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E mac · 18-12-2020, 16:27

How much of an asset were Italy to Germany? Again I think Hitler put too much faith in an Italian army which was low on modern mechanisation and still relied on the humble horse. Fair enough Italy took control in Greece /Mediterranean but it was fleeting. Japan was too far away to be of any help to Germany in Europe if say geographically Japan was an island in Europe then god help us...

Larbre34 · 18-12-2020, 16:28

He could've maybe fought it to a standstill and divvied up a treaty for expanded borders with the Soviets, but he would've had to listen to his strategists more than he actually did.

He should've halted at the soviet border, albeit threateningly, then focussed on the invasion of Britain. As we know, they were a hairs breath away from prevailing in the Battle of Britain and could certainly have undertaken a successful amphibious assault.

In the end though, perhaps after a new conflict following an armistice, the sheer force of numbers and resources of their enemies would've beaten the Third Reich. What won World War 2 was American factories and steel and oil and the ability to keep endlessly deploying new tanks and planes and ships into the fight.

Its likely a long term Third Reich occupation of central Europe AND an occupation of Great Britain would've been completely unmanageable anyway, too much land and population to supervise, it would never have been without resistance and external probing by America.

Also, had it been necessary, the Atom bomb would've been dropped on German cities until they got around to Berlin and decapitated the Reich. Even something as unbalancing as a Nazi-Soviet alliance or continued non-aggression pact wouldn't have withstood an atomic assault.

And thats the key point, the tactics and weapons that defeated the Axis would've done so eventually, maybe in a different order, on a different timetable, with different long term consequences - but, so long as nobody could lay a glove on the continental USA, the Axis could not have won I believe.

victor8600 · 18-12-2020, 16:43

As many have pointed out, even in this thread, Hitler might have had a chance to win WW2 if he was not Hitler.

For example, the scenario Stalin had feared was a united imperialist front against the Soviet Union. Could have that happened? Sure, imagine Hitler declaring peace with Britain and France (subject to France paying "reparations") after France's collapse in 1940 and announcing a crusade against Bolshevism. No submarine warfare against British shipping, and active appeasement of those sections of the US society who were most against USSR. Then Hitler could have coordinated with Japanese to crush the Soviet Union; without the Lend Lease and facing a war from West and East, the USSR would probably fall. After digesting the USSR, the Reich then could have "liberated" India and the arab world from the clutches of British and French imperialists.

beauf · 18-12-2020, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larbre34

...As we know, they were a hairs breath away from prevailing in the Battle of Britain and could certainly have undertaken a successful amphibious assault. ...

I don't think that entirely true. Even if they had destroyed the RAF bases in the south they could have simply moved to the midlands, and as many airbases were Grass they could have been rebuilt easily. UK kept a lot of strength in reserve in the midlands and in the north. They ended the battle stronger than when they started.

Quote:

...Fighter Command ended the battle stronger than when it began, with about 40% more operational pilots, and more aircraft. The Luftwaffe meanwhile emerged battered and depleted, having lost 30% of its operational strength....

Even if Germany had defeated the RAF they didn't have the resources to cross the channel, by sea or by air. That said the battle had big impact other than the numbers. It shifted American opinion. Raised the stiffening the moral and resolve to fight one, and others to join their fight.

beauf · 18-12-2020, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by victor8600

As many have pointed out, even in this thread, Hitler might have had a chance to win WW2 if he was not Hitler. ...

Very true. But being Hitler is what got him so far. But it also sealed his defeat.

beauf · 18-12-2020, 16:59

Then theres the battle of the atlantic.

https://uboat.net/fates/losses/

Scoundrel · 18-12-2020, 17:05

I firmly believe Germany could have won in the east had it utilised the millions or indeed tens of millions of willing collaborators it had in Poland Latvia Estonia Lithuania Belarus Ukraine etc etc promised them freedom under a German sphere of influence once war was over etc rather than treating them as slaves and subhumans. Thankfully of course they did not do this and the glorious red army was able to smash the beast once and for all.

Samsonsmasher · 18-12-2020, 18:24

In our timeline the Battle of Smolensk which led to the encirclement of another vast Russian army was a loss for Stalin but in fact was a vital delay to the advance on Moscow. In my hypothetical timeline woth a peace agreed with Halifax there would be no more need to fight in the West and in the Mediterranean and North Africa and more combat units would have been available and more time prepare.
The Red Army of 1941 was a mess led by incompetent Communist yes men and poorly led conscripts whereas after the defeat of the Germans before Moscow officers who had been imprisoned were released while the meritocrscy command structure was restored. The majority of the Soviets who fought hard all the way to Berlin did for the Motherland and to avenge the invasion not for Stalin or Communism.
In our timeline Stalin fell into a funk and contemplated suicide while his stooges plotted his overthrow.
Had the Germans had more men and not been delayed by the British that could have been enough to capture Moscow and that would been it for Stalin and the Soviets. The Germans would still have been weak and could have been thrown back by a counterattack even if they captured Moscow but that required leadership and steel nerves which would be gone with the Soviet system decapitated.
Had this happened a long war would have continued on the Urals frontier while partisans would have fought on for many years threatening Germany supply lines but without a two front war with moral high and no resistance from the Western allies the Germans could have carved out their living space.
Hitler would have declined from the onset of Parkinson's and died by the 1950s perhaps. His immense mausoleam in the Berlin redesigned by Albert Speer would be a Nazi Mecca.
A power struggle would have ensued perhaps with the rise of Reinhard Heydrich after the death of Himmler in a mysterious plane crash followed by the liquidation of his Nazi Party SS and Wehrmacht rivals.
With the Blonde Beast taking the name Hitler aping Augustus who renamed himself Caesar?
The American right both Democrat and Republican would have pursued detente with this evil empire with Western Europe as their satelite possibly adopting a version of National Socialism themselves including the British French and other Europeans.
Germany's superiority in rocketry and space science would probably have given them the lead in the space race. Perhaps an Nazi astronaut riding a Saturn 5 designed by Werner Von Braun would have reached the moon by the 1960s?
Ireland would be part of a pan European alliance with a right wing ultra Catholic hardline Irish Nationalist regime in place supported by a German garrison with SS officers holidaying playing golf and shooting deer on Irish estates with German nuclear missiles and U boats based on our Western shores?

Del.Monte · 18-12-2020, 19:03

@ Samsonmasher

If Trump had clung onto power something along the lines of your post could theoretically have occurred but with the Russians occupying Western Europe save for France and the UK who would have been too dangerous to take on. Certainly one could see a scenario where the UK would stay out of a war with Russia if NATO had been let crumble by Putin's puppet in Washington. Interesting stuff for a movie anyway.

Das Reich · 18-12-2020, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by E mac

Didn't Hitler initially think Britain as potential allies? He was sure that they wouldn't intervene when Germany invaded Poland. He saw Britains specifically English people as part of the Aryan Germanic master race...

No. England and France were doing problems since the Saarland went back to Germany.

Harika · 18-12-2020, 19:19

The war was lost when the door was kicked in and the whole rotten soviet union didn't came down. Even if Germany would have been quicker at Moscow, this would have been no quick win, and winter comes guaranteed. Supply lines are over stretched. Moscow's sacking might even shorten the war in favour of Russia.
Even if Moscow would have been captured, short lived victory as the government was ready to relocate.
To win, get UK, US or Russia on your side.

Samsonsmasher · 18-12-2020, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del.Monte

@ Samsonmasher

If Trump had clung onto power something along the lines of your post could theoretically have occurred but with the Russians occupying Western Europe save for France and the UK who would have been too dangerous to take on. Certainly one could see a scenario where the UK would stay out of a war with Russia if NATO had been let crumble by Putin's puppet in Washington. Interesting stuff for a movie anyway.

That's for another thread lol. I am solely interested in possible outcomes from that famous showdown between Halifax and Churchill.
Being a WW2 nerd in the extreme I think that is the moment when History changed.

V8 Interceptor · 18-12-2020, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samsonsmasher

A militaristic dictator who was not antisemitic who might have seized power in an alternative timeline would of course have used Jewish scientists who were enthusiatically German nationalists prior to Hitler's rise to power.

If they were why did the Nazis hate them?

dubrov · 18-12-2020, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by V8 Interceptor

If they were why did the Nazis hate them?

Tensions were bubbling long before Hitler. I can't see German Jews being msssive nationalists given the hate from the rest of the local population

saabsaab · 18-12-2020, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubrov

Tensions were bubbling long before Hitler. I can't see German Jews being msssive nationalists given the hate from the rest of the local population

Some were. Didn't one win get awarded an Iron Cross?

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18-12-2020, 16:27	#31
E mac Registered User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 374 Adverts \| Friends	How much of an asset were Italy to Germany? Again I think Hitler put too much faith in an Italian army which was low on modern mechanisation and still relied on the humble horse. Fair enough Italy took control in Greece /Mediterranean but it was fleeting. Japan was too far away to be of any help to Germany in Europe if say geographically Japan was an island in Europe then god help us...

18-12-2020, 16:28	#32
Larbre34 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 14,546 Adverts \| Friends	He could've maybe fought it to a standstill and divvied up a treaty for expanded borders with the Soviets, but he would've had to listen to his strategists more than he actually did. He should've halted at the soviet border, albeit threateningly, then focussed on the invasion of Britain. As we know, they were a hairs breath away from prevailing in the Battle of Britain and could certainly have undertaken a successful amphibious assault. In the end though, perhaps after a new conflict following an armistice, the sheer force of numbers and resources of their enemies would've beaten the Third Reich. What won World War 2 was American factories and steel and oil and the ability to keep endlessly deploying new tanks and planes and ships into the fight. Its likely a long term Third Reich occupation of central Europe AND an occupation of Great Britain would've been completely unmanageable anyway, too much land and population to supervise, it would never have been without resistance and external probing by America. Also, had it been necessary, the Atom bomb would've been dropped on German cities until they got around to Berlin and decapitated the Reich. Even something as unbalancing as a Nazi-Soviet alliance or continued non-aggression pact wouldn't have withstood an atomic assault. And thats the key point, the tactics and weapons that defeated the Axis would've done so eventually, maybe in a different order, on a different timetable, with different long term consequences - but, so long as nobody could lay a glove on the continental USA, the Axis could not have won I believe.

18-12-2020, 16:43	#33
victor8600 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912 Adverts \| Friends	As many have pointed out, even in this thread, Hitler might have had a chance to win WW2 if he was not Hitler. For example, the scenario Stalin had feared was a united imperialist front against the Soviet Union. Could have that happened? Sure, imagine Hitler declaring peace with Britain and France (subject to France paying "reparations") after France's collapse in 1940 and announcing a crusade against Bolshevism. No submarine warfare against British shipping, and active appeasement of those sections of the US society who were most against USSR. Then Hitler could have coordinated with Japanese to crush the Soviet Union; without the Lend Lease and facing a war from West and East, the USSR would probably fall. After digesting the USSR, the Reich then could have "liberated" India and the arab world from the clutches of British and French imperialists.

18-12-2020, 16:59	#36
beauf Registered User Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 22,254 Adverts \| Friends	Then theres the battle of the atlantic. https://uboat.net/fates/losses/

18-12-2020, 17:05	#37
Scoundrel Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 894 Adverts \| Friends	I firmly believe Germany could have won in the east had it utilised the millions or indeed tens of millions of willing collaborators it had in Poland Latvia Estonia Lithuania Belarus Ukraine etc etc promised them freedom under a German sphere of influence once war was over etc rather than treating them as slaves and subhumans. Thankfully of course they did not do this and the glorious red army was able to smash the beast once and for all.

18-12-2020, 18:24	#38
Samsonsmasher Banned Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 505 Adverts \| Friends	In our timeline the Battle of Smolensk which led to the encirclement of another vast Russian army was a loss for Stalin but in fact was a vital delay to the advance on Moscow. In my hypothetical timeline woth a peace agreed with Halifax there would be no more need to fight in the West and in the Mediterranean and North Africa and more combat units would have been available and more time prepare. The Red Army of 1941 was a mess led by incompetent Communist yes men and poorly led conscripts whereas after the defeat of the Germans before Moscow officers who had been imprisoned were released while the meritocrscy command structure was restored. The majority of the Soviets who fought hard all the way to Berlin did for the Motherland and to avenge the invasion not for Stalin or Communism. In our timeline Stalin fell into a funk and contemplated suicide while his stooges plotted his overthrow. Had the Germans had more men and not been delayed by the British that could have been enough to capture Moscow and that would been it for Stalin and the Soviets. The Germans would still have been weak and could have been thrown back by a counterattack even if they captured Moscow but that required leadership and steel nerves which would be gone with the Soviet system decapitated. Had this happened a long war would have continued on the Urals frontier while partisans would have fought on for many years threatening Germany supply lines but without a two front war with moral high and no resistance from the Western allies the Germans could have carved out their living space. Hitler would have declined from the onset of Parkinson's and died by the 1950s perhaps. His immense mausoleam in the Berlin redesigned by Albert Speer would be a Nazi Mecca. A power struggle would have ensued perhaps with the rise of Reinhard Heydrich after the death of Himmler in a mysterious plane crash followed by the liquidation of his Nazi Party SS and Wehrmacht rivals. With the Blonde Beast taking the name Hitler aping Augustus who renamed himself Caesar? The American right both Democrat and Republican would have pursued detente with this evil empire with Western Europe as their satelite possibly adopting a version of National Socialism themselves including the British French and other Europeans. Germany's superiority in rocketry and space science would probably have given them the lead in the space race. Perhaps an Nazi astronaut riding a Saturn 5 designed by Werner Von Braun would have reached the moon by the 1960s? Ireland would be part of a pan European alliance with a right wing ultra Catholic hardline Irish Nationalist regime in place supported by a German garrison with SS officers holidaying playing golf and shooting deer on Irish estates with German nuclear missiles and U boats based on our Western shores?

18-12-2020, 19:03	#39
Del.Monte Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 11,786 Adverts \| Friends	@ Samsonmasher If Trump had clung onto power something along the lines of your post could theoretically have occurred but with the Russians occupying Western Europe save for France and the UK who would have been too dangerous to take on. Certainly one could see a scenario where the UK would stay out of a war with Russia if NATO had been let crumble by Putin's puppet in Washington. Interesting stuff for a movie anyway.

18-12-2020, 19:19	#41
Harika Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,868 Adverts \| Friends	The war was lost when the door was kicked in and the whole rotten soviet union didn't came down. Even if Germany would have been quicker at Moscow, this would have been no quick win, and winter comes guaranteed. Supply lines are over stretched. Moscow's sacking might even shorten the war in favour of Russia. Even if Moscow would have been captured, short lived victory as the government was ready to relocate. To win, get UK, US or Russia on your side.