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Road Signs.

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  • 28-10-2015 11:24pm
    #1
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭


    I'm just wondering, would it be any use complaining about the italics on basically every road sign? I sometimes can't read the writing and I find it really annoying, as Irish is the first language of the state.


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    #2
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I don't see the issue myself. The italic font isn't dramatically different from the other one.


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    #3
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    I understand it doesn't greatly differ, but I should be able to read both, would you not agree?


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    #4
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I agree, but I still feel there's no reason at all why you shouldn't be able to read the italic font.


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    #5
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    I will give an example.

    I was in a city, and I looked out my side window. I went to read the sign in Irish, but as the sign was small in general I couldn't see it and I completely missed it. Ever since I'm always reading the English but much prefer reading in Irish. I believe Irish being in italics is illegal anyway, would you think it would be any point reporting it?


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    #6
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Going by the Department of Transport traffic signs manual from 2010, these are the regulations:
      ALPHABETS 2.3.1 The alphabet prescribed for use on directional information signs is that known as “Transport Heavy”. The only exceptions in the use of this type face are the upper case 'A', 'M' and 'N' and the lower case 'a' and 'i' letters in the Irish script for which a special form is prescribed. 2.3.2 The Irish script is inclined at 15 degrees and also includes a fada (accent).
    • For bilingual signs, Irish script should always be
      positioned above its English equivalent. A clearance
      between the top of the English tiles and the bottom of the
      Irish tiles should be maintained.
    • The Irish and English language versions of place-names
      may be different in length.

    It is absolutely not illegal. I've no idea where you got that idea! :confused:


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    #7
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    I was misinformed, very sorry... I still wish it was larger though... Sorry about that, thanks for looking it up!


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I just find myself wondering why so many towns in Ireland with roundabouts also seem to have a place in them called Gach Treo Eile. :pac:


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    #9
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Caoimhgh1n wrote: »
    Sorry about that, thanks for looking it up!

    I never expected I'd be reading up on Irish road sign regulations at this hour on a Wednesday night! :D

    You might enjoy this article though. It seems to argue along the same line as your ideas. http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-why-not-give-irish-equal-status-on-our-road-signs-496587-Jun2012/


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    #10
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    An File wrote: »

    You might enjoy this article though. It seems to argue along the same line as your ideas.

    Go raibh míle maith agat! Tá brón orm arís. :)


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    #11
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    Caoimhgh1n wrote: »
    I'm just wondering, would it be any use complaining about the italics on basically every road sign? I sometimes can't read the writing and I find it really annoying, as Irish is the first language of the state.

    Minisiter Varadker gave an undertaking earlier this year that when new road signs were to be erected they would be equal, that is no italics. Existing road signs would have to see out their shelf life, which means none of the begrudgers can attack him over extra expenditure on the language which is fair enough.


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    #12
    mattP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭mattP


    Deleted User wrote:
    I just find myself wondering why so many towns in Ireland with roundabouts also seem to have a place in them called Gach Treo Eile.

    :D:D:D


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    #13
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    An gal gréine wrote: »
    Minisiter Varadker gave an undertaking earlier this year that when new road signs were to be erected they would be equal, that is no italics. Existing road signs would have to see out their shelf life, which means none of the begrudgers can attack him over extra expenditure on the language which is fair enough.

    Tá an ceart agat

    An Conradh had a campaign along the lines of what you are suggesting OP, and it was sucessful (although I have yet to see a new style sign)

    https://cnag.ie/en/campaigns/current-campaigns/dual-language-road-signs.html


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    #14
    An Riabhach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭An Riabhach


    The only road signs I have ever seen so far are the ones with the italics in Irish above the block capitals in English,so I'm well used to them.I'm just always delighted to see Irish being included,as long as the Irish is correct,of course.However,I'm not too happy seeing An tAonach being used as opposed to Aonach Urmhumhan though.

    I've been to the North a couple of times and from what I've seen there are plenty of Irish people,and the Irish language is very much alive up there.But with the exception of the road signs.White lower case lettering on a dark green background and absolutely no Gaeilge,they look bleak and depressing to me.

    I can't lie,I must admit that I always find it really amusing seeing signs where the "London" is painted out of (London)derry :-) :-)


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    #15
    gananam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 71 ✭✭gananam


    An Riabhach wrote: »
    The only road signs I have ever seen so far are the ones with the italics in Irish above the block capitals in English,so I'm well used to them.I'm just always delighted to see Irish being included,as long as the Irish is correct,of course.However,I'm not too happy seeing An tAonach being used as opposed to Aonach Urmhumhan though.

    On the issue of placenames such as the one you mention, I heard a fairly compelling argument for the shorter placenames not so long ago, it seems that several of the longer versions (the ones that tend not to make it onto roadsigns) only came into being at the time of the revival and the shorter versions that are in official use tend to be the ones that can actually be traced in the historical record.

    I don't know about Aonach Urmhumhan specifically, but it is probably the case that while it might look more 'authentic' than An tAonach, An tAonach is probably what people actually called the place and that is probably the name most reliably found in the historical record.

    There is a tenancy to assume that the state just arbitrarily changes Irish placenames, if you were to actually look into it though, they probably have a good reason for using the version they use.


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    #16
    gananam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 71 ✭✭gananam


    As for the issue of putting the Irish version of the placename in italics, personally I think its terrible.

    There is no good reason to do it, there are plenty of good reasons not to do it.

    Both for symbolic reasons and for practical reasons, having the Irish in Italics is not justifiable. Having the Irish in italics makes the Irish harder to read. Just in terms of sign design, it makes no sense to make something harder to read on a sign. Its undeniable that when you are driving, you have to be quite a bit closer to the sign to read the Irish text than you do to read the text in English.

    Having the Irish in italics also signifies that it is less important that the English version of the placename which is not in italics and is in all capital letters. This should not be the case.

    While Minister Varadker did agree that it should be changed, his successor has canceled planes for the trial period that Varadker had ordered. The reason given for this was 'safety concerns', no further information has ever been given on what these concerned are, and in response to repeated requests, it has essentially been admitted that these concerns are not based on anything in particular. It should also be noted that research in the area have found that bilingual signage does not compromise safety.


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    #17
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    An File wrote: »
    I agree, but I still feel there's no reason at all why you shouldn't be able to read the italic font.
    The letters are smaller, and more difficult to read from a distance.
    Try motorway driving while reading only the Irish text and you will soon see the difference!


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    #18
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    deirdremf wrote: »
    The letters are smaller, and more difficult to read from a distance.
    Try motorway driving while reading only the Irish text and you will soon see the difference!

    The capital letters are the same size (going by the document I read last Wednesday week) but of course, yes, the rest of the letters are smaller than the English capslock.

    I've been blessed with great eye-sight, and because I haven't a problem with reading the Irish text I might not be the right guy to be arguing in favour of it. I just haven't experienced the issue from your or the OP's perspective. So I'll bow out of this debate for now. :o


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    #19
    Moac
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Moac


    On the M50 sign for M3 exit there is an inverted solid black triangle and on M2 exit for Blanchardstown there is a solid black square. What do these new solid black on yellow signs mean?


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    #20
    An Sionnach Glic
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭An Sionnach Glic


    An Riabhach wrote: »
    The only road signs I have ever seen so far are the ones with the italics in Irish above the block capitals in English,so I'm well used to them.I'm just always delighted to see Irish being included,as long as the Irish is correct,of course.However,I'm not too happy seeing An tAonach being used as opposed to Aonach Urmhumhan though.
    gananam wrote: »
    On the issue of placenames such as the one you mention, I heard a fairly compelling argument for the shorter placenames not so long ago, it seems that several of the longer versions (the ones that tend not to make it onto roadsigns) only came into being at the time of the revival and the shorter versions that are in official use tend to be the ones that can actually be traced in the historical record.

    I don't know about Aonach Urmhumhan specifically, but it is probably the case that while it might look more 'authentic' than An tAonach, An tAonach is probably what people actually called the place and that is probably the name most reliably found in the historical record.

    There is a tenancy to assume that the state just arbitrarily changes Irish placenames, if you were to actually look into it though, they probably have a good reason for using the version they use.

    You're absolutely right, gananam. Quite a few of the Irish versions adopted in the early revival period were found to be inaccurate when more detailed academic study was conducted.

    The Placenames' Commission website has a few very good examples of this, for instance:

    http://www.logainm.ie/Iomhanna/po17008_6.JPG (Page 1 of a scanned letter in English on the authoritive Irish version of 'Rush' in County Dublin)
    http://www.logainm.ie/Iomhanna/po17008_7.JPG (Page 2 of a scanned letter in English on the authoritive Irish version of 'Rush' in County Dublin)

    http://www.logainm.ie/Eolas/Data/Brainse/logainmneacha-na-heireann-ca-bhfuil-ar-dtriall.pdf (Article as Gaeilge about the standardising of the Irish versions of placenames. Aonach Urmhumhan is referenced on page 3.)

    As regards the status of Irish on road signs, Leo Varadkar had given the green light to giving Irish proper equal size and status on new road signs when he was Transport Minister, with the Irish in white and the English in yellow (see the proposed design here), but the Minister who followed him, Paschal Donohue, ditched it and followed the preference of the civil servants in 2014, which was to change nothing.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/road-signs-irish-english-1735179-Oct2014/

    http://tuairisc.ie/cinneadh-varadkar-faoi-chomharthai-curtha-ar-ceal/


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    #21
    David Webb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭David Webb


    Personally, I don't approve of the script or spelling changes of the mid-20th century, and so a bigger issue for me is why the road signs aren't in seanchló(dh). I like the Cúíl Aodha road sign (in seanchlódh, type Cúil Aodha road sign into Google Images) ! That is how Ireland should always have been.


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