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Airsoft vs Enviroment.

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135

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    #62
    NakedDex
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭NakedDex


    I don't imagine I run the world? I imagine I'm in San Francisco with Kari Byron looking for the last parts we need for our rocket that will win us the Lunar X-Prize.


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    #63
    Spetzcong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Spetzcong


    Firekitten wrote: »
    And to think you apes imagine you run the world :rolleyes:

    There ya are, being irrational again...

    Nah, I'm only engaging in a bit of good natured slagging. Not intended to offend, hence the smilie and the "joking by the way". I do not subscribe to any of the sexist or male chauvanist thinking voiced in my previous post. Thought this thread could do with a bit of lightening up is all.


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    #64
    Dr_Pepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Dr_Pepper


    Spetzcong wrote: »
    There ya are, being irrational again...

    Nah, I'm only engaging in a bit of good natured slagging. Not intended to offend, hence the smilie and the "joking by the way". I do not subscribe to any of the sexist or male chauvanist thinking voiced in my previous post. Thought this thread could do with a bit of lightening up is all.

    The days on being PC are well and truly upon us.
    :eek:


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    #65
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Spetzcong wrote: »
    I don't see that we are obliged to be concerned about anything. Surfers know that their surfboards are harmful to the environment, and bar one or two companies making 'green' surfboards (which aren't hugely successful tbh) the rest of them still carry on regardless, and they're a bunch of long haired tree hugging hippie types (not all of 'em, but a far greater percentage than the half-crazed gun nuts you meet airsofting). Personally I don't feel obliged to be concerned about the environment at all, even if I were firing depleted uranium pellets all over it. If you want to get all "an inconvenient truth" about things go right ahead, but don't expect me to row in behind ya, especially not if you can't back up your argument with facts.

    This is very bad attitude. And that is the whole problem. People just don't care. Airsofters don't care. Why? Because it is not mainstream? Because it's to difficult? Takes to much hustle?

    What arguments do you need? I've started that thread to share my concerns with fellow airsofters. I didn't expect to convince such a declared polluter like yourself.

    Limiting only to BBs, factories all around the world manufacture tons of tons of BBs every month (not saying these are used right away, some are stored, but still...) You are sceptical I understand that, scepticism is not allways good.

    @Firrekitten: It's my 100% private oppinion and I don't think you will be able to accept my arguments, especially with my "bad english", so to avoid any more confusion and to avoid publicly making sexist out of me (which, despite of accusing me of, I'm not) I'd like to get that sorted over the pm.


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    #66
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    Dr_Pepper wrote: »
    The days on being PC are well and truly upon us.
    :eek:

    People for ethical treatment of syntax (PETS) will be on to you about your spelling in the morning you horrid politically incorrect person you.

    ;)


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    #67
    Spetzcong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Spetzcong


    andros wrote: »
    This is very bad attitude. And that is the whole problem. People just don't care. Airsofters don't care. Why? Because it is not mainstream? Because it's to difficult? Takes to much hustle?

    I'm not exactly a declared polluter, I recycle, I don't throw my rubbish on the street, I get slightly annoyed when I see places of natural beauty marred by empty cans and rubbish.

    I just don't see the point in making a big fuss about BBs when A) there's no proof that they're harmful and B) we live in a country where 75% of our waste goes to landfill.

    I mean, what's the point? All that rubbish you put in your bin, they stick it in a hole in the ground. So forgive my cynacism but if you want to know where I get the "environment my arse" mentality, it's from our Government.


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    #68
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Spetzcong wrote: »
    I'm not exactly a declared polluter, I recycle, I don't throw my rubbish on the street, I get slightly annoyed when I see places of natural beauty marred by empty cans and rubbish.

    I just don't see the point in making a big fuss about BBs when A) there's no proof that they're harmful and B) we live in a country where 75% of our waste goes to landfill.

    I mean, what's the point? All that rubbish you put in your bin, they stick it in a hole in the ground. So forgive my cynacism but if you want to know where I get the "environment my arse" mentality, it's from our Government.

    I was just joking with that "polluter":D. I know where are you comming from with scepticism. Still I believe we should be aware of it.

    Regarding your A) there. That is the biggest problem. We don't know. That happens in many other subjects as well. From my experience. Biggest concern is always whenever biggest uncertanity is. There at least two possible options. It doesn't do anything or is very bad.


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    #69
    NakedDex
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭NakedDex


    andros wrote: »
    Limiting only to BBs, factories all around the world manufacture tons of tons of BBs every month (not saying these are used right away, some are stored, but still...) You are sceptical I understand that, scepticism is not allways good.

    Here's the thing that I'm still not getting. We've established that bb's degrade. There's about a half bottle of BB's in this room right now, and another bag of them elsewhere. That's, say, 1.3kg in weight of whatever plastics/composites/materials these bb's are made from. I just had a quick look in the kitchen while I was making tea. There's two 2.5kg rolls of cling film (cooking is a big thing in this house, so we tend to use a lot of it).
    Consider, if you will, the things that would be wrapping and you would assume that, rather than dumping it into the recycling bin, hygiene considerations would have you dumping it in the regular garbage. That's 5kg of plastic that will probably be used up in the space of six weeks that's going to pure waste.

    By contrast, the half bottle was cracked open over a month ago and I still have that much left. The bag of bb's have been waiting to be opened for over two months.
    One item in my kitchen outweighs the pollutant of my entire bb usage since about February/April in the space of 5-6 weeks.

    There are bigger fish to fry.

    Incidentally, go talk to a farmer that sows maize. When the seeds go down they need to be sheltered from direct exposure during the colder months so they're covered with sheets of plastic, which I believe is either polyethylene or polypropylene. These sheets are actually embedded into the soil by the machine sowing the seeds and partially covered with it. When the maize begins sprouting, they burst through the plastic. At harvest time, the maize is cut down leaving a few inches of the stump of the stalk and all the plastic. This isn't dug up, the plastic is simply ploughed back into the ground and the cycle repeats (albeit quite likely with a fallow season unless there's a serious amount of fertilising done, which is another pollutant issue in itself).


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    #70
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    andros wrote: »
    @Firrekitten: It's my 100% private oppinion and I don't think you will be able to accept my arguments, especially with my "bad english", so to avoid any more confusion and to avoid publicly making sexist out of me (which, despite of accusing me of, I'm not) I'd like to get that sorted over the pm.
    To be honest, if you think it will make you look sexist in public, i dont want to fecking hear it in PM...
    Take your attitudes elsewhere, airsoft doesnt want it.


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    #71
    Stone.cold
    Registered Users Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Stone.cold


    wondered how long it would be before someone started banging on about the enviroment.


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    #72
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    NakedDex wrote: »
    Here's the thing that I'm still not getting. We've established that bb's degrade. There's about a half bottle of BB's in this room right now, and another bag of them elsewhere. That's, say, 1.3kg in weight of whatever plastics/composites/materials these bb's are made from. I just had a quick look in the kitchen while I was making tea. There's two 2.5kg rolls of cling film (cooking is a big thing in this house, so we tend to use a lot of it).
    Consider, if you will, the things that would be wrapping and you would assume that, rather than dumping it into the recycling bin, hygiene considerations would have you dumping it in the regular garbage. That's 5kg of plastic that will probably be used up in the space of six weeks that's going to pure waste.

    By contrast, the half bottle was cracked open over a month ago and I still have that much left. The bag of bb's have been waiting to be opened for over two months.
    One item in my kitchen outweighs the pollutant of my entire bb usage since about February/April in the space of 5-6 weeks.

    There are bigger fish to fry.

    I can say only, you are not able to make everyone happy. Of course 5kg will be worst (cost of manufacture, shipping, utilization). We are all polluting. Only way to stop the pollution is to remove human kind from the face of the Earth. Of course we could do everything much cleaner, from more enviroment friendly products. (it's not only about airsoft, most of the stuff that we use in our day to day life).

    Those plastic bbs turn into dust but they don't dissapear.

    I wont change my mind on the subject. Even we don't know how bad BBs can be.


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    #73
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    then i am afraid, logically you are foolish.

    they came from somewhere... first law of thermodynamics is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed... its come from products in the earth, its gone back, it may not break down, but its chemical resistance means its unlikely to do feck all...


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    #74
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Firekitten wrote: »
    To be honest, if you think it will make you look sexist in public, i dont want to fecking hear it in PM...
    Take your attitudes elsewhere, airsoft doesnt want it.

    I can tell you what I think about your attitude in the public. I don't give a damn. Coming out with "the politicaly correct card". I don't care what you think. Not because you are a girl. Because I don't agree with you and your attitude with showing of with your "degree". I'm trying to be polite and keep things in fair.

    Airsoft doesn't want it what airsoft care about you or me or anyone? Better say it, you don't what to hear what I have to say because I have problems with your ego. I'm a graduate, I have a degree what do you know how dare you oppose to what I'm saying. That is what I think about it.

    I didn't what to drag that conversation because I know you will keep pushing on that. I was after saing on the PM that I'm sorry you felt insulted with my innocent comment, putting yourself in the victims position. How obvious.


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    #75
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Firekitten wrote: »
    then i am afraid, logically you are foolish.

    they came from somewhere... first law of thermodynamics is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed... its come from products in the earth, its gone back, it may not break down, but its chemical resistance means its unlikely to do feck all...

    Damn who gave you that degree? Are you on the constant quest of provin yourself... wrong?


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    #76
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    andros wrote: »
    I can tell you what I think about your attitude in the public. I don't give a damn. Coming out with "the politicaly correct card". I don't care what you think. Not because you are a girl. Because I don't agree with you and your attitude with showing of with your "degree". I'm trying to be polite and keep things in fair.

    Airsoft doesn't want it what airsoft care about you or me or anyone? Better say it, you don't what to hear what I have to say because I have problems with your ego. I'm a graduate, I have a degree what do you know how dare you oppose to what I'm saying. That is what I think about it.

    I didn't what to drag that conversation because I know you will keep pushing on that. I was after saing on the PM that I'm sorry you felt insulted with my innocent comment, putting yourself in the victims position. How obvious.
    You were the one that insinuated... not me... And i have never 'waved around my degree'

    I challenge anyone in this thread to point out where i a, waved around my degree, or b, played a politically correct card... please do... cookies for winners.
    andros wrote: »
    Damn who gave you that degree? Are you on the constant quest of provin yourself... wrong?

    I have yet to proove myself wrong on this... just proove your ignorance.


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    #77
    Stone.cold
    Registered Users Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Stone.cold


    andros wrote: »
    Damn who gave you that degree? Are you on the constant quest of provin yourself... wrong?
    i see a tree that needs hugging, but seriously dude u might have degrees but your lacking in manners


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    #78
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    andros wrote: »
    Damn who gave you that degree? Are you on the constant quest of provin yourself... wrong?

    No. Shes right

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

    Matter/energy pretty much the same thing. See "nuclear bombs".


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    #79
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Firekitten wrote: »
    You were the one that insinuated... not me... And i have never 'waved around my degree'

    I challenge anyone in this thread to point out where i a, waved around my degree, or b, played a politically correct card... please do... cookies for winners.



    I have yet to proove myself wrong on this... just proove your ignorance.

    I'd like to continue that lovely conversation with you but at this stage I just see no point. I'm not going to change my mind on that subject.

    Also Id like to say I'm deeply sorry if you felt insulted in any way and you were right all the way from the very begininng and I was so, so wrong.


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    #80
    kinkstr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭kinkstr


    I can piss higher than both of you:D


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    #81
    Firekitten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Firekitten


    Well thats over....
    as for not changing your mind... yeah i noticed you were an enviro fanboy... arguing with them is like arguing with a brick wall.

    Kinkster: well thats not hard, i cant do it standing on my head....


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    #82
    NakedDex
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭NakedDex


    andros wrote: »
    I can say only, you are not able to make everyone happy. Of course 5kg will be worst (cost of manufacture, shipping, utilization). We are all polluting. Only way to stop the pollution is to remove human kind from the face of the Earth. Of course we could do everything much cleaner, from more enviroment friendly products. (it's not only about airsoft, most of the stuff that we use in our day to day life).

    Those plastic bbs turn into dust but they don't dissapear.

    I wont change my mind on the subject. Even we don't know how bad BBs can be.

    I was using the cling film as an example of where priority of concern should lie.
    You skipped past what I said about farmers simply ploughing that plastic back into the ground too, I find that incredibly relevant to the discussion since it's a prime example of massive amounts of plastics in soil.
    It should also be noted that the Conservation Rangers (don't laugh, they're real and they're official) raised all these environmental concerns with a particular skirmish site years ago and were satisfied, after their investigation, that there was no notable threat to any habitat or the general environment caused through the use of bb's as an ammo.

    In this case, it is just about airsoft, and not what we use in our day to day life. If it wasn't, this discussion would be taking place on a different part of boards.ie.

    As for the bb's turning to dust but not disappearing... Well, nothing disappears unless you happen to have the keys to the LHC at CERN and are curious about the reaction of opposing sub atomic particles travelling at massive speeds toward each other.
    But "degrade" is a very definite term. The bb's started life as a spherical, solid object of fixed density and weight, and have now degraded into a dust of indeterminable shape, density, size or weight. It did this, most likely (since there was no physical interference from myself or others) through exposure to moisture, varying temperatures and direct sunlight, all of which are natural phenomena. This would fairly conclusively imply the form of degradation that took place to convert the solid object into a powder form was biodegradation.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I put it to you that bb's are biodegradable.


    Edit: Typical I'd walk away to make tea without hitting send, only to find the whole thing over when I got back.


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    #83
    kinkstr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭kinkstr


    Firekitten wrote: »
    Kinkster: well thats not hard, i cant do it standing on my head....

    Im a good teacher if you have some free time, dont answer now have a think about it:P


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    #84
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Firekitten wrote: »
    Well thats over....
    as for not changing your mind... yeah i noticed you were an enviro fanboy... arguing with them is like arguing with a brick wall.

    Kinkster: well thats not hard, i cant do it standing on my head....

    I'm trully sorry. It's not a sarcasm. I just got carried over. Sorry again. I'm not an enviro fan boy for your information. I just have my point of view on things and believe they should be made in more effcient way. I tend to see what other people don't and I don't see things that other people do like all of us.

    But still we don't know what the effect is and that should be the biggest concern.


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    #85
    Stone.cold
    Registered Users Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Stone.cold


    NakedDex wrote: »
    Ladies and gentlemen, I put it to you that bb's are biodegradable.

    I was told recently by a retailer that all bb's degrade maybe not as fast as bio's but all eventually break down.


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    #86
    Stone.cold
    Registered Users Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Stone.cold


    andros wrote: »
    I'm trully sorry. It's not a sarcasm. I just got carried over. Sorry again. I'm not an enviro fan boy for your information. I just have my point of view on things and believe they should be made in more effcient way. I tend to see what other people don't and I don't see things that other people do like all of us.

    But still we don't know what the effect is and that should be the biggest concern.
    Do u see dead people :D


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    #87
    NakedDex
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭NakedDex


    Here's the thing, the burden of proof lies on you. As far as I can tell, they're degradable and inert and have never caused any damage to the environment that I've ever seen on record.

    Prove your theory conclusively using hard evidence and data, and I'll change my opinion.


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    #88
    andros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭andros


    Stone.cold wrote: »
    I was told recently by a retailer that all bb's degrade maybe not as fast as bio's but all eventually break down.

    Yeah they degrade, fall apart to smaller particles. They will decompose probably after 10 - 20 years, can't say don't have that info at the moment.

    Dex when did I say that bbs desintegrate completly?


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    #89
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    andros wrote: »
    But still we don't know what the effect is and that should be the biggest concern.

    To be honest, your constant repetition of this is getting annoying to the point of dogma.

    The point is that you want every one to do ... what? Precisely?

    Is it by any chance the same thing that you should have done before jumping up and down screaming about how BB's are wrecking the world with barium or whatever? I.e. gather information by means of testing for noxious environmental contaminants in soil or atmosphere as a direct result of the presence of BB's and what damage - if any - this could cause?

    You are asking everyone to "be concerned" about BB's when there is no evidence that we should be concerned yet. I suggest you go and either do the research or find some other, peer reviewed data which suggests a significant problem.


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    #90
    NakedDex
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭NakedDex


    Stone.cold wrote: »
    I was told recently by a retailer that all bb's degrade maybe not as fast as bio's but all eventually break down.

    I've been saying that for quite some time myself, for the exact reasons I stated. Standard bb's just break down considerably slower than bios. Where bios might take weeks, regular bb's might take months or a couple of years to degrade unassisted.
    It should be noted that our climate is actually extremely conducive to both types breaking down quicker than other places in the world too, so we're even better off.


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    #91
    Stone.cold
    Registered Users Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Stone.cold


    andros wrote: »
    Yeah they degrade, fall apart to smaller particles. They will decompose probably after 10 - 20 years, can't say don't have that info at the moment.

    Dex when did I say that bbs desintegrate completly?
    so whats the problem then they will decompose


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