How bad is Eastern Europe etc

ohnonotgmail · 17-09-2020 10:37am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Just so we are in the same page here, are you suggesting that Europe was not split down the approximate middle during the cold war and referred to as 'east' and 'West'? That I have made this up?

This should hopefully clarify the usage of these terms for you based on the cold war that started long before my birth.

https://www.quia.com/files/quia/users/rebekahedelman/Europe

a crude shorthand that only applied for a period of 40 years and has not applied for 30 years. why continue to use it?

17-09-2020 10:41am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

a crude shorthand that only applied for a period of 40 years and has not applied for 30 years. why continue to use it?

Ah stop now. It's not crude. It was the political landscape for 40 years. Longer than 30.

Of course I could also point out that Poland is actually on the eastern side with only the Russian section more eastern. Ireland being very western and the likes of germany to czech in the center. If yo want to decide up that way.

There's plenty of ways, yours need not be the only one dictator joe

I shall use it because I choose to use it or because it's how the op used it

jmayo · 17-09-2020 10:43am

TM2015 wrote: »

You will also find that people from the Baltic States consider Poland ‘Russian’ and do look quite down on Poland and Polish people. Your average Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian culturally has a lot less common with Russia than Poland. You fill find Estonia and Northern Latvia to be quite Nordic, Latvia in general rather German and Lithuania, well not sure about them, think a bit of everything really but definitely not Nordic. And let’s be honest here, while the Baltic states were annexed by the Soviets, Poland openly embraced socialism.

The Latvians and Estonians that consider themselves Russian are Russian. Immigrated during the soviet occupation. You can’t change your ethnicity really.

Eastern Europe is incredibly diverse. You have the Baltic States which in reality are Northern European counties. You have places like Slovenia and Hungary, then Belarus and Ukraine, how about Albania and Kosovo? You’d be a bit dumb if you lumped them all in together and made assumptions that it’s pretty much the same place. It’s be like having been to Holland and assuming that life in Britain would be the same.

Also, the Iron Curtain fell 30 years ago. I think it’s time we got over thhat and stopped referring to a quarter of our the continent as ex Soviet states. Might as well keep calling Ireland ex British Colony. They are counties with their own identities!

Yes, but the Soviet occupation or dominance had huge consequences which still has influences to this day.
One being that in places like the Baltic states a large Russian population were left behind that the natives did not like or want.

Also the soviets were there in the living memory of quite a lot of the people. It is only people in their thirties or lower that did not have any direct Soviet influence in their lives.

As for the Baltic states someone one said the way to look at them is to see how they rolled out their new currencies back in early 90s.
Estonia being much more Protestant/Lutheran Nordic like rolled it out over a weekend.
Lativa did it over a week and well Lithuania took much longer to get it right.
The more North in the three, the more the Lutheran Swedish influence whereas the further South you get the more Polish Catholic.

That mindset of looking at economic performance from a religious point was also used in the meltdown of European economics and banks during the banking collapse from 2008 onwards, where Catholic Southern Europe (and us) faired less well than northern Protestant Europe.

The Greeks are of course a different matter.

breezy1985 wrote: »

Grammer is one thing but you dont seem to be able to speak English yet you can call this Ukranian woman thick

Ehh there is a difference between speaking in English and writing in English.
One doesn't always go with the other.

Also you really shouldn't call out other people on their grammar when your own isn't great either.

ohnonotgmail · 17-09-2020 10:44am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ah stop now. It's not crude. It was the political landscape for 40 years. Longer than 30.

Of course I could also point out that Poland is actually on the eastern side with only the Russian section more eastern. Ireland being very western and the likes of germany to czech in the center. If yo want to decide up that way.

There's plenty of ways, yours need not be the only one dictator joe

I shall use it because I choose to use it or because it's how the op used it

use what you like but dont be surprised when polish people get pissed at you for describing them as eastern europeans.

breezy1985 · 17-09-2020 10:52am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ah stop now. It's not crude. It was the political landscape for 40 years. Longer than 30.

Of course I could also point out that Poland is actually on the eastern side with only the Russian section more eastern. Ireland being very western and the likes of germany to czech in the center. If yo want to decide up that way.

There's plenty of ways, yours need not be the only one dictator joe

I shall use it because I choose to use it or because it's how the op used it

Eastern Europe is still a handy term for a group of nations that mostly all became independent or changed from communism around 1990 and still share similar issues and situations surrounding that.

But culturally as a term it is completely useless as countries like Poland and Hungary are way closer to Germany than Russia and from my limited experience I even found Estonia and Lithuania to have more of a German feel to them

breezy1985 · 17-09-2020 10:54am

jmayo wrote: »

Yes, but the Soviet occupation or dominance had huge consequences which still has influences to this day.
One being that in places like the Baltic states a large Russian population were left behind that the natives did not like or want.

Also the soviets were there in the living memory of quite a lot of the people. It is only people in their thirties or lower that did not have any direct Soviet influence in their lives.

As for the Baltic states someone one said the way to look at them is to see how they rolled out their new currencies back in early 90s.
Estonia being much more Protestant/Lutheran Nordic like rolled it out over a weekend.
Lativa did it over a week and well Lithuania took much longer to get it right.
The more North in the three, the more the Lutheran Swedish influence whereas the further South you get the more Polish Catholic.

That mindset of looking at economic performance from a religious point was also used in the meltdown of European economics and banks during the banking collapse from 2008 onwards, where Catholic Southern Europe (and us) faired less well than northern Protestant Europe.

The Greeks are of course a different matter.

Ehh there is a difference between speaking in English and writing in English.
One doesn't always go with the other.

Also you really shouldn't call out other people on their grammar when your own isn't great either.

Ok sorry I called out his grammar when what I was really getting at was his entire post which was just disgusting waffle

ShamNNspace · 17-09-2020 11:23am

breezy1985 wrote: »

Eastern Europe is still a handy term for a group of nations that mostly all became independent or changed from communism around 1990 and still share similar issues and situations surrounding that.

But culturally as a term it is completely useless as countries like Poland and Hungary are way closer to Germany than Russia and from my limited experience I even found Estonia and Lithuania to have more of a German feel to them

Areas around klaipeda were in east prussia, it was called memel those times, you can still see the German architecture if you look hard enough

breezy1985 · 17-09-2020 11:31am

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Areas around klaipeda were in east prussia, it was called memel those times, you can still see the German architecture if you look hard enough

I'm due to go there at some stage after covid as I have friends from klaipeda

Lawlesz · 17-09-2020 11:48am

andala wrote: »

They may not consider themselves EE but we, Poles, call them Russians anyway :P (A lot of Latvians consider themselves Russian due to their history of the USSR moving Russians into the Latvian territory)

Calling Poland an Eastern European country will not be met with great enthusiasm as it's comparable to calling Ireland Western Britain. We've suffered indescribable atrocities from the Soviets and a deep dislike and distrust are still there, decades later.

Post Soviet countries have an astonishing variety of holiday opportunities - high mountains, low mountains, the cold-ish Baltic sea, the warm Black sea, lakelands and more than enough historic sites across all the countries. You don't have to the touristy Krakow/Prague/ Auschwitz thing, go somewhere less popular and you'll have a much better time.

Having lived in Latvia, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that - if you ever called a Latvian person Russian, I am pretty sure you would get punched in the face. There is often a deep rooted hatred between both, especially since the Latvian government changed the laws so Russian is no longer mandatory in state schools. My workplace had Russian-Latvians and Latvian-Latvians and they would have a 2 way conversation in their own language. The Russian asking a question in Russian, and the Latvian answering in Latvian.

There is a large chunk of the population with Russian ancestry but they consider themselves firmly Russian. The Latvian population also consider those Russian descendants as outsiders. I always thought it was a similar situation to the North of Ireland where the Unionists are more British than the British themselves, and are largely ignored by the motherland who don't really want anything to do with them anyway.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 11:49am

Lawlesz wrote: »

Having lived in Latvia, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that - if you ever called a Latvian person Russian, I am pretty sure you would get punched in the face. .

You wouldn't get punched in the face. They are not barbarians.

I went to school with a russian from latvian. And a latvian from latvia.

They have russian or latvian friends etc and socialize. Yes you have extremists. But most would simply firmly correct you.

Lawlesz · 17-09-2020 11:59am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You wouldn't get punched in the face. They are not barbarians.

I went to school with a russian from latvian. And a latvian from latvia.

They have russian or latvian friends etc and socialize. Yes you have extremists. But most would simply firmly correct you.

OK, Dr Serious, yes the punch in the face comment was an exaggeration, I will put a note on the bottom next time.

And I don't really believe your experience to be the norm, of course some will get on and be friendly but for the vast majority there is a bitter divide, similar to what you see in the North. They get along and do business when needed but in general the communities don't mix. I would consider your friends to be in a definite minority

CrankyHaus · 17-09-2020 12:07pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

But as you get older pensions etc ...its a disaster.

Either you make it big or you are begging in your old age. Particularly women.

Yeah, in Russia my taxi driver was a retired Aeroflot pilot. No complaining from him either, that's just the way it is.
Doubt there's many lads collecting their senior captain pension from Aer Lingus, and then going around the corner to put a sign on the roof of their car and queue up at the cab-rank in Dublin Airport.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:09pm

Lawlesz wrote: »

OK, Dr Serious, yes the punch in the face comment was an exaggeration, I will put a note on the bottom next time.

And I don't really believe your experience to be the norm, of course some will get on and be friendly but for the vast majority there is a bitter divide, similar to what you see in the North.

Exactly NORMAL people in the north have friends in the other side ...they might be a bit ....cautious at times. But they do. Or middleclass people do.

It is the same situation all right.

galwayguy85 · 17-09-2020 12:09pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Grammer is one thing but you dont seem to be able to speak English yet you can call this Ukranian woman thick

Perhaps that’s the vitriol of a loser stuck in lockdown? I live these times in a progressive West European country and tend to default to German most of the time, despite being born in Ireland. Does that suggest some degree of fluency in two languages? Ja, das glaube ich!

Sorry if the truth has rattled your cage. Viel Spaß auf Boards :-)

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:10pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Yeah, in Russia my taxi driver was a retired Aeroflot pilot. No complaining from him either, that's just the way it is.
Doubt there's many lads collecting their senior captain pension from Aer Lingus, and then going around the corner to put a sign on the roof of their car and queue up at the cab-rank in Dublin Airport.

Gets REALLY tough when they can't work anymore.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:15pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

use what you like but dont be surprised when polish people get pissed at you for describing them as eastern europeans.

I have known loads of polish people who haven't minded.

Its more than NO ONE wants to be seen as eastern European ....call them slavs etc that is fine. west slavs to be precise ..Pols don't mind slav

But eastern european is like ....well it has a stigma of poverty.

AndyBoBandy · 17-09-2020 12:18pm

Lawlesz wrote: »

There is a large chunk of the population with Russian ancestry but they consider themselves firmly Russian.

And the fear in the Baltic States is that uncle Vlad will come to 'free' them like he freed the 'Russians' in Ukraine (Chrimea) a few years back.

It might not be as easy to do it in the Baltic States as they are in the E.U. (and NATO), but there is still a fear there that Uncle Vlad could come knocking someday to 'save' his people..

event-destination-helsinki-occupation-no-just-visiting

event-destination-helsinki-occupation-no-just-visiting

Sardonicat · 17-09-2020 12:20pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Exactly NORMAL people in the north have friends in the other side ...they might be a bit ....cautious at times. But they do. Or middleclass people do.

It is the same situation all right.

So working class people aren't normal?

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:21pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

So working class people aren't normal?

TOTAL FREAKS! :eek:

kidding not falling for your trap

Sardonicat · 17-09-2020 12:24pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

TOTAL FREAKS! :eek:

kidding not falling for your trap

What trap? You said NORMAL people than clarified to middle class. So in your opinion working class people aren't 'normal'? Is that what you mean? If not, then what did you mean?

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:26pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

What trap? You said NORMAL people than clarified to middle class. So in your opinion working class people aren't 'normal'? Is that what you mean? If not, then what did you mean?

Extremists tend to come from working class backgrounds.

Not always but usually those who are coming for upperclass backgrounds are simply in it for personal gain.

I'll spell it out for you. A lot of extremists recruit from places like prisons ..partic in eastern europe.

Prisons are mostly populated by the working class.

Also extremists recruit from gangs ..these also tend to be from working class areas.

Lack of socio-economic opportunities are also a factor.

AND BY THE WAY I DIDNT ACTUALLY SAY WORKING CLASS PEOPLE WERE NOT NORMAL. I SAID NORMAL PEOPLE HAVE FRIENDS ACROSS THE COMMUNITY.

IT IS NOT NORMAL FOR PEOPLE TO BE SECTARIAN. ITS PSYCHOTIC. ITS WEIRD ITS SAD. BUT NOT NORMAL.

Drug addiction is also a factor.

Lack of education. Lack of respect from society in general.

They feel like victims.

They grow up in weird circumstances. that shouldn't be normal.

Unemployment provides a fertile ground etc.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:39pm

From what i have seen i think i could live in prague looks lovely and poland but only during the summer. :P

Kaybaykwah · 17-09-2020 12:45pm

andala wrote: »

When I came here 13 years ago I found Ireland to be very uncivilised - your access to goods and services was shockingly poor and prices were shocking for a Pole like me. It's changing now, more things can be done online but still I miss big shops with a huge variety of things like furniture. I found a lot of houses looked almost identical on the inside - tiles, furniture and styles - that is something we don't get, we love doing up our houses, even if it means retiling the whole thing every 5 years so no wonder diy markets are aplenty back home.

Most of my friends who stayed back home are doing fine, if you get a job with decent salary you've no reason to emigrate.

I find in continental Europe we tend to be more by the book than here - probably due to the fact our law does not let us get away with many things, especially when it comes to debts - electricity and water get cut off if you don't pay, homes get repossessed and debt collectors will take your sofa and social payments, there's no escaping it

We drive cars older than here, a lot of petrol cars converted to LPG because it's cheaper and we do seem grim and serious, but that's just the way we look, we're fun really

Grim looking fun people. I ger it. You guys are all Hell's Angels. Lol

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:46pm

andala
Originally Posted by andala View Post
When I came here 13 years ago I found Ireland to be very uncivilised -

Its still pretty uncivilized ..lets be fair.

Sardonicat · 17-09-2020 12:50pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Extremists tend to come from working class backgrounds.

Not always but usually those who are coming for upperclass backgrounds are simply in it for personal gain.

I'll spell it out for you. A lot of extremists recruit from places like prisons ..partic in eastern europe.

Prisons are mostly populated by the working class.

Also extremists recruit from gangs ..these also tend to be from working class areas.

Lack of socio-economic opportunities are also a factor.

Drug addiction is also a factor.

Lack of education. Lack of respect from society in general.

They feel like victims.

They grow up in weird circumstances. that shouldn't be normal.

Unemployment provides a fertile ground etc.

Seriously, you think all people below middle class fit the description and circumstances you describe?

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 12:54pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

Seriously, you think all people below middle class fit the description and circumstances you describe?

Do you agree more of them would than middle class people? You are not being logical.

AND BY THE WAY I DIDNT ACTUALLY SAY WORKING CLASS PEOPLE WERE NOT NORMAL. I SAID NORMAL PEOPLE HAVE FRIENDS ACROSS THE COMMUNITY.

IT IS NOT NORMAL FOR PEOPLE TO BE SECTARIAN. ITS PSYCHOTIC. ITS WEIRD ITS SAD. BUT NOT NORMAL.

You said i said that.

And again you are saying i am saying that ALL working class people fit the criteria.

To suggest poverty and economic deprivation affects middle class areas more than working or poorer class areas would be a new one.

Necro · 17-09-2020 1:06pm

Mod:

Sardonicat and ILoveYourVibes, take it down a notch please. You can debate civilly rather than resorting to histrionics. Thanks.

seenitall · 17-09-2020 1:15pm

jmayo wrote: »

All of Europe past the Elbe, West and South of Austria was under Soviet control or as good as in the case of Yugoslavia.

Well, no. Not as good as or any way close to it, really. The communism was of course, a big pile of ****e, as communism usually is, but in Yugoslavia, it was a homegrown variety, as it were. The Soviets had no input, as Tito aligned Yugoslavia with the Non-aligned

and that was the extent of its political aliances or foreign influences heeded. No Warsaw Pact, no Soviet oversight. The communism in Yugoslavia was of a ‘softer’ kind, as it were. With no Market economy, the consumer goods selection was still non-existant and it was a very drab life by any western standards; however, you could get your passport, hop into your sorry little sardine tin of a car, and pop over to Trieste or Graz for a bit of consumer decadence (i.e. shopping) if you were thus inclined. Also, if you, being a democrat at heart, hated the ideological oppression at home, or simply wanted to make a good bit of money relatively quickly in order to build a house, you went and joined all the Turks on the building sites of Germany.

A Hungarian or a Pole could legally do none of the above things (not without a large amount of difficulty, at least - having a passport was not for everyone). I think it makes a big difference to the mentality of peoples, through the generations. This is why you will find the Visegrad group so strident within the EU. There is probably a lot in being completely imprisoned within a Soviet style communism for so long and so recently, that leaves its mark on the populations - instinctively veering to the right wing and the nationalist end of the spectrum. Compare with Slovenia who was always the industrial and the innovation engine of Yugoslavia, in spite of all the ideological brainwashing - a close and admiring neighbour of the West, and practically prosperous within the system, or Croatia, who was also comfortable enough within the given parametres, for a long time - there was a pressure valve there to use, the feeling of a sort of a halfway house, not entirely unhappy, existance between the East and the West. (Of course, the wars of the 90’s happened because of the drive for independence etc, but I’m not talking about that atm.) So you have these two countries who are also in the EU, but you don’t hear from them nearly as much as you do from Visegrad/V4. They’re comfortable. They really like the EU. They don’t like rocking the boat. There is no stridency or dynamism there like there is in Hungary or Poland, the political landscape is less polarised (although a good bit more polarised than the Irish one, which isn’t a tall order, really!). I can’t help feeling that it’s because, in the final analysis, they didn’t use to have it just quite as bad (which is not to say it wasn’t crap, but it was just that bit more free), so they didn’t develop the same ‘fcuk off’ mentalities as others.

TM2015 · 17-09-2020 1:16pm

Lawlesz wrote: »

There is often a deep rooted hatred between both, especially since the Latvian government changed the laws so Russian is no longer mandatory in state schools..

Russian has never been mandatory, well not since 1989, but if you were a Russian kid, you could attend a school where many of the subjects were taught in Russian, including core subjects like Math. This obviously would lead to poor Latvian language skills in the longer term and would impact on their job prospects. It also does not help with the cultural divide that still exists. That has changed now and these Russian schools are now transitioning to have all subjects taught in Latvian.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-09-2020 1:20pm

seenitall wrote: »

I can’t help feeling that it’s because, in the final analysis, they didn’t use to have it just quite as bad (which is not to say it wasn’t crap, but it was just that bit more free), so they didn’t develop the same ‘fcuk off’ mentalities as others.

Do you know how many slavs were killed in the holocaust? Or starved after?

Millions.

3 Million poles. That is just polish slavs.

How bad is Eastern Europe etc

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