Planning Retention - What actually happens?

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 4:45pm #1

Hi Folks,

[Long Backstory]

A friend of mine built an extension about 5 years ago. They did a rear extension, but went oversized on it, in a funny shape (effectively, they did a fairly generic 'rectangle on the back of the house' extension, but they also added a long room onto it, going away from the house (which makes the extension an L shape, of sorts) which features a somewhat narrow home gym and bathroom.

They're looking to sell the house now, and we were talking about this issue. They now have to get retention permission.

This interests me, as I also have an extension that, although it's not oversized, it does go down the side of my house, so I know I'll have to face the Council Planners at some point in the next decade myself.

Though in both our cases, the extensions aren't overlooking anyone, impeding on anyone, no one's complained or even notice they're there.

[Actual Question]

So I was wondering if anyone can tell me, what actually happens when you get in touch with the Council about retention? Do they care about this kind of stuff (I'd assume people building houses on sites, etc. is more noteworthy to them than smaller stuff like this?).

Do you just email them a few pictures of what you've done, a drone shot or two, and they email back saying you're grand or tear it down? Or do they call out for a cup of tea and start putting holes in walls and wanting to dig foundations and lift off the roof and etc. etc. (you get the idea)?

I'm just curious as to how much hassle is involved. I also assume it's common sense to wait until the 7 years have elapsed, since it was built, so they can't tell you knock it?

Cheers folks

Gumbo · 27-11-2020 9:46pm

You lodge a planning retention application in the same way as you’d lodge a normal planning application.

Only this time your asking can you retain the works as completed.

They may say yes, they may say no or they may say yes with some conditions to alter it slightly.

The same docs are required, newspaper ad, site notice, Suite of drawings outlining the works.

App fee is €102 as opposed to €34 and you forgo your right for development contributions exemptions. So effectively the first 40 square meters that would have been exempt from Contributions if you lodged planning before the works, will be removed and you’ll have to pay the contribution in full.

Recently had an application like this in Dublin.

Your comment about the 7 years doesnt carry any weight unfortunately. The council cannot issue enforcement proceedings but you also cannot obtain a clean planning title to facilitate a sale and you cannot lodge any other applications for extensions or sheds etc unless to regularize the extension.

Also had a similar job to this effect in Cabra last year.

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 10:05pm

Thank you for the reply, Gumbo.

Gumbo wrote: »

you’ll have to pay the contribution in full.

Could I ask you what this means, in particular? Presumably a fee, but Mr. Google is not assisting in terms of how much such a fee would be.

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 10:40pm

Also, may I ask, Gumbo (or indeed anyone who may be familiar), I was fairly sure (and still kind of am, to be honest) that my extension would not need permission.

On my council's site, it says that I need planning for...

"Putting on an extension so as to bring the building or any part of the building forward of the front wall of the building on either side. Example, putting a bay window onto the front of a house which projects beyond the front wall of the adjoining house – is not exempted development"

My side extension (which again, is not visible from the street, and the entirety of the extension is less than 40sq/m, still have 25sq/m of garden space etc) stops approximately 2 meters/6 foot from the front of the house. I had assumed this would make it exempt from planning being required?

Gumbo · 27-11-2020 10:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you for the reply, Gumbo.

Could I ask you what this means, in particular? Presumably a fee, but Mr. Google is not assisting in terms of how much such a fee would be.

If you apply for planning permission for a 45 square meter extension tomorrow.
Let’s say it’s granted.

You have to pay contributions.
The first 40 is exempt. So you pay for the additional 5 Sq. M. (5x€86).
In a Retention application, you don’t get the benefit of the first 40 being exempt so if you built a 45m extension and then you apply for retention then your contributions if granted sill be €86x45.

This assumes your in Dublin City or adjust the € figure to your specific county. Some may not have any.

Gumbo · 27-11-2020 10:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, may I ask, Gumbo (or indeed anyone who may be familiar), I was fairly sure (and still kind of am, to be honest) that my extension would not need permission.

On my council's site, it says that I need planning for...

"Putting on an extension so as to bring the building or any part of the building forward of the front wall of the building on either side. Example, putting a bay window onto the front of a house which projects beyond the front wall of the adjoining house – is not exempted development"

My side extension (which again, is not visible from the street, and the entirety of the extension is less than 40sq/m, still have 25sq/m of garden space etc) stops approximately 2 meters/6 foot from the front of the house. I had assumed this would make it exempt from planning being required?

No extension to the side is exempt unless it’s a shed or garage or similar structure. Visible from the street is irrelevant.

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 11:08pm

Gumbo wrote: »

If you apply for planning permission for a 45 square meter extension tomorrow.
Let’s say it’s granted.

You have to pay contributions.
The first 40 is exempt. So you pay for the additional 5 Sq. M. (5x€86).
In a Retention application, you don’t get the benefit of the first 40 being exempt so if you built a 45m extension and then you apply for retention then your contributions if granted sill be €86x45.

This assumes your in Dublin City or adjust the € figure to your specific county. Some may not have any.

I'm in Louth - Can you tell me what the € figure is for my County? I am struggling to find anything online at all.

I can find a 2016 document, but it doesn't really give any figures that I can see that relate to me. It seems to be geared more towards actual property developers building multiple houses, etc.

EDIT: FOUND IT. Post below.

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 11:09pm

Gumbo wrote: »

No extension to the side is exempt unless it’s a shed or garage or similar structure. Visible from the street is irrelevant.

See, I thought it was exempt on the basis of it not going beyond the front of the building, and not affecting the image/aesthetic.

Silly me. :rolleyes:

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 11:17pm

I seem to have found it:

CLASSES OF DEVELOPMENT – CALCULATION OF FEES PAYABLE
2. Extensions / Garages /Sheds and other works within the curtilage of a dwelling
Fee: €34
Retention: €102 or €2.50 per sq. metre of floor space for which permission is sought. whichever is greater.

http://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Planning/Forms/Louth_County_Council/Appropriate-Fee-See-attached-list-of-fees-payable.doc

So am I reading it right in thinking that it will effectively cost me €136 to find out if they'll give me the thumbs up and leave me be? or tell me to demolish (none of my neighbours even know the extension on the side exists, and as i say earlier, it's hidden away, so i can't see the CoCo having any real issue with it?)

Gumbo · 27-11-2020 11:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I seem to have found it:

CLASSES OF DEVELOPMENT – CALCULATION OF FEES PAYABLE
2. Extensions / Garages /Sheds and other works within the curtilage of a dwelling
Fee: €34
Retention: €102 or €2.50 per sq. metre of floor space for which permission is sought. whichever is greater.

http://www.louthcoco.ie/en/Services/Planning/Forms/Louth_County_Council/Appropriate-Fee-See-attached-list-of-fees-payable.doc

So am I reading it right in thinking that it will effectively cost me €136 to find out if they'll give me the thumbs up and leave me be? or tell me to demolish (none of my neighbours even know the extension on the side exists, and as i say earlier, it's hidden away, so i can't see the CoCo having any real issue with it?)

You may have no problem at all. May need the application to regularize it. Can’t comment 100%
Without seeing the site specifics.

The fees you posted above are the application fees, not the contribution fees.
It will cost you more to lodge a retention application.

The fee is €102. You then have a newspaper notice to place, OSi Maps to purchase and drawings to be prepared for submission. Site notice to erect. The normal Planning stuff.

Louth CC Development Levies - https://www.louthcoco.ie/en/services/planning/development_contribution_schemes_bonds/adopted-19-09-2016-louth-development-contribution-scheme-2016.pdf

Domestic extensions look to be exempt.

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 11:51pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Domestic extensions look to be exempt.

That's what i was thinking from skimming through the forms, but I thought that seemed too good to be true.

[Deleted User] · 27-11-2020 11:56pm

Can I ask you Gumbo - Do you know, do the planning lads actually call out to look at the extension, or is it all just remote and deciding by email/drawings etc?

mickdw · 27-11-2020 11:59pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can I ask you Gumbo - Do you know, do the planning lads actually call out to look at the extension, or is it all just remote and deciding by email/drawings etc?

From my experience, they will always call out. Site notice has to be inspected anyway.

Gumbo · 28-11-2020 12:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

Can I ask you Gumbo - Do you know, do the planning lads actually call out to look at the extension, or is it all just remote and deciding by email/drawings etc?

They have to call out to look at the site notice.
They will call out and look at the site and the works.

They may call in advance if access to private property is required.

Eds · 28-11-2020 2:09pm

We've recently looked into the issue of retention and in particular the 7 year rule. We were told that if you apply for retention and it is not approved the 7 years resets and the council have another 7 years to start enforcement proceedings against you. I have not had this confirmed elsewhere and even if true I've no idea what the chances are of it happening but we were advised not to look for retention. I did take a look at the online planning website for my council and they definitely do refuse retention in my area. From what I can see if you wouldn't get planning for it today then you won't get retention for it either. They are very concerned about setting precedents. In your case I would watch carefully what happens with your neighbours application before doing anything else.

[Deleted User] · 28-11-2020 5:50pm

Eds wrote: »

We've recently looked into the issue of retention and in particular the 7 year rule. We were told that if you apply for retention and it is not approved the 7 years resets and the council have another 7 years to start enforcement proceedings against you. I have not had this confirmed elsewhere and even if true I've no idea what the chances are of it happening but we were advised not to look for retention. I did take a look at the online planning website for my council and they definitely do refuse retention in my area. From what I can see if you wouldn't get planning for it today then you won't get retention for it either. They are very concerned about setting precedents. In your case I would watch carefully what happens with your neighbours application before doing anything else.

Unfortunately, though close to me physically/geographically, my neighbour has a different county council.

I was under the impression that after 7 years, although they can still opt to not grant permission, they also can't make any negative orders (ie; knock it down).

I'm leaning towards thinking I might wait it out another couple of years before approaching them about it, to play it safe.

[Deleted User] · 28-11-2020 10:27pm

Can I ask ye good folks - is it possible to book an appointment to speak with a planner in the council? Have them pop around informally and have a chat?

A way of trying to figure out roughly where you stand, before making an 'official' move and potentially hanging yourself?

L1011 · 28-11-2020 10:31pm

You would be informing the council of potentially unauthorised development in that case.

I would employ a planning consultant who has worked in the area before instead.

Gumbo · 28-11-2020 11:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can I ask ye good folks - is it possible to book an appointment to speak with a planner in the council? Have them pop around informally and have a chat?

A way of trying to figure out roughly where you stand, before making an 'official' move and potentially hanging yourself?

PrePlanning yes.
They will want drawings before any site visit if any visit was to take place.

Nothing is informal with the council, they are Authorized Officers and it would be unethical for them to act in that way.

It’s like asking a Garda to measure your speed on a given road at 130 (limit 120) and asking them would I get pulled over for this

[Deleted User] · 28-11-2020 11:42pm

Well can I ask here, then, the question mark that's hanging over my head, and that's causing me to hesitate with contacting them, is the potential for them to say 'lol no - knock it' as I can't really do that (the side of the house, the part that will get me in trouble, hosts a bathroom, which my dad, who lives with me, uses a lot, as he finds the stairs multiple times a day a bit straining on his legs).

So on one hand, I want to get everything above board with the house, so I'm not tippy-toeing around things. On the other, being told to knock it pretty much wrecks the quality of life it gives, and also causes financial strain (duh).

Ye guys that seem to know this kind of area well - what are the odds of being told to dismantle an extension?

I appreciate that to the planners, they likely couldn't care less, and they deal with this same thing over and over, day in, day out, but obviously to me, this is a first, and is a very daunting experience (especially as I was so feckin' sure i didn't need permission in the first place).

mickdw · 29-11-2020 12:58am

An awful lot would depend on the design.
Is your extension casting undue shadow onto neighbour for example?
Best thing to do is get a local professional out to have a look.
Anything else is complete guess work.

Gumbo · 29-11-2020 11:23am

Deleted User wrote: »

Well can I ask here, then, the question mark that's hanging over my head, and that's causing me to hesitate with contacting them, is the potential for them to say 'lol no - knock it' as I can't really do that (the side of the house, the part that will get me in trouble, hosts a bathroom, which my dad, who lives with me, uses a lot, as he finds the stairs multiple times a day a bit straining on his legs).

So on one hand, I want to get everything above board with the house, so I'm not tippy-toeing around things. On the other, being told to knock it pretty much wrecks the quality of life it gives, and also causes financial strain (duh).

Ye guys that seem to know this kind of area well - what are the odds of being told to dismantle an extension?

I appreciate that to the planners, they likely couldn't care less, and they deal with this same thing over and over, day in, day out, but obviously to me, this is a first, and is a very daunting experience (especially as I was so feckin' sure i didn't need permission in the first place).

Get somebody with experience in the Planning System to view the works on site and to give you their opinion.

[Deleted User] · 29-11-2020 12:02pm

If I were to offer to send a few pics/description to one of ye good folks, would you take a look at it (you can charge me for your time, of course).

Or would it be more important to have someone local actually call to the house in person? Like does the build quality or such matter, or is it all just the theory side of things that's important (size, location etc)?

[Deleted User] · 29-11-2020 12:47pm

mickdw wrote: »

An awful lot would depend on the design.
Is your extension casting undue shadow onto neighbour for example?
Best thing to do is get a local professional out to have a look.
Anything else is complete guess work.

The main part of the extension (the rear part) is a fairly generic box. Its built on the party wall (we knocked the garden wall and it became the extension side wall, but this was all done with the neighbours consent and agreement, obviously).

The part of the extension that goes around the side of the house, is literally on a lane way that was part of our back garden. It's about 2ft from the next door neighbours wall, but their wall has been raised (anti social behaviour from years ago) so its only about a foot taller than their wall, and they have no windows or such on that side of their house (bungalow).

I am not trying to exaggerate, but unless you have been told that part of the extension is there, nobody would really know it exists. Its hidden from public view. I thought that this was one of the things that meant it was exempt (doesn't affect the aesthetic of the house or street, doesn't protrude beyond the front of the house - it's about 2 meters back - but obviously I've since realised I was wrong).

mickdw · 29-11-2020 3:09pm

Have you any windows in that wall that is 2 ft from boundary?

[Deleted User] · 29-11-2020 3:48pm

mickdw wrote: »

Have you any windows in that wall that is 2 ft from boundary?

Nothing on that wall, no, just a 4" bathroom vent.

brisan · 30-11-2020 5:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, may I ask, Gumbo (or indeed anyone who may be familiar), I was fairly sure (and still kind of am, to be honest) that my extension would not need permission.

On my council's site, it says that I need planning for...

"Putting on an extension so as to bring the building or any part of the building forward of the front wall of the building on either side. Example, putting a bay window onto the front of a house which projects beyond the front wall of the adjoining house – is not exempted development"

My side extension (which again, is not visible from the street, and the entirety of the extension is less than 40sq/m, still have 25sq/m of garden space etc) stops approximately 2 meters/6 foot from the front of the house. I had assumed this would make it exempt from planning being required?

I am not sure about Louth county council but Dublin City Council asks for 10sq of private outside space for every habitable bed space in the dwelling
So a house with 2 double bedrooms and 1 single bedroom would need 50 sq mts of private outdoor space
Again not sure what if any requirements Louth council has
I know in Dublin PP has been refused for extensions if enough outside space is not left
Maybe read the guidelines for your area before you decide to apply for retention

[Deleted User] · 30-11-2020 9:52pm

brisan wrote: »

I am not sure about Louth county council but Dublin City Council asks for 10sq of private outside space for every habitable bed space in the dwelling
So a house with 2 double bedrooms and 1 single bedroom would need 50 sq mts of private outdoor space
Again not sure what if any requirements Louth council has
I know in Dublin PP has been refused for extensions if enough outside space is not left
Maybe read the guidelines for your area before you decide to apply for retention

Oh, I thought the only rule there was leave at least 25sq/meters. I have a big enough wooden shed in my garden. If I include the space that takes up, as usable space, then I have 50sq/m-ish. If I exclude it, it reduces the garden to about 32sq/m-ish. (Using Google maps to measure the space, so most likely not accurate).

To be honest, though, from reading the thread here, googling a lot, and trying to think objectively about it, i think I'm gonna leave it a few years. I won't be looking to sell he house for another 10 years or so, anyway, so I might just wait until the day comes where it needs to be dealt with.

I suppose the worst case scenario then would be that I'd just need to knock the side part (even though it would be a massive waste).

Planning Retention - What actually happens?

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