Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Alarm options?

  • 09-06-2017 11:32am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭


    Hi guys,

    I know it's been discussed before but has anyone successfully integrated alarm and automation?

    I've a Vera edge and a fair few z wave enabled devices.

    I have no problem switching to zig bee or something else but the ultimate goal for me is a unified front (if I got a zigbee alarm I'd use Domoticz as a front for both it and Vera z-wave for example).

    The ultimate goal is that any window and door sensors are BOTH automation and security enabled. I don't want 2 separate sensors on the 3-4 doors I'd be putting them on.

    Is there alarm systems available with registered installers that are either z-wave or IP addressable (easily and securely!) or a fallback I know there is some that you can hook up voltage sensors to sense arm / disarm etc. My fear (i.e. what I want to avoid) with IP or voltage sensor is that detecting the status of individual door / window sensors wouldn't be possible.

    I know this has been discussed before but hoping a new thread with new / current status might be good.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Nelbert wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    I know it's been discussed before but has anyone successfully integrated alarm and automation?

    I've a Vera edge and a fair few z wave enabled devices.

    I have no problem switching to zig bee or something else but the ultimate goal for me is a unified front (if I got a zigbee alarm I'd use Domoticz as a front for both it and Vera z-wave for example).

    The ultimate goal is that any window and door sensors are BOTH automation and security enabled. I don't want 2 separate sensors on the 3-4 doors I'd be putting them on.

    Is there alarm systems available with registered installers that are either z-wave or IP addressable (easily and securely!) or a fallback I know there is some that you can hook up voltage sensors to sense arm / disarm etc. My fear (i.e. what I want to avoid) with IP or voltage sensor is that detecting the status of individual door / window sensors wouldn't be possible.

    I know this has been discussed before but hoping a new thread with new / current status might be good.


    Hi,

    I've had the comfort alarm system by cytech for.the last 17 years (upgraded it about ten years ago, but apart from that same system). It's a fully fledged automation controller and alarm system with an Android or iPhone app that lets you control the alarm, automation devices and view cameras etc.

    It has interfaces to zwave, cbus, knx, X10, velbus and lots more different interfaces.


    Regards

    Eamon


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Hi,

    I've had the comfort alarm system by cytech for.the last 17 years (upgraded it about ten years ago, but apart from that same system). It's a fully fledged automation controller and alarm system with an Android or iPhone app that lets you control the alarm, automation devices and view cameras etc.

    It has interfaces to zwave, cbus, knx, X10, velbus and lots more different interfaces.


    Regards

    Eamon

    Did you install yourself? Could you pm me your installer if not?
    Essentially I'd love to have something like that just sitting on the existing z wave network and be able to make use of z wave door sensors etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Nelbert wrote: »
    Did you install yourself? Could you pm me your installer if not?
    Essentially I'd love to have something like that just sitting on the existing z wave network and be able to make use of z wave door sensors etc.


    I fitted it myself, there are installers about in Ireland though, take a look at the website for links www.cytech.biz

    One thing I would say about it, from an automation perspective you do want to be able to access and tweak the programming of it yourself. And I would say the same for any controller. When the controller is your alarm system also, sometimes an installer may be reluctant to give you access to the system at that level, so check that out if you are going the installer route.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    It has interfaces to zwave, cbus, knx, X10, velbus and lots more different interfaces.

    Having looked at many systems I regret not getting this one.

    It's far better than the others I've seen


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    I fitted it myself, there are installers about in Ireland though, take a look at the website for links www.cytech.biz

    One thing I would say about it, from an automation perspective you do want to be able to access and tweak the programming of it yourself. And I would say the same for any controller. When the controller is your alarm system also, sometimes an installer may be reluctant to give you access to the system at that level, so check that out if you are going the installer route.

    I don't mind having 2 controllers one for automation and one for alarm. It's doubling up on sensors etc that I don't want. So even if it was locked down as an alarm controller only I'd be fine with that, I'd have my other controller as the primary one for automation aspects...... if that makes sense.

    Is your house insurance impacted by it being self install?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Nelbert wrote: »
    I don't mind having 2 controllers one for automation and one for alarm. It's doubling up on sensors etc that I don't want. So even if it was locked down as an alarm controller only I'd be fine with that, I'd have my other controller as the primary one for automation aspects...... if that makes sense.

    Is your house insurance impacted by it being self install?

    Hi, I don't claim an alarm discount, or I got a lower discount as it's a self install.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Is it a complex install considering I'd be going with the alarm panel, siren, keypad and z wave add on?

    Had a quick glance and most of the complex stuff seems more geared towards wired zones where as my sensors etc would just be z wave?

    I've done cable pulls and outdoor sockets and lights etc but an alarm would be a new one on the DIY resume. Just wouldn't like to make a mess of it or worse fry the board/s


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    Hi, I don't claim an alarm discount, or I got a lower discount as it's a self install.


    That's the general advice on the home security forum too. It's not worth it


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Nelbert wrote: »
    Is it a complex install considering I'd be going with the alarm panel, siren, keypad and z wave add on?

    Had a quick glance and most of the complex stuff seems more geared towards wired zones where as my sensors etc would just be z wave?

    I've done cable pulls and outdoor sockets and lights etc but an alarm would be a new one on the DIY resume. Just wouldn't like to make a mess of it or worse fry the board/s

    Split the install into two boys

    The wiring, which tbh is not difficult, it's just pirs (2 or 3 pairs per our) and door contacts.

    The keypads use cat5.

    The complexity in the wiring is planning it and making sure you get everything where you need it. I have door sensors on some of my internal doors to activate lights etc.

    The programming then is the next phase which will take you a while to get the hang of by is fairly logical.

    I would suggest downloading the manual, and even the comfigurator program to see how the programming is done. Explore the forums alos,

    I have a guide I wore up to an upgrade I did on my system so I will link that if you want alos.

    Off you are handy with wiring, and logical then you could do it yourself.

    My background is telcoms, so it was second nature to me almost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    Split the install into two boys

    The wiring, which tbh is not difficult, it's just pirs (2 or 3 pairs per our) and door contacts.

    The keypads use cat5.

    The complexity in the wiring is planning it and making sure you get everything where you need it. I have door sensors on some of my internal doors to activate lights etc.

    The programming then is the next phase which will take you a while to get the hang of by is fairly logical.

    I would suggest downloading the manual, and even the comfigurator program to see how the programming is done. Explore the forums alos,

    I have a guide I wore up to an upgrade I did on my system so I will link that if you want alos.

    Off you are handy with wiring, and logical then you could do it yourself.

    My background is telcoms, so it was second nature to me almost.


    Cheers I was actually thinking of using all z wave PIRs and door contacts rather than any wires....

    I assume the keypad are just you bog standard looking numeric plus a few extra button type?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    Split the install into two boys

    The wiring, which tbh is not difficult, it's just pirs (2 or 3 pairs per our) and door contacts.

    The keypads use cat5.

    The complexity in the wiring is planning it and making sure you get everything where you need it. I have door sensors on some of my internal doors to activate lights etc.

    The programming then is the next phase which will take you a while to get the hang of by is fairly logical.

    I would suggest downloading the manual, and even the comfigurator program to see how the programming is done. Explore the forums alos,

    I have a guide I wore up to an upgrade I did on my system so I will link that if you want alos.

    Off you are handy with wiring, and logical then you could do it yourself.

    My background is telcoms, so it was second nature to me almost.

    Are you using separate home automation hub for the lights or does the security hub also do that? Link to cytech didn't work on my phone, which product was it? Already feeling that running cables to power all the motion sensors I want for HA (dont want to have to change batteries all the time) will be a lot so 2nd set for security seems a bit much. Still struggling to accept that security systems that relay events/ integrate with HA hubs like Smartthings are so limited in thisbdayband age.

    Actually, that reminds me, have been finding the Smartthings forum to be the most informative site I've come across with very resourceful members so maybe someone on there will have some code or solution to join up the two systems, worth a look.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Nelbert wrote: »
    Cheers I was actually thinking of using all z wave PIRs and door contacts rather than any wires....

    I assume the keypad are just you bog standard looking numeric plus a few extra button type?

    To my.mind, if you are wiring from scratch why put in wireless devices when you could go wired ?

    Apart from usual issues with wireless sensors such as receptionn,better life, reliability, compare the cost of a zero wave pir or door sensor to a standard wired one.

    Specific to comfort though, the z wave sensors I don't think can be used as an alarm trigger, I might be wrong on this but worth checking up.


    They keypads can vary in look, you can even get touch screen and intercom ones.


    But, I would strongly suggest go wired for your sensors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Are you using separate home automation hub for the lights or does the security hub also do that? Link to cytech didn't work on my phone, which product was it? Already feeling that running cables to power all the motion sensors I want for HA (dont want to have to change batteries all the time) will be a lot so 2nd set for security seems a bit much. Still struggling to accept that security systems that relay events/ integrate with HA hubs like Smartthings are so limited in thisbdayband age.

    Actually, that reminds me, have been finding the Smartthings forum to be the most informative site I've come across with very resourceful members so maybe someone on there will have some code or solution to join up the two systems, worth a look.

    Hi Frank, yep the security system is also the automation hub.

    Some general things I have it doing, and note that because it's an integrated alarm system and controller, you can get it to behave differently based on the status of the alarm system (away, night mode, home mode)

    1) All lghts are smart controlled, using velbus devices, but this could easily be done with other protocols that comfort supports.
    2) events can be triggered from any door or motion sensor, and based on or restricted to dusk, Dawn, security mode etc, security arming, disarming etc.

    3) so, certain rooms I have the lighting based on motion detection after dusk. When you walk into a room, or open a door, the lights are activated for a set period. I have not his set in the bathrooms, kitchen, master bedroom, and corridor.

    4) when leaving home, once the system is armed it will turn off any or all devices that I have it controlling. In my instance, all lights.

    5) arriving home, if it's dark, once the front Doo is opened, it turns on internal hall lights and kitchen lights.

    6) by the bedside an arm button sets the house to night mode, turns off all lights, and prevents them being auto triggered by motion, or in some cases makes other lights now that igger based on motion detection.

    7) used to control my heating bit I have migrated this to nest.

    8) app allows full control of the system locly or remotely, including all connected devices.


    On the smart things, there are two things to note. Comfort does not talk directly to the ST hub, but if your devices are z wave then it should be able to talk dir xtly to the devices.

    There is a rasperry pie smart things emulator which will talk to comfort, so that is actually an interface from comfort directly to smart things.

    I will post some links in a few minutes


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    http://www.cytech.biz


    http://www.comfortforums.com

    www.velbus.eu



    And a link to a guide I did on my own system when I upgraded my system from using X10 for controlling lights to using velbus.


    https://drive.google.com/a/glenegare.com/file/d/0B1zlDoqP2HdxUGVJdnY3WGtYamM/view?usp=drivesdk


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    To my.mind, if you are wiring from scratch why put in wireless devices when you could go wired ?

    Apart from usual issues with wireless sensors such as receptionn,better life, reliability, compare the cost of a zero wave pir or door sensor to a standard wired one.

    Specific to comfort though, the z wave sensors I don't think can be used as an alarm trigger, I might be wrong on this but worth checking up.


    They keypads can vary in look, you can even get touch screen and intercom ones.


    But, I would strongly suggest go wired for your sensors.

    I'm not wiring from scratch..... this is ad hoc after the fact (ie after decoration) improvement.... wife approval factor plays against me....

    Latest comfort version supports z wave as alarm sensors.... point taken though I could wire main PIR and front door sensor (they'd be cheaper than the z wave ones too!). It will also create virtual z wave modules to reflect wired PIR and door sensors etc (up to 128 of them!).

    I've a really good z wave mesh throughout the house, excellent coverage in the attic and the length of the back garden.

    Read a good few of the comfort manuals and happy to attack this as a DIY challenge now.... bit more reading and then some pricing and ordering!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Nelbert wrote: »
    I'm not wiring from scratch..... this is ad hoc after the fact (ie after decoration) improvement.... wife approval factor plays against me....

    Latest comfort version supports z wave as alarm sensors.... point taken though I could wire main PIR and front door sensor (they'd be cheaper than the z wave ones too!). It will also create virtual z wave modules to reflect wired PIR and door sensors etc (up to 128 of them!).

    I've a really good z wave mesh throughout the house, excellent coverage in the attic and the length of the back garden.

    Read a good few of the comfort manuals and happy to attack this as a DIY challenge now.... bit more reading and then some pricing and ordering!


    Brilliant, good luck, gve me a shout if you need any info and I will help if I can. If your interested in seeing my system either let me know.

    Two things I would suggest. When considering your rewire for sensors, think about internal door sensors, you can get them completely hidden so not visible so no aesthetic issues.

    The reason you might want them on some doora, is as follows.

    A typical light activation is done based on time of day, and motion detection. So, of a pir detects motion at 7pm in December, it k ows it's dark and someone has come on, so it turns on the light. It then starts a countdown timer to turn off the light, and unless motion is detected again in the interim, it turns off the light. If it detects motion while the timer is still running, then it reloads the timer thereby extending the on time.

    This approach works very well, in rooms with medium to high traffic, and on its own is auffeceint to get good functionality, the timer length can be tweaked to improve based on traffic etc (eg, kitchen has the timer set to ten minutes, bit the corridor only three).


    Anyway, the only room where I see an exception to the above is the bathroom. As of someone goes into a bathroom, and you kick off a timer, they erm,.. may be motionless for a whole, and in a sitting position ;-) or, in the bath or shower. So in this scenario, the room could have someone in it motionless from 2 minutes to an hour, so something more is needed to make it work flawlessly.

    The solution is to add a door sensor to the bathroom, so, when when the door is opened, the light turns on and the timer starts etc. But, of the bathroom pir senses motion (no pun intended ) and the door is closed, then it pauses the timer until the door is opened again. A spring loaded door closer makes this work seamlessly as well


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    http://www.cytech.biz


    http://www.comfortforums.com

    www.velbus.eu



    And a link to a guide I did on my own system when I upgraded my system from using X10 for controlling lights to using velbus.


    https://drive.google.com/a/glenegare.com/file/d/0B1zlDoqP2HdxUGVJdnY3WGtYamM/view?usp=drivesdk

    Thanks a lot for this. Looks like I have some reading up to do... sounds like this may get the dual HA and security use I'm hoping to have to deploy only one set of sensors. I'm pretty strongly leaning towards Smartthings as my hub as the community is so productive it seems what little it does not do officially will be adequately provided for.

    So if I understand there are two scenarios for dual HA and security usage of the sensors: A) wire the sensors to the Comfort system and it will relay them to Smartthings (through some potentially complex solution, e.g. Raspberry Pi) and B) use zwave sensors (which I would still need to run cables to for usb power as batteries is just too flaky an idea for me) and will those sensors speak to both the Comfort and Smartthings sensors? Actually typing that out makes me realise if it was just one way comms, that might work, but cant see it with two way as both hubs may be out of sync?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    wefordman2, your mentioning Comfort on another thread I posted on a few days ago gave me deja vu and reminded me of this thread and that I hadn't fully read up on it.

    Now I have, I can see the importance of Comfort interacting with SmartThings/HomeAssistant is lower than I had thought as it seems Comfort can actually do most of what I want the HA hub to do, i.e. lighting control in conjunction with security control (alarm arm = turn off lights and arm, holiday mode = arm alarm, turn on lights at intervals to make it look like we're still home etc.).

    So I'm almost ready to commit to going with Comfort for our security alarm - I'm asking myself what are the possible downsides as it seems to function well as an alarm, so worst case is it ends up being used for just that? Main question is, why is it so little known, so infrequently mentioned on HA forums etc.?

    Other main concern is from the Comfort forums, the add-in that integrates with SmartThings does not seem to be in active development? I'm worried I'll end up not being able to get SmartThings to do the things Comfort can't and still have it acting as one holistic system (e.g. let's say ST can control my air-to-water heat pump but Comfort can't).

    Read wexfordman's highly informative PDF on Comfort + Velbus (thanks!) and it does have me intrigued. I already stockpiled 20 x Fibaro zwave dimmers + 20 x Fibaro RGBW Controllers for zwave control of LED strips, but this has me intrigued as to whether Velbus or another bus system would be good for me. Can Comfort have both a Velbus and a Zwave expansion board at the same time or just one?

    I'm now leaning towards having duplicate lighting wiring circuits: 3-wire (including neutral) 220v for the fallback to traditional lighting if ever needed, and also supports zwave option (though Fibaro can make do with 2 wires, 3 in new install is best practice I've read). I'll then run CAT5e/6 to every light switch to enable the option of going with a bus system such as Velbus.

    Meeting my electrician brother-in-law shortly to have him help draw out the high-level wiring diagrams in play which will help me picture the possible setups. With Velbus is it CAT5/6 to every light switch all connected to a central cable called bus or anything much else?

    Velbus also seems little known, is there a risk of it disappearing, and where's good for buying it? Was looking at www.laser.com for Comfort gear. How does Velbus compare to other similar options on price, e.g. is CBUS close or way more expensive?

    Maybe I should look at how much of what I want to do can be done by Velbus (e.g. control of blinds, heating, door locks) and zwave from Comfort directly and then see if there's anything significant left out which I'd then need to rely on SmartThings for? Would be very excited at the prospect of Comfort being as good as it sounds so thanks for the info!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    wefordman2, your mentioning Comfort on another thread I posted on a few days ago gave me deja vu and reminded me of this thread and that I hadn't fully read up on it.

    Now I have, I can see the importance of Comfort interacting with SmartThings/HomeAssistant is lower than I had thought as it seems Comfort can actually do most of what I want the HA hub to do, i.e. lighting control in conjunction with security control (alarm arm = turn off lights and arm, holiday mode = arm alarm, turn on lights at intervals to make it look like we're still home etc.).

    So I'm almost ready to commit to going with Comfort for our security alarm - I'm asking myself what are the possible downsides as it seems to function well as an alarm, so worst case is it ends up being used for just that? Main question is, why is it so little known, so infrequently mentioned on HA forums etc.?

    Other main concern is from the Comfort forums, the add-in that integrates with SmartThings does not seem to be in active development? I'm worried I'll end up not being able to get SmartThings to do the things Comfort can't and still have it acting as one holistic system (e.g. let's say ST can control my air-to-water heat pump but Comfort can't).

    Read wexfordman's highly informative PDF on Comfort + Velbus (thanks!) and it does have me intrigued. I already stockpiled 20 x Fibaro zwave dimmers + 20 x Fibaro RGBW Controllers for zwave control of LED strips, but this has me intrigued as to whether Velbus or another bus system would be good for me. Can Comfort have both a Velbus and a Zwave expansion board at the same time or just one?

    I'm now leaning towards having duplicate lighting wiring circuits: 3-wire (including neutral) 220v for the fallback to traditional lighting if ever needed, and also supports zwave option (though Fibaro can make do with 2 wires, 3 in new install is best practice I've read). I'll then run CAT5e/6 to every light switch to enable the option of going with a bus system such as Velbus.

    Meeting my electrician brother-in-law shortly to have him help draw out the high-level wiring diagrams in play which will help me picture the possible setups. With Velbus is it CAT5/6 to every light switch all connected to a central cable called bus or anything much else?

    Velbus also seems little known, is there a risk of it disappearing, and where's good for buying it? Was looking at www.laser.com for Comfort gear. How does Velbus compare to other similar options on price, e.g. is CBUS close or way more expensive?

    Maybe I should look at how much of what I want to do can be done by Velbus (e.g. control of blinds, heating, door locks) and zwave from Comfort directly and then see if there's anything significant left out which I'd then need to rely on SmartThings for? Would be very excited at the prospect of Comfort being as good as it sounds so thanks for the info!


    Hi Frank,

    I prob need to give a more detailed reply, but can't via my mobile sorry, I'll get back to you later, but a couple of quick points

    1) I use nest for my heating, I used to use comfort for that, but moved to nest a bout two years ago. I genuinely think for heating, a dedicated system is the way to go, they do it best. Now if you can get that system to interface to others then even better. Comfort will do your heating, but I just don't think it or any other systems will do it as well as a dedicated smart heating system.
    2) velbus, is made by velleman, it's around for decades afaik, but you raise a good point. When putting electronics into bricks and mortar, the electronics will always be the first thing to go, or need replacing or updating. The point I think is to ensure that your house can upgrade and take other systems. While my system is velbus, and I've made this ppint before, the wiring backbone behind it will work with most other hardwired systems such as cbus, eib, loxone, idratek etc.

    I can rip out all my velbus modules and repallce them with a different system tomorrow, as the wiring is the same. That's abut as future proof as you can make it I think.

    3) comfort smart things interface is released, but as a diy addition, a fully supported consumer version is being developed.. as it stands at the moment, comfort has given me access to my velbus system via Google home using the smart things interface.

    4) a hardwired system is the way to go, but the one drawback I think velbis has it it does not yet have an official support for Alexa or Google hom e, but they are developing one I am told.

    Regards

    Eamon


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    Thanks for that wexfordman2, very helpful as always. Very informative session with my brother-in-law yesterday, he lives opposite side of the country but has kindly offered to review wiring plans and provide advice. He has a Lutron system in his house so was able to show me his wiring setup which helped explain things when he sketched out simple wiring diagrams to teach me the principles. He was able to pick up 2nd hand Lutron parts on ebay over a year for cheap, we're 1st fixing 2nd week January so quite limited in time available before we have to make wiring decisions.

    Bottom line is after yesterday's session, I have decided to go with Comfort for the alarm and Velbus or another similar tech for the lighting and power controls. Brother-in-law recommended that every individual lighting circuit (may contain a group of lights) be wired directly back to the fuseboard via a Twin & Earth cable with a Cat5/6 cable also run from the fuseboard directly to each switch. This allows housing the Velbus/other dimmer/relay modules back at the fuseboard for easy configuration.

    Then a single brown live wire is run from each switch back to the fuseboard also. This switched live will be redundant in Plan A, but in the event the smart module doesn't work out, it will allow for taking it out of the equation and using the switched live to have it wired as a traditional setup, so a solid Plan B fallback.

    Still plenty to read up on, but feel good about the general direction this is headed. Do have a few questions you may be able to help with:

    A. Where did you buy your Velbus gear and what caused you to choose it over other options (price, ease of install/use etc.)?

    B. Is there anything Comfort cannot do that a traditional alarm can (e.g. detection of wire tampering/cutting)?

    C. With Comfort do you just use standard components that you would on a traditional alarm (cable, shock sensors, PIRs - i.e. low cost), or do you need to get smart versions of these components in order for Comfort to be able to identify events from each one individually? Laser.com don't seem to have the shocks/PIR sensors so I wonder if that's because traditional gear can be used?

    D. How do I determine how many inputs I need for the Comfort panel - is it one input per sensor or per zone (e.g. if I group all shock sensors in kitchen/sitting/dining room that's one input)?

    E. What way is the Velbus bus cable wired - if every module is housed at the fuseboard, is there one CAT5e cable connecting them all there (in addition to the cables going to each switch)? I didn't quite follow the Krone patch panel setup in your PDF but would like to as I gather it increases flexibility and removes need to open the 220v box.

    F. Heating: we will have an air-to-water heat pump powering A) underfloor heating (all downstairs) B) 3 x heated towel rails and C) 3 x aluminium radiators upstairs. Is Nest best for this setup?


    Next step is to start listing out the full details of wiring and smart home capabilities in each room and then use this to build out the wiring diagram. That'll be a big piece of work but feel good about getting started on it now, thanks a bunch for the priceless advice.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Frank,

    What part of tje country are you in, I'm in east cork of your around this way, your quite welcome to have a look at my setup, and see how I did ot, as well as learn from my mistakes ?

    1) comfort is fully functional as am ala system.
    2) I went for velbus for 3 reasons, cost, functionality, and compatibility (the wiring system and its interface to comfort.

    3) comfort uses standard off the shelf sensors such as pirs and door shock sensors etc.

    4)/number of inputs would need to be worked out, but a pir in each room, and sensors on all external doors. None of these would be commonned up, so each is am input to comfort. Window sensors could be commonned up within a room.

    Have a look at the comfort forum too, but your starting point should bow be working out your comfort components, which would be at least the main board, a Lem expansion board, a velbus ucm, an Ethernet ucm, and door keypads.

    Use dualtec pir in each oms with fire or stoves.


    Heating using heat pumps, I am not sure of nest is the solution for you for this type of system, you need to thresh that out with your heat pump installer but nest I don't think is designed for heat pump systems


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    Your very generous wexfordman2, much appreciated. I'm in Dublin, in-laws in the West and baby #3 on the way so window to swing down to Cork is minimal!

    I've been doing a far bit of reading up on Comfort and like what I see, good info on their website resources section (e.g. 99 slides from Comfort II training session in 2015) and various guides on the website give a lot of answers I needed.

    They make it clear you can use normal alarm cable (8 cores best) and any burglar alarm components which is fantastic - expands options, increases reliability of the sensors that'll be used for home automation (in addition to security) and is cheaper than zwave components. So I can just go to a supplier like CPC Farnell here and get ideas for components such as PIRs, magnetic sensors, shock sensors, beam sensors etc. and anything that works with a normal alarm works with Comfort? That's sweet if so.

    Looks like max inputs/outputs is 96. Given the level of items I'm planning, that may be a constraint, but I haven't fully figured out what the RIO (Remote Input Output) functionality is - that gives an extra >100 inputs/outputs but they can't be alarm sensors, so seems you could have it handling say relays for sockets directly but not counting towards alarm logic - though as I'll have Velbus managing that stuff I don't need to utilise what would be otherwise quite beneficial functionality? And no restriction on number of items Velbus manages, it's just anything directly controlled by Comfort?

    The site also made it clear Comfort can have up to 8 expansion modules, they are not mutually exclusive. So I'll have UCM/GSM, UCM/Ethernet (think UCM/USB is redundant if you have ethernet?), the Velbus expansion board, the zwave expansion board and then figure out the number of local and slave expansion boards I need once I've done my full itinerary list.

    Does Comfort have full 2-way control of Velbus (i.e. a Velbus sensor can trigger alarm, and Comfort can turn on/off Velbus lights etc.)? Think it does though wording on the slides was a little ambiguous, just want to confirm.

    Do I need a normal analog landline (wasn't planning on having one but will add if the functionality is worth it)? Or once I have the GSM addon am I covered (guessing a pay-as-you-go SIM covers that)? If someone wants to cut my broadband cable and use a GSM jammer, they're determined (and rare) thieves so they're not going to be stopped by any alarm so not too worried about leaving out landline (as GSM and email/app notifications gives outbound notification over 2 protocols, don't feel 3rd is necessary).

    Can you let me know (PM if preferrable) where you got your Velbus kit and rough price as I can't find much online other than a contact request form on their website?

    Gotta say, absolutely loving the sound of Comfort + Velbus so far - both in terms of functionality and the reliability you have flagged....something that just works all the time is a big benefit in this realm. Enjoying the research trail so far!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Just reading a bit about the Comfort system and seems cool.

    If I'm not mistaken, you can have it connect to SmartThings to trigger routines in SmartThings and to allow you to use the alarm sensors in Smart Things.

    So for instance, if the alarm detects an intrusion, it can do what an alarm is supposed to do, turn on the siren/bell, send you a notification, etc. But it can also inform smartthings, so that Smart Things can for instance turn on Philips Hue lights, play sirens through speakers etc.

    Also it seems it can notify ST of events on it's inputs, for instance a PIR in a room detects motion, it tells ST and ST triggers Hue lights, etc.

    Finally you can even arm/disarm the system via ST.

    This is exactly what I think I would want from an Alarm System in terms of Home Automation. Work as a self contained, solid alarm system, but also play nice with other HA ecosystems via API's.

    It seems it can also directly interface with other HA devices such as lights using Z-Wave, etc., though that is something I can prefer my security system not do. I'd rather let each ecosystem do what they do best, but also then "integrate" with one another over API's.

    But the SmartThings integration seems exactly the type of integration I'd want from an alarm system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Your very generous wexfordman2, much appreciated. I'm in Dublin, in-laws in the West and baby #3 on the way so window to swing down to Cork is minimal!

    I've been doing a far bit of reading up on Comfort and like what I see, good info on their website resources section (e.g. 99 slides from Comfort II training session in 2015) and various guides on the website give a lot of answers I needed.

    They make it clear you can use normal alarm cable (8 cores best) and any burglar alarm components which is fantastic - expands options, increases reliability of the sensors that'll be used for home automation (in addition to security) and is cheaper than zwave components. So I can just go to a supplier like CPC Farnell here and get ideas for components such as PIRs, magnetic sensors, shock sensors, beam sensors etc. and anything that works with a normal alarm works with Comfort? That's sweet if so.

    Looks like max inputs/outputs is 96. Given the level of items I'm planning, that may be a constraint, but I haven't fully figured out what the RIO (Remote Input Output) functionality is - that gives an extra >100 inputs/outputs but they can't be alarm sensors, so seems you could have it handling say relays for sockets directly but not counting towards alarm logic - though as I'll have Velbus managing that stuff I don't need to utilise what would be otherwise quite beneficial functionality? And no restriction on number of items Velbus manages, it's just anything directly controlled by Comfort?

    The site also made it clear Comfort can have up to 8 expansion modules, they are not mutually exclusive. So I'll have UCM/GSM, UCM/Ethernet (think UCM/USB is redundant if you have ethernet?), the Velbus expansion board, the zwave expansion board and then figure out the number of local and slave expansion boards I need once I've done my full itinerary list.

    Does Comfort have full 2-way control of Velbus (i.e. a Velbus sensor can trigger alarm, and Comfort can turn on/off Velbus lights etc.)? Think it does though wording on the slides was a little ambiguous, just want to confirm.

    Do I need a normal analog landline (wasn't planning on having one but will add if the functionality is worth it)? Or once I have the GSM addon am I covered (guessing a pay-as-you-go SIM covers that)? If someone wants to cut my broadband cable and use a GSM jammer, they're determined (and rare) thieves so they're not going to be stopped by any alarm so not too worried about leaving out landline (as GSM and email/app notifications gives outbound notification over 2 protocols, don't feel 3rd is necessary).

    Can you let me know (PM if preferrable) where you got your Velbus kit and rough price as I can't find much online other than a contact request form on their website?

    Gotta say, absolutely loving the sound of Comfort + Velbus so far - both in terms of functionality and the reliability you have flagged....something that just works all the time is a big benefit in this realm. Enjoying the research trail so far!

    Hi Frank

    Velbus to comfort is two way, it updates its status to comfort when you activate a switch locally for example.

    Check out if z wave is two way for comfort though, why are you adding z wave ?

    Comfort for me does most if not all of the automation logic, all my lights are velbus with the exception of 4 Philips hue devices. Using the St RPI interface is what makes all my velbus appear on smart things, and so now also gives me voice control via google home. I say goodnight google and the system turns off all the lights, arms the alarm system to night mode,/and sets up some of the zones to activate lights and not activate alarm (hall, bathroom etc).

    Comfort is not what I would call user friendly to program, it takes a bit of getting used to.

    In excess of 100 inputs is a lot, I have 24 and use 22 of them, thinking of getting the remaining two to activate my hue lights from the wall switch. If I was to go again, I would add more sensors, but mainly to the windows from a security perspective, I have enough for automation.


    My pirs generally turn on lights when its dark and the alarm is not set. They do this based on a timer, so if motion is not detected again within 3 minutes it turns the light off again. This varies from room to room and the timer varies as well.

    On some of my internal doors to bathrooms, I have an internal recessed door sensor. The reason is that the bathroom tends to be a room where you sit still for a while with no motion :-). I have the bathroom pir and the bathroom door sensor working so that if the door is closed and the pir activates, it leaves the light on until the door opens again. Worth doing, cos otherwise
    people are left sitting in the dark :-).

    To make this work better I put chain pulls in the bathroom internal doors so the doors close automatically, makes the logic work better.

    I use velbus vmb4ry modules which are 4 relay modules with 4 push button inputs on them which the wall switches are wired to with cat5. These modules are not available anymore, the newer module does not have the pb inputs, so you have to get a vmb7in for your inouts (7 inputs).

    Bought mY velbus modules online in the UK will pm you the detail


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Here you go, this is where I bought them, good few years ago now though, they seem to have dropped in price a bit.

    http://www.theelectronicsshop.co.uk/contents/en-uk/p354.html#Sidemap


  • Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭stuartkee


    I was reading up on the alarm control panel and it can't take shock sensors directly into the panel as it has no analizer board in it so it's a contacts and pir only panel unless you buy another 3rd party component . What's the warranty and is it sold here do they have good tech support as it will be needed . So before it can close my curtain and switch on my light is it a proper alarm that can do what the others do I fear not another gimmick it seems and very importantly is it up to standard ?



    Hi Frank

    Velbus to comfort is two way, it updates its status to comfort when you activate a switch locally for example.

    Check out if z wave is two way for comfort though, why are you adding z wave ?

    Comfort for me does most if not all of the automation logic, all my lights are velbus with the exception of 4 Philips hue devices. Using the St RPI interface is what makes all my velbus appear on smart things, and so now also gives me voice control via google home. I say goodnight google and the system turns off all the lights, arms the alarm system to night mode,/and sets up some of the zones to activate lights and not activate alarm (hall, bathroom etc).

    Comfort is not what I would call user friendly to program, it takes a bit of getting used to.

    In excess of 100 inputs is a lot, I have 24 and use 22 of them, thinking of getting the remaining two to activate my hue lights from the wall switch. If I was to go again, I would add more sensors, but mainly to the windows from a security perspective, I have enough for automation.


    My pirs generally turn on lights when its dark and the alarm is not set. They do this based on a timer, so if motion is not detected again within 3 minutes it turns the light off again. This varies from room to room and the timer varies as well.

    On some of my internal doors to bathrooms, I have an internal recessed door sensor. The reason is that the bathroom tends to be a room where you sit still for a while with no motion :-). I have the bathroom pir and the bathroom door sensor working so that if the door is closed and the pir activates, it leaves the light on until the door opens again. Worth doing, cos otherwise
    people are left sitting in the dark :-).

    To make this work better I put chain pulls in the bathroom internal doors so the doors close automatically, makes the logic work better.

    I use velbus vmb4ry modules which are 4 relay modules with 4 push button inputs on them which the wall switches are wired to with cat5. These modules are not available anymore, the newer module does not have the pb inputs, so you have to get a vmb7in for your inouts (7 inputs).

    Bought mY velbus modules online in the UK will pm you the detail


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    stuartkee wrote: »
    I was reading up on the alarm control panel and it can't take shock sensors directly into the panel as it has no analizer board in it so it's a contacts and pir only panel unless you buy another 3rd party component . What's the warranty and is it sold here do they have good tech support as it will be needed . So before it can close my curtain and switch on my light is it a proper alarm that can do what the others do I fear not another gimmick it seems and very importantly is it up to standard ?

    Hi Stuart,

    There are local installers as far as I am aware, I think one was based in Limerick from what I remember.

    Here is a link to some compliance documents, I am not up to date with what these are, but the system is well used in the UK, and has a good number of commercial installers.

    http://www.cytech.biz/compliance_with_en5013_pd6662_and_bs8243.html?category_id=126



    I have it since I built my house in 2000/2001, and it has been very reliable. Mine is a self install, so from that perspective is not compliant, but I am fairly sure that it fully meets any standards required here if it is professionally installed.

    The panel itself has been out nearly 30 years or more also, and technical support, from my experience is excellent, as and end user and an installer (of my own system) Taking a look at the comfort forum will show this for example.

    Shock sensors, I dont have any, but perhaps you could explain, as to me, a shock sensor reports back via a simple relay no ? Its a no/nc circuit ?

    I've asked the question on the forum anyway as you poked my curiosity :-)


    Again, the reason we are discussing this panel, is its functionality with respect to smart homes, interfacing to other standards etc. I think the panel comes into its own when you look at the logic and automation features of it. If the system was professionally installed, I would think the installer would lock down the ability of the owner to change or customise the automation features, but considering the forum qe are in, I think its an ideal device for many here


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Answer just back from the forum in the shock sensor

    http://www.comfortforums.com/view_topic.php?id=4825&forum_id=127&jump_to=22755#p22755

    It will accept a standard shock sensor and you set the sensitivity for the sensor (with a number of templates already existing), or if it is a sensor with a processor built in, then you wire it up to a zone and set it as a standard alarm type.

    Told you support was good, that was a quick reply on their forum :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    Hi Frank

    Velbus to comfort is two way, it updates its status to comfort when you activate a switch locally for example.

    Check out if z wave is two way for comfort though, why are you adding z wave ?

    Comfort for me does most if not all of the automation logic, all my lights are velbus with the exception of 4 Philips hue devices. Using the St RPI interface is what makes all my velbus appear on smart things, and so now also gives me voice control via google home. I say goodnight google and the system turns off all the lights, arms the alarm system to night mode,/and sets up some of the zones to activate lights and not activate alarm (hall, bathroom etc).

    Comfort is not what I would call user friendly to program, it takes a bit of getting used to.

    In excess of 100 inputs is a lot, I have 24 and use 22 of them, thinking of getting the remaining two to activate my hue lights from the wall switch. If I was to go again, I would add more sensors, but mainly to the windows from a security perspective, I have enough for automation.


    My pirs generally turn on lights when its dark and the alarm is not set. They do this based on a timer, so if motion is not detected again within 3 minutes it turns the light off again. This varies from room to room and the timer varies as well.

    On some of my internal doors to bathrooms, I have an internal recessed door sensor. The reason is that the bathroom tends to be a room where you sit still for a while with no motion :-). I have the bathroom pir and the bathroom door sensor working so that if the door is closed and the pir activates, it leaves the light on until the door opens again. Worth doing, cos otherwise
    people are left sitting in the dark :-).

    To make this work better I put chain pulls in the bathroom internal doors so the doors close automatically, makes the logic work better.

    I use velbus vmb4ry modules which are 4 relay modules with 4 push button inputs on them which the wall switches are wired to with cat5. These modules are not available anymore, the newer module does not have the pb inputs, so you have to get a vmb7in for your inouts (7 inputs).

    Bought mY velbus modules online in the UK will pm you the detail

    Very informative, thanks. I'm adding Zwave mainly to control the 15-20 places I plan to use Fibaro RGBW modules (internal and external) - if I can find a wired dimmer that'll control these in terms of colour and brightness, that would be great, but will go with the Fibaros I have pre-purchased if not. I'd probably end up adding a few zwave plug-in power sockets for control of particular appliances but also to improve coverage of the zwave network. I guess I just foresee there being new modules that come onstream in the future that'll be zwave (possibly zigbee) and will come out in that protocol before the likes of Velbus.

    That said, I wasn't giving much hope to the SmartThings->Comfort interface as I've been disappointed with similar add-ons for other systems in the past. But if it can do what it promises, then I can leave zwave control to SmartThings and then trigger that side of things from there - e.g. use a PIR wired to Comfort to send an ON signal to SmartThings to switch on the garden LED strips controlled via the Fibaro RGBW modules.

    So I hear bk's point about having separate systems, but I mainly agree with that in terms of control of the outputs (lights, sockets, heating etc.) being controlled by the HA system - the more the security system's sensors can be reused to send the triggers to the HA system, the better - that for me is the true sweet spot. I'm happy with breaking that model to have Comfort control Velbus directly due to wexfordman's experience in finding this rock solid, and also doesn't seem to be much mention of Velbus on the SmartThings side.

    Velbus does appear to be quite affordable vs other options and the news I can use standard alarm sensors with Comfort really opens up possibilities in terms of affordability and functionality. e.g. More options for external PIRs than a HA system offers, can use beam sensors for definitive detection of someone/car entering the driveway and side passageway vs just relying on PIRs (can build an alarm rule (IF drivewaybeam triggered AND (PIR OR ShockSensor triggered within 3mins) == SOUND ALARM)). Can also look into magnetic field detectors that detect a car entering driveway.

    Like the tips about internal door sensors - will look into those. What type did you use, wired or wireless? 3 young kids so may hold off auto-close for a few years for fear of little hands getting caught.

    I'm going to start on my itinerary list now so I'll have a better idea on what quantity I need, hoping I can get consolidation by having one window sensor provide open/close (magnetic contact) and shock sensing in one unit.

    I'm half tempted to start looking up KNX and CBUS to learn how they are wired and to price them up to get a comparison, but on the other hand, it's more important I build out my wiring requirements at this point than spend time on that. Plus, from initial review, seems KNX can be wired in much the same way as Velbus, i.e. back at the fuseboard with DIN rail modules and only CAT5 going to the switches, with the difference being it needs dedicated KNX cable for the bus connecting all the modules at the fuseboard. If that's the case, I can price that up over next few weeks without delaying my first fix wiring.

    I was a programmer back in the day so should be fine with the configuration side of things, just need to get the cables in place to enable it all.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    There are local installers as far as I am aware, I think one was based in Limerick from what I remember.

    Can you provide me with details of local installers (by PM if you prefer) ??

    Great posts BTW :)
    Many thanks.


Advertisement