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Metal detectors in Ireland: yes or no?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I would just like to point out as a regular MDer that only objects over 200 years old are considered of archeological importance,
    Not true, but the confusion is understandable.
    The term ‘monument’ is (under the Act) a
    broad one including, in effect, all man-made
    structures of whatever form or date except
    buildings habitually used for ecclesiastical
    purposes. It must be emphasised that the
    scope of the National Monuments Acts is not
    restricted to pre-1700 AD monuments.
    The
    only provision regarding that date is that all
    monuments in existence before 1700 AD are
    automatically considered to be historic
    monuments within the meaning of the Acts.
    http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000154522

    It is a common misconception that if an artefact is less than X number of years old, it is not archaeology.
    Archaeology is the study of human history through the study of physical remains. Technically, these remains only need to be from the past - no matter how recent, to be archaeological.
    However, their archaeological significance is determined by the scope and subject matter of the enquiry, and the parameters are determined by the archaeologist/s engaged to carry out the study.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 Debon


    hi was in banna beach today in lovely sunshine ,a woman and her child were having a lovely time with a metal detector combing the beach,returned home to see where i could buy one, i am now led to believe this is a criminal offence with3 years in jail and and a massive fine,what the **** is goin on in this country ,can there possibly be any more red tape and rules and regulations ,no wonder people are leaving the place.i understand and agree historic sites are a no go,but surely people can get out and about on a beach or across a field where u have prior permission from land owner!!! :mad::mad::mad:


    Most of that is incorrect, don't be scared off by all this "grey area" legal stuff. There are plentyy of places to LEGALLY purchase and LEGALLY own a metal detetor. If, on the other hand, you are using your detector in a prohibited area and or are using your detector with the specific intent of locating objects of archaeological interest, then you are breaking the law and deserve to be arrested and your equipment confiscated.

    Contact these guys and they will explain

    www.amdai.weebly.com

    they are the association in Ireland


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Debon wrote: »
    Most of that is incorrect, don't be scared off by all this "grey area" legal stuff. There are plentyy of places to LEGALLY purchase and LEGALLY own a metal detetor. If, on the other hand, you are using your detector in a prohibited area and or are using your detector with the specific intent of locating objects of archaeological interest, then you are breaking the law and deserve to be arrested and your equipment confiscated.

    Contact these guys and they will explain

    www.amdai.weebly.com

    they are the association in Ireland

    Metal Detecting to look for archaeological objects in Ireland is illegal without an archaeological excavation licence.

    The sale of metal detectors in Ireland for use in searching for archaeological objects is illegal.

    There are no if's or but's. There is no grey area with regard to this issue.



    National Monuments Act 1987 Section 2

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/...rint.html#sec2

    2.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section a person shall not—

    (a) use or be in possession of a detection device—

    (i) in, or at the site of, a monument of which the Commissioners or a local authority are the owners or guardians or in respect of which a preservation order is in force or which stands registered in the Register, or

    (ii) in an archaeological area that stands registered in the Register, or

    (iii) in a restricted area,

    or

    (b) use, at a place other than a place specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, a detection device for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects, or

    (c) promote, whether by advertising or otherwise, the sale or use of detection devices for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.



    Ireland is not the only country that has this policy re. metal detectors
    http://www.ncmd.co.uk/law.html



    There is a very long thread on the issue in the Archaeology forum with lots of detailed posts explaining the logic underpinning this policy.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055672868


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 Debon


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    Metal Detecting to look for archaeological objects in Ireland is illegal without an archaeological excavation licence.

    The sale of metal detectors in Ireland for use in searching for archaeological objects is illegal.

    There are no if's or but's. There is no grey area with regard to this issue.



    Absolutely correct, and i am glad to see that someone does not try to make "grey" what is actually "black & white" , the sale or use of metal detectors for the detection of archaeological objects is, and rightly so, illegal. The sale of and use for the detection of anything else , is legal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Would it be legal for me to order a metal detector on Amazon.co.uk and have it posted to Ireland?

    EDIT: Amazon wont post a metal detector to Ireland.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Debon wrote: »
    Absolutely correct, and i am glad to see that someone does not try to make "grey" what is actually "black & white" , the sale or use of metal detectors for the detection of archaeological objects is, and rightly so, illegal. The sale of and use for the detection of anything else , is legal.
    Not quite.
    'Anything else' - is very much a grey area, and very much stacked against the treasure hunter.
    In essence, anything which is, or might be of archaeological interest is an archaeological object.
    According to the definition below: if someone searched for a coin dropped by Charles Haughey, using a metal detector - they would be guilty of an offence under the act.
    the expression “archaeological object” means any chattel whether in a manufactured or partly manufactured or an unmanufactured state which by reason of the archaeological interest attaching thereto or of its association with any Irish historical event or person has a value substantially greater than its intrinsic (including artistic) value, and the said expression includes ancient human and animal remains and does not include treasure trove in which the rights of the State have not been waived.
    - From the principal and still operative, National Monuments Act 1930
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1930/en/act/pub/0002/index.html


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 Debon


    slowburner wrote: »
    Not quite.
    'Anything else' - is very much a grey area, and very much stacked against the treasure hunter.
    In essence, anything which is, or might be of archaeological interest is an archaeological object.
    According to the definition below: if someone searched for a coin dropped by Charles Haughey, using a metal detector - they would be guilty of an offence under the act.

    - From the principal and still operative, National Monuments Act 1930
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1930/en/act/pub/0002/index.html

    No, it is still as perfectly black and white, An Archaeological object is exactly that, irrespective of its age. To use a detection device for the detection of archaeological objects is illegal, detection of ANYTHING else is permitted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Debon wrote: »
    No, it is still as perfectly black and white, An Archaeological object is exactly that, irrespective of its age. To use a detection device for the detection of archaeological objects is illegal, detection of ANYTHING else is permitted.

    True, but i think you have to prove you weren't searching for archaeological objects, which is nearly impossible to prove :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Debon wrote: »
    No, it is still as perfectly black and white, An Archaeological object is exactly that, irrespective of its age. To use a detection device for the detection of archaeological objects is illegal, detection of ANYTHING else is permitted.

    I think the grey area is that you wouldnt know whether its of archaeological interest before you dig it up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 Debon


    True, but i think you have to prove you weren't searching for archaeological objects, which is nearly impossible to prove :o

    No, Again that is a bit of an urban myth, but has some connection with the legality. If a person is found ON OR NEAR a protected or listed area using a detection device, then they would have to prove that they were not intentionally using the device for the purpose of detecting archaeological objects, and that would be difficult. That is logical. But in your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc. you would not. it would be illogical, The burden of proof would be with the prosecutor and that would be equally impossible to prove.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Debon wrote: »
    No, Again that is a bit of an urban myth, but has some connection with the legality. If a person is found ON OR NEAR a protected or listed area using a detection device, then they would have to prove that they were not intentionally using the device for the purpose of detecting archaeological objects, and that would be difficult. That is logical. But in your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc. you would not. it would be illogical, The burden of proof would be with the prosecutor and that would be equally impossible to prove.
    The fact that it might be 'your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc.' does not preclude the finds from being archaeological objects - as per the definition of the 1930 Act.
    It follows therefore, that wherever there is the possibility of an archaeological object being found, a metal detector may not be used.
    Archaeological objects can, in theory, be found anywhere.
    Again, it is illegal to use metal detectors for the purpose of finding archaeological objects.
    If you search for archaeological objects with a metal detector, anywhere, you are breaking the law.

    Are you 100% certain that the onus of proof is on the prosecutor?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 Debon


    slowburner wrote: »
    The fact that it might be 'your own back garden or anywhere else, beach, farm, etc.' does not preclude the finds from being archaeological objects - as per the definition of the 1930 Act.
    It follows therefore, that wherever there is the possibility of an archaeological object being found, a metal detector may not be used.
    Archaeological objects can, in theory, be found anywhere.
    Again, it is illegal to use metal detectors for the purpose of finding archaeological objects.
    If you search for archaeological objects with a metal detector, anywhere, you are breaking the law.

    Are you 100% certain that the onus of proof is on the prosecutor?

    the finds would be identified as having archaeological importance AFTER the find . Don't get me wrong, i don't encourage anyone to purposely go out and seek archaeological objects, these scenes are in my opinion exactly the same as a crime scene, forensic investigation will reveal a lot of important information and any interference should be avoided and left to the professionals. However, to instil a fear in people that if thy were to find an archaeological object that they are somehow a thief, or criminal is not at all acceptable either lawfully or ethically. Your reference above that a metal detector is illegal to use whenever their is a possibility of an archaeological object being found is absolutely incorrect, In the course of my day to day work, i am supplied with a metal detector by my employers this is how i know so much about this subject, i got my employers to find out as i was unsure about using it. Therefore i am 100% sure as to the burden of proof.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Debon wrote: »
    the finds would be identified as having archaeological importance AFTER the find .
    In these cases, a metal detector has been used to unearth archaeological objects and an offence has been committed.
    Don't get me wrong, i don't encourage anyone to purposely go out and seek archaeological objects, these scenes are in my opinion exactly the same as a crime scene, forensic investigation will reveal a lot of important information and any interference should be avoided and left to the professionals. However, to instil a fear in people that if thy were to find an archaeological object that they are somehow a thief, or criminal is not at all acceptable either lawfully or ethically. Your reference above that a metal detector is illegal to use whenever their is a possibility of an archaeological object being found is absolutely incorrect,
    This statement is completely and absolutely untrue. If it was true, then metal detectors could be used anywhere, including national monuments.
    You need to withdraw the statement to avoid the possibility of misinforming future readers.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 Debon


    slowburner wrote: »
    In these cases, a metal detector has been used to unearth archaeological objects and an offence has been committed.
    This statement is completely and absolutely untrue. If it was true, then metal detectors could be used anywhere, including national monuments.
    You need to withdraw the statement to avoid the possibility of misinforming future readers.

    As i said earlier, as part of my employment i use metal detection devices on a daily basis, it is legal to use, but not just anywhere, the only exception is national monuments and other areas specified in the act. I am not misinforming anyone here, the law is black and white, i think there are some people interprotating it themselves without any legal advice and posting messages on boards. I have never come across anything of archaeological interest whilst performing my duties but have been assured that if i did i would NOT have commited any offence as it was unintentional.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    There has been a thread on this in the Archaeology forum that has been going in circles for well over a year now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    <<--snipped SPAM post-->> Mod

    :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭JCabot


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Would it be legal for me to order a metal detector on Amazon.co.uk and have it posted to Ireland?

    EDIT: Amazon wont post a metal detector to Ireland.

    Everyone is totally confused about the use of metal detectors within Ireland. They are legal to purchase and use but not on known heritage sites. Simple so you can use them on a beach no problem.

    Why purchase one on amazon when one of the biggest metal detector manufactors is based in Cork. Minelab in Bandon.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    if you have Joe Soap digging up an ancient site he can also destroy more than he discovers.


    that is the problem witgh metal detectors. Better leave it it trained archeologists


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    JCabot wrote: »
    Everyone is totally confused about the use of metal detectors within Ireland. They are legal to purchase and use but not on known heritage sites. Simple so you can use them on a beach no problem.

    Why purchase one on amazon when one of the biggest metal detector manufactors is based in Cork. Minelab in Bandon.
    It is illegal to use metal detectors to search for archaeological objects, anywhere on this island, and that includes beaches and your own back garden.
    If you use a metal detector, the onus is on you to prove that you were not using the device to search for archaeological objects, and that is next to impossible.

    Those who feel they have a right to use a metal detector may well be confused because they seem to be unable or unwilling, to accept the law.
    The law is very clear, if you want to use a metal detector, you either need a license or you need to prove that you were not searching for archaeological objects.


    See this post for further information.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    JCabot wrote: »
    Why purchase one on amazon when one of the biggest metal detector manufactors is based in Cork. Minelab in Bandon.

    :eek:

    Thats funny.

    I dont think Amazon.co.uk will ship MD's to ireland will they?


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭JCabot


    slowburner wrote: »
    It is illegal to use metal detectors to search for archaeological objects, anywhere on this island, and that includes beaches and your own back garden.
    If you use a metal detector, the onus is on you to prove that you were not using the device to search for archaeological objects, and that is next to impossible.

    Those who feel they have a right to use a metal detector may well be confused because they seem to be unable or unwilling, to accept the law.
    The law is very clear, if you want to use a metal detector, you either need a license or you need to prove that you were not searching for archaeological objects.


    See this post for further information.

    There no need to draw conculsions about someones character based on a interpretation of law. The lady Mary C who signed that letter is not a representitave of the law and what she writes is not clear. The key word is to "search for archaeological objects" in Ireland. So as long as you use a metal detector outside known archaelogical site without intention to search for such objects its ok.

    No-where is it written in Irish law that it is a requirement to prove that you were not searching for archaeological objects. I can undersatnd needing to prove this if found on a known archaelogical site but not in a location outside that has no known historical interest.

    As for the sale of these units if its totally illegal why have the garda not closed the Cork based Minelad manufacturing company down.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    The lady who issued the letter is a senior official in the National Museum. Until she is contradicted by someone of equal authority I believe her.

    Many who used detectors are hoping to find something valuable. They may disturb the site and destroy archeological evidence which has been undisturbed for many centuries


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    JCabot,
    Ill informed legal opinions are risky things to commit to print in the public domain.
    Extracts from the relevant acts are below.
    These acts are still very much in force.
    (6) Where in a prosecution for an offence under this section it is proved that a detection device was being used, it shall be presumed until the contrary is proved that the device was being used for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0017/sec0002.html#sec2


    The following section is also pertinent.
    26.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person...to dig or excavate in or under any land (whether with or without removing the surface of the land) for the purpose of searching generally for archaeological objects or of searching for, exposing or examining any particular structure or thing of archaeological interest known or believed to be in or under such land or for any other archaeological purpose.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1930/en/act/pub/0002/sec0026.html#sec26


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭JCabot


    Exactly the law relates to Restrictions on use of detection devices. Subject to the provisions of this section a person shall not—use or be in possession of a detection device in, or at the site of, a monument of which the Commissioners or a local authority are the owners or guardians or in respect of which a preservation order is in force or which stands registered in the Register, or in an archaeological area that stands registered in the Register, or in a restricted area at a place other than a place specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection and a detection device for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.

    So totally legal if not used in any of the above mentioned sites and totally legal if used not in the persuit of archaelogical items. I have checked this out with a solictor and my local garda station.

    The lady who issued the letter in the National Museum did not say it was totally illegal she said it was illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects in Ireland and also illegal to dig or excavate a archaeological object Thats like saying its totally illegal to smoke because the barman in your local pub said so when he meant it was illegal within his bar and other bars like his.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    (6) Where in a prosecution for an offence under this section it is proved that a detection device was being used, it shall be presumed until the contrary is proved that the device was being used for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects.
    Which part of this do you not understand?

    I have no desire to take part in a conversation where the law is being blatantly misinterpreted, misrepresented, and distorted.
    You can only bang your head against a brick wall for so long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭JCabot


    slowburner wrote: »
    Which part of this do you not understand?

    I have no desire to take part in a conversation where the law is being blatantly misinterpreted, misrepresented, and distorted.

    I totally understand and you are over reacting .
    • How is the law being blatantly misinterpreted when I have the backing of a solictor who has reviewed the National Monuments Act and I have also spoken to the garda.
    • Again the quotation stated is in relation to proving purpose after commiting an offence. Yet this offence is related to use on illegal sites and I can totally understand to be found on a historical site with a detector being presumed up to no good.
    • In fact to quote excerpts from the National Monuments out of contects is distorting the law.
    Exactly you can only bang your head against a brick wall for so long. If you want advice on this act don't take my word for it, print it off and talk to someone who understands law, not someone who works in a musume whos expertises is archaeology or a unknown fourm posters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Folks this isn't a legal forum, if you want to discuss the legal position of Metal detectors take it there. I'm locking this thread.

    -Mod


This discussion has been closed.
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