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09-02-2019, 18:57   #151
jlm29
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Originally Posted by thomasdylan View Post
ANPs are great and very skilled but they certainly don't do everything that most doctors do in ED.
And as for the ones in other clinical areas. They seem to do nothing!
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09-02-2019, 19:01   #152
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You already know that isn't true. Stop wasting the nurse's time.
A Junior doctor told me she is called to check blood pressure and put IV lines into drug addicts, the nurses refuse to do it.

The question wasnt addressed to you so butt out.

So again, nurses want to be paid more so are they willing to provide basic health care to drug addicts.
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09-02-2019, 19:26   #153
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Do you decide on what medications are prescribed for patients and administer same?

I've seen the argument that you do 4years in college so deserve pay parity, but there are plenty of people that do 4 year degrees in many disciplines, that doesn't indicate they deserve a certain level of pay.

I dont claim to know everything a nurse does, so I had a look at gradIreland to see what the work entails:
Work activities
Observing and reporting on patients' condition
providing nursing care, eg preparing for operation, caring for wounds and intravenous infusions
Recording pulse and temperature
Administering drugs and other medicines
Assisting with tests and evaluations
Providing support to patients and relatives.


From some of the arguments Iv heard, you'd swear nurses were performing brain surgery. A far cry from the work activities listed above.

I fully understand that staffing issues are leading busy workdays, but again many people who go to work everyday are overworked and stressed. The factors leading to the stress may be very different but both as valid.

I personally know a married couple both nurses, they holiday every year, drive a decent car and have 3kids. Far from the poverty line.

I think most people have encountered great nurses whilst in or visiting a hospital, as in the attention and reassurance they give to patients can be a great comfort in distressing times.
The majority of the support for nurses would be coming from these people based on the memories of that care. However if you put it to the same people that they will have to increase the tax they pay or have a new tax introduced to cover extra costs in the hse, the support may waver considerably. Its easy to say give the what they want until they realise they will have to pay for it.
This is going to be a long one sorry….

Yes nurses decide on what medications are prescribed and administer them. Nurses are the main administrators of medications. Nurses often suggest and ask for medications that they have deemed to be required after assessment of their patient. Nurses know when to hold or titrate certain medications depending on the patients current condition. Nurses can also prescribe medications after doing a course in same. We have pharmaceutical studies in college and we have to know the mechanism of action and rationale for a medication before administration. When doctors don’t know what to chart or what dosage it is usually a nurse telling them. Nurses follow 10 rights of medication and that assures safe and appropriate care.

There are also plenty of people who do 4 year degree programmes that do not provide life saving care on a daily basis.

I dont claim to know everything a nurse does, so I had a look at gradIreland to see what the work entails:
Work activities

I am going to explain what we do under the heading provided….. however, this still does not give a full picture of what being a nurse entails….

Observing and reporting on patients' condition and Recording pulse and temperature
Nurses are a constant in a patient’s care whilst in hospital. They are present 24 hours a day. They assess patient for improvement and deterioration. Seek help from medics and other AHP when required. The create care plans and attempt to ensure that the patient is seen by the appropriate teams. They send referrals and plan for safe discharges from the time of admission.
Nurses carry out many assessments to enable them to report on a patient’s condition. This includes vital signs which usually consists of heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate and effort of breathing, oxygen saturations, temperature and conscious level. They are basic checks. Depending on area you work in those observations may also include listening to the patient’s chest to ensure things such as a wheeze, oedema or a collapsed lung are improving. Assessing a patient’s heart rhythm (faster, slower, irregular). Carrying out a glasgow coma scale which includes checking a patients pupil size and response, their conscious level and assessing their limbs for weakness etc.
By carrying out these observations and having the knowledge behind what we are doing we are able to adequately evaluate care provided to prevent deterioration and also observe improvements.

providing nursing care, eg preparing for operation, caring for wounds and intravenous infusions
We do prepare patient’s for theatre and other tests. This includes carrying out a full assessment of the patient. We also do a full assessment of patients on admission to a ward. We also look after patients throughout their surgeries, afterwards in recovery and then when back on the wards.
We assess wound types and treat them. We clean and dress wounds and we provide wound care information to patient’s and their families on discharge. We insert intravenous cannulas and we do draw up, check and administer intravenous medications whilst assessing the patient for improvements on same. We also take and interpret blood results for certain infusions and make suggestions for infusions to be increased, decreased, discontinued or changed.

Administering drugs and other medicines
Answered above.

Assisting with tests and evaluations
Nurses assist and carry out numerous tests and evaluations. We continually evaluate care for patient’s every shift.

Providing support to patients and relatives.
This is a massive part of nursing. Providing patient and family centred care is a massive part of our role. We support patient’s in many ways. We support their physical, social and emotional needs as well as other needs they may have. We assist patients with their physical needs. We help to turn patient’s in bed, transfer them onto chairs, assist them in walking, provide physiotherapy, provide aids they may require for physical needs. We feed them and bathe them.
We provide social support. Home nurses for one. We ensure they are aware of where to find help if required from a social aspect. We make referrals to relevant AHPs, facilities and community groups. We also provide a listening ear to those that may have no family or friends or those who attend an Emergency department or other service because they are lonely.
We provide a massive amount of emotional support to every patient we encounter and their family members. We are there to break bad new or present when bad news is broken and we provide support post that. We are there to hold a family members hand or provide a shoulder to cry on or even be a sounding board when required. We support patient’s when they are struggling emotionally whether it’s due to their illness, social circumstances or their mind-frame.

From some of the arguments Iv heard, you'd swear nurses were performing brain surgery. A far cry from the work activities listed above.

Nurses are doing so much more than people realise. Nurses are present for brain surgeries and assist in those surgeries. They also care for those patients pre and post those surgeries. I know what you were saying was meant to be flippant but the reality is, nurses ARE doing more than the pitiful list above.
I have to agree with regards to stress, everyone suffers different stresses and loads of people are overworked. Yes the factors are different and yes the stress people feel is valid. The unfortunate truth is that we are caring for people and responsible for people’s lives. Many people are lucky that their stress is different.

That is great for that couple you mention. I hope to be in that position in the next 10-15 years. I do drive a decent car…. I have a long commute so I think that is something worthy of my money.

As for support from the public, perhaps you are right but I feel people would be happy to know they would receive quality care from adequate nursing staff when they require it.
I do disagree as to what you said about support based on memories of care. Many patient’s have been out on the picket lines or have been supporting us. They are currently experiencing what is going on within hospitals. It is not yet just a memory to them.
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09-02-2019, 19:31   #154
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I suppose I could mention that other health professionals get no remuneration whatsoever for clinical placement, although they would work quite independently on later placements, they buy their own uniforms, and are often placed very far from home or college so they may pay rent in two areas for a couple of months.

And on the other point, I know that many ahps would much rather not work 9-5, and would like the flexibility associated with working evenings and weekends, but it isn’t permitted.

I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying, just giving the other side!
Thank you for providing the other side, I welcome that input.

We would love is AHPs were working shift work with us. It would actually lead to reduced workload for many nurses. It is also great to have AHPs for advice and support when we require it.

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This is lovely to read. Thank you
Thanks Jim29
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09-02-2019, 20:16   #155
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I have a huge amount of respect for nurses. I couldn't do your job, and I absolutely think you deserve to be well paid.

With that said, I remember the last nurses strike at the end of 2015. Emergency department nurses were going to go out on strike to apparently improve things for their patients. They wanted overcrowding to be addressed, more resources and better conditions, all very admirable goals.

But the deal they settled with the government ended up being for extra annual leave, which just exacerbates the situation and increases staff shortages. It felt really disingenuous, that it was never actually about the patients at all.

This is just an outside perspective though, potentially skewed by how the media reported it. You said you were an ED nurse yourself, what did you think about the 2015 strike and the deal that was struck? Have I got it wrong?
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09-02-2019, 21:04   #156
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I agree that nurses are underpaid. Is understaffing a big problem? My understanding is that that is the primary driver of a lot of problems. Will a pay rise for those that are staffed make this worse?
Hi oldbee,

When we are saying we are understaffed we are not lying unfortunately. Under-staffing is a massive massive issue. It is evident by the amount the HSE pays for agency staff. Most hospitals pull staff from one area to another. Some wards have one permanent staff nurse on a shift with 2 students. That is stressful for the nurse as student nurses cannot do intravenous medications or administer medication alone. The nurse also has to run the ward. It is also incredibly stressful for the student nurses as yes they are getting massive experience having their own patient caseload and responsibilities but where is their support and guidance in that situation. I think if nurses were better staffed this strike action would never have come about to be honest. We need the short staffing fixed. Yes it means there are shifts available for those nurses who want to work extra shifts every month but it also means wards are short and nurses are continually overworked.

When I first qualified we had empty beds when we walked in on shift and when we left. There were adequate nurses. But patient caseloads have increased massively. There are extra patients put onto wards on trolleys. The nurse to patient ratio has increased and more nurses would help all of that. I honestly don't think there are any services fully staffed. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think there are.
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09-02-2019, 21:07   #157
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Have you ever pulled in coppers?
That would be telling... but yes

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AMA thanks for doing this. Understand it well with nurses in the family.
Those looking at the wage issue should read the following in full:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019...90-nurses-pay/
You are welcome and I hope your family members are all keeping their chins up right now.... it is difficult at times!

Thank you for linking that
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09-02-2019, 21:18   #158
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1. A 10% increase in pay isn't going to make nurses have so much more disposable income that renting in Dublin isn't an absolute pain, just like the rest of us.

2. If wages were increased so that it wasn't a pain and people still had loads of money after rent, then house prices and rent would just go up.
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I graduated a few years ago and I moved to Dublin earning 23k. I rented and rent was insanely high then too. I saved 6k in one year while running a car, going out, buying clothes etc.

This is not a pay problem, that's a you problem.
You graduated a few years ago. I lived in Dublin for more than a few years. When I first qualified I could afford extortionate rent but not have much of a social life. Then rent reduced and I could afford a social life and holidays and enjoyed myself instead of studying. Then rents increased and so did the cost of living and I am back to being able to afford my rent and bills but no holidays and no nights out. That is fine, I can deal with being broke once I can afford my rent and bills.

I cannot save and yes that is a me problem. I could move back to Dublin, pay a much higher rent and get rid of my car and diesel.... But i would be paying more than i am now!

Another thing to add to this is my husband is a public servant and earns just over half of what I earn but his net pay works out good compared to mine each month.
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09-02-2019, 21:27   #159
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I think a few things discredit the pay demand.

Is a pay rise or pay restoration, they are different things and casually switching between both shows vagueness.

The pay quoted never includes allowances for unsocial shifts, it’s part of the job and pay, shownthe real figures.

Nurses coming out of training now have no complaints, is pay not the same if even better then when they started to train? If they weren’t happy they shouldn’t have chosen it as a career.
I totally agree with what you are saying. Pay restoration for nurses would bring us in line with our AHPs. So yes it would be a pay rise but restoration would amount to approx 3000 extra per year.

Most of the quoted pay I have seen is bull to be quite honest. Nurses earning 50k a year? I wont be at 50k even if I am a nurse 15 years. It is also made out that we earn that much gross. There is an article linked above on page 8 or 9 that outlines all nurses/midwives pay. All our pay scales, allowances etc are publicly available. The pay slips that have been released show real wages earned and include what you have mentioned above.

It is not true that you say newly qualified nurses have no complaints. For the responsibility and accountability that is now expected of newly qualified nurses they do not get paid near enough. When I qualified you always had seniors on the ward, not as many patients and less autonomy. It is different now. Nurses have upskilled and are expected to carry out more tasks now than they were 10 years ago.

I never ever looked at how much a nurse earned when I chose it on my CAO. I assume at 17 or 18 years of ago neither do many choosing it. Also, I now know many nurses who are graduating and leaving nursing altogether. I also know senior nurses leaving nursing for careers in teaching, law and accounting. When I first qualified that was something I never heard of.
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09-02-2019, 21:28   #160
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I think that people need to realise that this is a legacy issue. Back the years when teachers and other PS were regularly striking for better pay, nurses were under the cosh of nuns in the hospitals. They were expected to work and behave like novices and under no circumstances would they be permitted to complain about pay and conditions. As a result they were left behind in relation to other areas of the PS. Personally, I believe they should be raised to the same basic pay rate as teachers.
This is the 2nd stirike by nurses in 100 years. So well said Verta. You are absolutely correct in what you say. Nursing is so different nowadays.
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09-02-2019, 21:35   #161
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Is it true that nurses wont insert take blood pressure readings or insert IV lines into drug addicts.

Do they just refuse and call on Junior Doctors who are already run off their feet to do this work.
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You already know that isn't true. Stop wasting the nurse's time.
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Utter tripe .... they may try to get it in 2or 3 times and if they can’t , then they will call someone else to try .. but that’s just common practice. Please stop wasting everyone’s time with foolish anti nurse questions
As varta and Hawkelady stated this is untrue. In fact it is completely untrue. Nurses absolutely do blood pressures and insert IV lines on ANYONE that needs them. I have to say though, Hawkelady is kinds right and wrong... We do attempt and will call doctors sometimes, however, we would generally call another nurse!! Nurses are pros at lines! We are so used to doing it.

I used to absolutely get great pleasure out of getting a line into someone when their veins were really bad or someone else couldn't. I genuinely always felt like I had just made a difference to that person. Drug addicts or not they still deserve to be treated and cared for as well as you would care for someone who had never every touched drugs.
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09-02-2019, 21:39   #162
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I feel the untold story of the current nurses strike is agency nurses.

How does it feel as a hse nurse to work along side an agency nurse that is paid more money than you.

Do you feel you could kill off the agency nurse trade with a pay rise requested by the unions at the moment.
I personally feel no resentment towards an agency nurse despite them sometimes earning triple what I am without the responsibility that I have. Agency nurses are helping you out when you are short of your own nurses so you are just thankful that they are there.

Some wards and departments have agency nurses that work there on full time hours..... that proves that more staff are required when an agency nurse can work in the same area week after week, month after month.

I would say there will always be room for agency nurses but I do think there is massive spending on agency nurses AND doctors. I think if nurses/doctors could be encouraged to join the HSE instead then that would reduce the agency costs and I think that could happen with pay.
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09-02-2019, 21:44   #163
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Nurses get an allowance for working in a specialist area where particular knowledge and skills are required. Paid post grads where you still work full time and pay back time following completion of the post grad. How much is overtime? only asking, because anywhere I work it is just paid as normal hourly rate unless it includes unsociable hours which are also paid as normal. I have never ever in 10 years been able to work up time off by working nights.... and i did a LOT of nights. We have the same pension as every other public servant unless, once again, you know something more than I do despite paying into my pension.
Does this not acknowledge that the skills required deserve higher pay? As has been asked before do you think it is fair that nurses still claim this allowance and all other entitlements that the AHPs don't have access to while earning the same base salary? If so, why? I don't have a dog in this fight, just interested to hear your perspective.
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09-02-2019, 21:47   #164
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I will just put this out there again as most probably didn't see it.


My wife was responsible for 12 women AND 12 babies EVERY shift. Not one of the people on here suggesting in some way or other that nursing is not that bad etc wouldn't last an hour under conditions like that.


Lastly, I had a burst lip many years ago. A doctor in Harcourt St stitched it. It never healed probably and I was left with scar tissue and a lump on my lip.

I had a burst lip maybe 10 yrs ago and the head nurse in James A&E stitched it and you wouldn't know it was ever there.

A nurse with 20+ yrs of experience would run rings around a junior doctor.
They deserve more staff at the very least.
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09-02-2019, 21:48   #165
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Nurses absolutely do blood pressures and insert IV lines on ANYONE that needs them.
Is it different on the Wards?
I've never had an IV line put in by a nurse or a phlebotomist when I'm an inpatient.
It's always been done by a doctor.

On a side note - it really annoys me how a phlebotomist won't take blood from a picc line.
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