the Tan War. Few more RIC men were very important to local IRA groups with regard to intelligence and tip offs on raids etc, people such as Constable William Potter (he was accidently/mistakingly killed during an IRA ambush) and Sgt _ Galligan of Kiltoom Roscommon

    That maybe worth a different thread - RIC men turned IRA informers, the life of an RIC man and his family in light of regular boycott by the locals etc during the war


  • #57
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    walrusgumble wrote: »
    Cheers for that piece of nugget. There is a plaque in the town centre in Glenamaddy, Co . Galway dedicated to Jermiah Mee. He was from that area and was one of those RIC men who resigned despite threats on his life in anger (by the brits) over the British treatment of the Irish during the Tan War. Few more RIC men were very important to local IRA groups with regard to intelligence and tip offs on raids etc, people such as Constable William Potter (he was accidently/mistakingly killed during an IRA ambush) and Sgt _ Galligan of Kiltoom Roscommon

    That maybe worth a different thread - RIC men turned IRA informers, the life of an RIC man and his family in light of regular boycott by the locals etc during the war
    so were those RIC men who turned IRA informers heros or traitors ?


  • #58
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    junder wrote: »
    so were those RIC men who turned IRA informers heros or traitors ?

    I'd say they were heroes to the unarmed people they refused to shoot & to the innocent families they refused to put into the gutter :)

    I think they were overlooked in Irish history, at a time when it must have been an incomparably more difficult decision to give up your career & livelihood they made a personal sacrifice.

    Those who refused and were dismissed and those who resigned - either way they refused on a moral principle. I think it proves that republican propaganda about the RIC is not always correct.

    Even the ones who remained on in order to pass information to Collins' intelligence squad - I believe they were turned to republicanism by the british establishment - evidenced by the fact that until that point they were not involved with the IRA.

    I don't for a second buy the 'argument' that there is no 'impartial' evidence of a shift in policy behind the Smyth order. Nor do I believe that the 14 RIC constables who signed the document outlining the smyth order were inaccurate or not to be trusted. If you can find an alternate version of the Smyth order signed by 15 RIC constables who were there that argument may have some substance. There was a shift and on that basis their refusal puts them in the good books in my view.


  • #59
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Morlar wrote: »
    I'd say they were heroes to the unarmed people they refused to shoot & to the innocent families they refused to put into the gutter :)

    I think they were overlooked in Irish history, at a time when it must have been an incomparably more difficult decision to give up your career & livelihood they made a personal sacrifice.

    Those who refused and were dismissed and those who resigned - either way they refused on a moral principle. I think it proves that republican propaganda about the RIC is not always correct.

    Morlar - the Republicans were not choirboys and the Ballyseedy massacre when 9 guys were taken from the Barracks during the Civil War and tied around a landmine which was detonated and the survivors machine gunned.

    So I am suggesting that their motives wrent always pure -they may also have been fear based.

    Now I am from the south from the republican tradition.


  • #60
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    CDfm wrote: »
    Morlar - the Republicans were not choirboys

    Except no one has said that they were.
    CDfm wrote: »
    and the Ballyseedy massacre when 9 guys were taken from the Barracks during the Civil War and tied around a landmine which was detonated and the survivors machine gunned.

    That was the Civil war. Not the Black and Tans/Auxilliaries/RIC throughout the War of Independence which is what we are discussing here.
    CDfm wrote: »
    So I am suggesting that their motives wrent always pure -they may also have been fear based.

    You are questioning the motives of the RIC not republicans. In particular you have tried to repeatedly throw doubt on the accuracy of the famous Smyth order.

    Saying that the RIC men who signed the document (which outlined the contents of the Smyth order) are not to be trusted, their motives were fear etc but you are not presenting any kind of evidence to that. They had more to fear from the British establishment than from fellow Irishmen - ie republicans. This makes their signing of the document and their stand (ie their refusal to comply which led to their dismissal or resignation) all the more noteworthy. If you do not accept the truth of the Smyth order perhaps you can provide an alternate text - one which - as mentioned more than 14 constables agree was accurate as the one I presented and the 14 constables agreed was accurate (& the one accepted outside of revisionist unionist circles) is the one I quoted above.


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  • #61
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    walrusgumble wrote: »
    Cheers for that piece of nugget. There is a plaque in the town centre in Glenamaddy, Co . Galway dedicated to Jermiah Mee. He was from that area and was one of those RIC men who resigned despite threats on his life in anger (by the brits) over the British treatment of the Irish during the Tan War. Few more RIC men were very important to local IRA groups with regard to intelligence and tip offs on raids etc, people such as Constable William Potter (he was accidently/mistakingly killed during an IRA ambush) and Sgt _ Galligan of Kiltoom Roscommon

    That maybe worth a different thread - RIC men turned IRA informers, the life of an RIC man and his family in light of regular boycott by the locals etc during the war

    As an FYI there is another plaque on the wall of Listowel Garda Station to the RIC men too, I have seen pictures of it but dont have a link at the moment.


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