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Post primary return to schools roadmap

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    #152
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭2011abc


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    LWR is elected by staff but the aide is just someone the principal chooses and it's a paid position, well paid actually.

    €143 a day up to max 20 days in August .Brilliant if you consider it an "allowance" , ballpark equivalent of a Principal's allowance in 600 teacher school.Lousy however if considered as 'pay' ,€70 a day 'into hand ' ( God knows when but I wouldn't bet much on it being this side of Christmas - and could easily involve many grovelling visits to secretary / principal or even attempting to ring salaries section on the Tuesday between 230 and 3pm they answer phones "Due to the high volume of calls"- not chronic understaffing ,ha!) ) To put it another way that's €100 a day LESS than I get as a near retired teacher with a post .Why bother especially when it's a perfect example of increasing 'unaccountability' , a dream for principals to reward their less 'awkward' staff .Hopefully it will be given to younger staff , already on the approx €37k per annum its equivalent of .
    Anyway I consider recharging ones batteries over much of Summer hols to be part of my duties as a teacher .I reckon many of those upskilling etc could be prone to weeks or even fortnights off sick later in year burnt out ( hopefully only temporarily )


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    #153
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭2011abc


    LW2018 wrote: »
    I think there’ll be a change in AP2 duties in schools this year to take into consideration reopening of schools

    Oh sweet Lord ..."Covid19 officer ,Covid19 liaison , Covid 19 hand hygiene official ,Covid 19 social distancing monitor " etc


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    #154
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    We just went through a round of interviews and 6 new posts on a small school just hired over the summer. You can imagine the war over who got them. September was going to be hard enough as was without the inevitable "who's job is this" discussion


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    #155
    linguist
    Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭linguist


    2011abc wrote: »
    €143 a day up to max 20 days in August .Brilliant if you consider it an "allowance" , ballpark equivalent of a Principal's allowance in 600 teacher school.

    I think that's the reopening aide, not the Lead Worker Representative.


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    #156
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    The LWR is an all year position, Aide is just a few weeks


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    #157
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Bananaleaf wrote: »

    I've big issues with the kids having base rooms. As a secondary school student, I went to a school where the students had base rooms and the teachers moved. And as a relatively unpopular kid (not one of the cool ones) those 3-5mins when there was no adult in the room were the worst times of the day

    When a teacher pops out of the room for a minute or two, there's a bit of opportunistic messing that will go on. But when kids know that they can expect to be left to their own devices for 3-5mins every 40mins-1hr per day, they will come prepared. Believe me, I speak from experience!!


    Yeah ,can you imagine how wound up they'll be last before lunch or perish the thought last of day ?!


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    #158
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Bananaleaf wrote: »

    I went to a school where the students had base rooms and the teachers moved. Kids came armed to the teeth with projectiles in their bags for when teacher was gone. It wasn't all of us doing it and it wasn't being done all of the time, but it was still an uncomfortable enough experience for me to remember it well, 20 years later, and I'd consider myself hardy enough.

    From bullied waif to projectile wielding hooligan in two or three pages of a thread ?! :-)


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    #159
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    2011abc wrote: »
    €143 a day up to max 20 days in August .Brilliant if you consider it an "allowance" , ballpark equivalent of a Principal's allowance in 600 teacher school.Lousy however if considered as 'pay' ,€70 a day 'into hand ' ( God knows when but I wouldn't bet much on it being this side of Christmas - and could easily involve many grovelling visits to secretary / principal or even attempting to ring salaries section on the Tuesday between 230 and 3pm they answer phones "Due to the high volume of calls"- not chronic understaffing ,ha!) ) To put it another way that's €100 a day LESS than I get as a near retired teacher with a post .Why bother especially when it's a perfect example of increasing 'unaccountability' , a dream for principals to reward their less 'awkward' staff .Hopefully it will be given to younger staff , already on the approx €37k per annum its equivalent of .
    Anyway I consider recharging ones batteries over much of Summer hols to be part of my duties as a teacher .I reckon many of those upskilling etc could be prone to weeks or even fortnights off sick later in year burnt out ( hopefully only temporarily )

    I done the calculated grades aide and got paid in full before I was even finished the job. I think funds are being distributed to schools immediately for this also. I also got significantly more than 70 a day into my hand for the job.

    This is a max of 20 days day for someone. Nice money earner imo.


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    #160
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    2011abc wrote: »
    From bullied waif to projectile wielding hooligan in two or three pages of a thread ?! :-)

    I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at? Apologies in advance if you're not getting at anything. There can be a lot of back and forth in the teaching forum so sometimes I think I am prone to jump to conclusions ....

    But yes there those who will be bullied easier if students are left in class unsupervised.

    Not every child in school is bullied or a bully though. Some are mates who love to have a mess.

    Some will bring stuff into school with them to keep them entertained in the break in class. It might be sweets and cans of energy drink, it might be tennis balls to lob off the walls. When I was in school there was a lad who once brought fruit to launch off the blackboard.

    There will also be loads who don't do any of that and will just get up and go over to their friends for a quick gossip and a chat before the next class starts. But in some mad twist of events, it turns out this the one we are most worried about them doing


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    #161
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    I done the calculated grades aide and got paid in full before I was even finished the job. I think funds are being distributed to schools immediately for this also. I also got significantly more than 70 a day into my hand for the job.

    This is a max of 20 days day for someone. Nice money earner imo.

    It still hasn't been advertised in our place. Does it have to be, anyone know? Or can the principal just give it to someone they want to? It does seem like a handy earner alright. Are you doing the heavy lifting or just coordinating it?


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    #162
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    It still hasn't been advertised in our place. Does it have to be, anyone know? Or can the principal just give it to someone they want to? It does seem like a handy earner alright. Are you doing the heavy lifting or just coordinating it?

    I don't think it has to be advertised. Wasn't here. But I hear some schools are or have advertised it. Depends on management I assume. I haven't started yet tbh but I'd say a bit of both. Not sure what it entails. I'm long enough at home now I don't mind.


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    #163
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    Not advertised in our place. We got an update email to say that X will be taking on the LWR role, good friend of the principal. The email also included a request to start thinking about what sports teams we would like to be involved with if competitions are running.


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    #164
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    scrubs33 wrote: »
    Not advertised in our place. We got an update email to say that X will be taking on the LWR role, good friend of the principal. The email also included a request to start thinking about what sports teams we would like to be involved with if competitions are running.

    Really? The LWR has to be advertised as far as I know. Its not at the discretion of the principal at all. The aide is different. The LWR will be a huge role this year.


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    #165
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    I don't think it has to be advertised. Wasn't here. But I hear some schools are or have advertised it. Depends on management I assume. I haven't started yet tbh but I'd say a bit of both. Not sure what it entails. I'm long enough at home now I don't mind.

    It does, not only does it have to be advertised but all staff (not just teachers) get one vote each on who gets it. The person appointed is responsible for all staff, it's not a teaching related post. At the end of the guidelines there is a template email that principals were supposed to use to advertise the post to all staff.


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    #166
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    It does, not only does it have to be advertised but all staff (not just teachers) get one vote each on who gets it. The person appointed is responsible for all staff, it's not a teaching related post. At the end of the guidelines there is a template email that principals were supposed to use to advertise the post to all staff.

    Yeah that's it. Appointing someone without a vote is just not on. No principal should get away with that. Maybe the poster meant it was the aide job that was given.


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    #167
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,041 ✭✭✭combat14


    who can teachers, parents, students sue if covid 19 health and safety guidelines not implemented correctly .. and people start to fall ill or possibly die from this known risk

    the principal, BOM, ETBs, Dept. of Education, Minsiter for Education ...?!

    any ideas


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    #168
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    scrubs33 wrote: »
    Not advertised in our place. We got an update email to say that X will be taking on the LWR role, good friend of the principal. The email also included a request to start thinking about what sports teams we would like to be involved with if competitions are running.

    LWR role is meant to be advertised and a vote to take place if more than one interested party. Issues arises though as to what to do if no one wants it.

    Are you sure you aren't mixing it up with the Covid aide position that is available for a max of 20 days over the month of August?


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    #169
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    LWR role is meant to be advertised and a vote to take place if more than one interested party. Issues arises though as to what to do if no one wants it.

    Are you sure you aren't mixing it up with the Covid aide position that is available for a max of 20 days over the month of August?

    We got an email about it yesterday evening looking for applicants.


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    #170
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    LWR role is meant to be advertised and a vote to take place if more than one interested party. Issues arises though as to what to do if no one wants it.

    Are you sure you aren't mixing it up with the Covid aide position that is available for a max of 20 days over the month of August?

    No unfortunately it's par for the course and has happened before with other positions as well. Advertising is for the telly it seems!! Very young staff, lots of part time contracts so no-one is willing to rock the boat as there will be a few posts available in the next while as the few 'senior' members retire.


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    #171
    ClydeTallyBump
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭ClydeTallyBump


    I haven't heard anything to date regarding reopening in my class.

    Just to confirm does the LWR at post primary level get 2 hours off their timetable a week? As in, are you down 19 hours 20mins full timetable?


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    #172
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    ClydeTallyBump wrote: »
    I haven't heard anything to date regarding reopening in my class.

    Just to confirm does the LWR at post primary level get 2 hours off their timetable a week? As in, are you down 19 hours 20mins full timetable?

    Think that's the case yes. If there are to be 2 LWRs in a large school they'll prob use one teaching/one non-teaching person to fill position


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    #173
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    How are principals meant to fill the 2 hours from the person's timetable in September after someone is appointed to this role by vote? Once again students will lose out on a qualified teacher and someone most likely unqualified will be slotted in to take a class or even worse it will come from support hours all because the DES don't want to pay people. Disgraceful.


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    #174
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    How are principals meant to fill the 2 hours from the person's timetable in September after someone is appointed to this role by vote? Once again students will lose out on a qualified teacher and someone most likely unqualified will be slotted in to take a class or even worse it will come from support hours all because the DES don't want to pay people. Disgraceful.

    The staff just better not want a Maths, Science, Home Ec, Irish, MFL teacher as their LWR!


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    #175
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    How are principals meant to fill the 2 hours from the person's timetable in September after someone is appointed to this role by vote? Once again students will lose out on a qualified teacher and someone most likely unqualified will be slotted in to take a class or even worse it will come from support hours all because the DES don't want to pay people. Disgraceful.

    It doesn't have to be a teacher, it could just as easily be the caretaker or secretary or a cleaner.

    There are a lot of people with 'filler' stuff on their timetable like SPHE, CSPE, non exam religion where that stuff is added to people's timetables at the last minute. It wouldn't make a huge difference to take that type of stuff off someone's timetable. There's often plenty of wriggle room with TY classes too.


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    #176
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    It doesn't have to be a teacher, it could just as easily be the caretaker or secretary or a cleaner.

    There are a lot of people with 'filler' stuff on their timetable like SPHE, CSPE, non exam religion where that stuff is added to people's timetables at the last minute. It wouldn't make a huge difference to take that type of stuff off someone's timetable. There's often plenty of wriggle room with TY classes too.

    Ancillary staff will be hard pushed with cleaning protocols as it is. Administrative and cleaning staff are already working tirelessly. It may be problematic to find those two hours for them.

    SPHE and CSPE have a place on the curriculum. They should be taught by an experienced team. The reason they are referred to as filler in schools is out of ignorance more than anything. A lot of "learning" going on in classrooms and pe halls across the country could be called "filler" if we are being honest. Memorising definitions and memorising scripts for pictures in Irish and being able to do little else are filler in my book.

    Classes moving to one hour means that SPHE and CSPE should not be viewed as filler. They get 50% of the time English or Maths may get in some years. Instead they should be taught with high expectations and should teach knowledge which is transferable to other subjects.

    Principals should not have to hand subjects off to unqualified teachers at the last minute because the department won't pay a tiny allowance with most of it going back in tax.


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    #177
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Ancillary staff will be hard pushed with cleaning protocols as it is. Administrative and cleaning staff are already working tirelessly. It may be problematic to find those two hours for them.

    SPHE and CSPE have a place on the curriculum. They should be taught by an experienced team. The reason they are referred to as filler in schools is out of ignorance more than anything. A lot of "learning" going on in classrooms and pe halls across the country could be called "filler" if we are being honest. Memorising definitions and memorising scripts for pictures in Irish and being able to do little else are filler in my book.

    Classes moving to one hour means that SPHE and CSPE should not be viewed as filler. They get 50% of the time English or Maths may get in some years. Instead they should be taught with high expectations and should teach knowledge which is transferable to other subjects.

    Principals should not have to hand subjects off to unqualified teachers at the last minute because the department won't pay a tiny allowance with most of it going back in tax.

    Not every school is moving to one hour, I only know of one personally in the north west where I am that has one hour classes.


    Whether CSPE/SPHE are taught by an experienced team or not, the reality is that they are the last thing slotted into the timetable and often a class doesn't have the same teacher from one year to the next. They are the most expendable classes on the timetable.

    Resource classes will be shifted around to fit too.

    Ancillary staff have as much say in this as teachers and are often better placed to see what needs to be done.

    Nobody said that classes will be handed off to unqualified teachers at the last minute. You are predicting that will happen. It may not.


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    #178
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Not every school is moving to one hour, I only know of one personally in the north west where I am that has one hour classes.


    Whether CSPE/SPHE are taught by an experienced team or not, the reality is that they are the last thing slotted into the timetable and often a class doesn't have the same teacher from one year to the next. They are the most expendable classes on the timetable.

    Resource classes will be shifted around to fit too.

    Ancillary staff have as much say in this as teachers and are often better placed to see what needs to be done.

    Nobody said that classes will be handed off to unqualified teachers at the last minute. You are predicting that will happen. It may not.

    It's not right but my experience of a schools has taught me what should be done and what is done are not always the same.

    I know in our school most of the people who could do this job effectively have jam packed timetables. Our Irish teacher is on full hours of Irish. We can't get a second teacher for love nor money. The dept should just make it a paid position, if someone from a department tight on teachers is elected but can't take it up that's very unfair


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    #179
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭amacca


    combat14 wrote: »
    who can teachers, parents, students sue if covid 19 health and safety guidelines not implemented correctly .. and people start to fall ill or possibly die from this known risk

    the principal, BOM, ETBs, Dept. of Education, Minsiter for Education ...?!

    any ideas

    Are you suggesting sole responsibility lies with the LWR?

    Ie: LWR = fall guy/patsy


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    #180
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    amacca wrote: »
    Are you suggesting sole responsibility lies with the LWR?

    Ie: LWR = fall guy/patsy

    It does specifically say in the guidelines that the LWR does not have any legal responsibilities for the job.


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    #181
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    Note that you have to vote on the LWR.

    Note that if you vote in a secretary or caretaker, their roles in your school will have to be 'reprioritised' to allow them to carry out the job of LWR. Think about what that might mean for your school

    Note that you are entitled to 2hrs off your timetable 'where possible' (or something to that effect) so careful there


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