[monument]

This is a note for both sides here: Keeo it civil and everybody forget about personalities -- no focusing on others or yourself, just deal with the topic at hand. Thank you all!

-- moderator

[monument]

There was an interisting Strong Towns podcast featuring Jarrett Walker last week --

It's US-centric and does not cover Dublin at all, but it gives insight into his thinking on "coverage vs ridership" in terms of public transport services and being open in debating this.

He comes across as agnostic enough but says cities need to be honest on what they are doing -- if the goal is ridership (ie moving more people and sticking to QBC) or coverage (serving housing estates etc), it doesn't matter but he says those planning the network need to be open about what they are doing.

http://shoutengine.com/StrongTownsPo...-transit-35668

[triple nipple]

Originally Posted by bk

- London Bus style flat fares for all city bus journeys or - Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off system, linked to the buses GPS system, so you are charged precisely for the distance you travel and which could be fully integrated with Luas and DART tag-on/tag-off.

Tag on and off at the bus stop? Like the Luas.

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by triple nipple

Tag on and off at the bus stop? Like the Luas.

I think it's the ideal solution but the hardware costs would be immense, even with a rationalisation in the number of stops. There must be thousands of bus stops on the network.

If we simply had buses with multiple doors with tag on at the front and tag off at the back it would be fine.

An aggressive revenue protection system would need to be in place with support from dedicated transport police. We can but dream.

[thomasj]

Originally Posted by murphaph

I think it's the ideal solution but the hardware costs would be immense, even with a rationalisation in the number of stops. There must be thousands of bus stops on the network.

Isn't it the plan for the BRT that people tag on/off at the limited stops?

[loyatemu]

Originally Posted by thomasj

Isn't it the plan for the BRT that people tag on/off at the limited stops?

yeah but they'll effectively be like Luas stops with one every KM or so

DB has thousands of poles, many way too close together. However I don't see why a tag-on/off pole would need to be much more complicated than a parking machine and they seem fairly easy to deploy in large numbers (and are solar powered). Another comparable example would be the "BigBelly" solar bins many councils are installing.

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by thomasj

Isn't it the plan for the BRT that people tag on/off at the limited stops?

For BRT it makes absolute sense to tag on/off on the (limited) "platforms". But equipping every stop on the network with power/comms/readers would be folly IMO. The money could be much better spent elsewhere.

[Dravokivich]

Originally Posted by bk

Eliminating cash fare completely would greatly simplify it and implementing tag-on/tag-off would also completely eliminate the leap fares and would only be slightly more complicated then the existing right hand side tag-on.

It would look like this:
- Tag-on: Deduct the max fare (adult or child depending on card type) and mark the tag-on location on the card.
- If the user tags-off later, check the tag-on location, compare to the current location, refund difference if necessary.

Actually all pretty straight forward and pretty much the same way Luas works.

Luas doesn't have a multitude of stops. Each Validator will need to be able to calculate the fare of each potential journey, for each Card type.

You look at it as:
Touch On amount - Number of stops/stages/Zone Distance = Fare

But the memory limitations on the device won't be able to do that for each route from a Depot, let alone all of the routes Dublin Bus provide as each Validator / Wayfarer needs them uploaded onto them.

Doing it by getting the difference on Stop Numbers won't suffice either as they aren't all in sequence.

The first hurdle to implementing Tag On/Off for Dublin Bus is hardware.

Originally Posted by triple nipple

Tag on and off at the bus stop? Like the Luas.

The Luas only does 2 directions. Inbound and Outbound. If Dublin Bus were to implement something like that, Each stop will have to have every potential fare, for every potential route that'll use it. With Luas and Irish Rail, they look up tables and provide the applicable rebate that is defined for the Origin / Destination and Card Type.

[monument]

A few people seem confused by this last warning:

Originally Posted by monument

This is a note for both sides here: Keep it civil and everybody forget about personalities -- no focusing on others or yourself, just deal with the topic at hand. Thank you all!

-- moderator

This is not directed at one person and it did not quote any post.

-- moderator

[wordofwarning]

IMO we need someone with the balls to end the scenic routes on the last 10-15 mins on a lot of bus routes. If you look at the 9, 11, 16, 46a, 40 etc. The buses at the final dozen stops tend to be going to housing estates with no one getting on or off. It is lovely that Adele can get on the bus outside of her house to collect her weekly pension in the GPO. But the last 10 mins of bus routes serving a minority to the disadvantage of the majority needs to be reconsidered. Thankfully DB culled a lot of the scenic routes during the recession, but more needs to be culled

Buses need to finish earlier and start later. If you go to any German city, there are night buses that are generally hourly midweek and bihourly during the weekend. Workers can get to work early. The first DB in the morning on my route is packed, as people carely would want to get into work earlier if possible

IMO student discount travel should only be for state sponsored second and third level institutions ie the VECs, ITs, TCD, UCD etc. The student discount should not be able for someone in a visa factory, who is 'studying' English. But is really here for a work permit. In Germany, the student travel discount is amazing ie about 50% off normal fares. We should give students in proper education, a decent discount on travel. It would be possible if we were not giving subsidised travel to people here 'studying' English ie here to work on using a student visa

[end of the road]

Originally Posted by wordofwarning

IMO we need someone with the balls to end the scenic routes on the last 10-15 mins on a lot of bus routes. If you look at the 9, 11, 16, 46a, 40 etc. The buses at the final dozen stops tend to be going to housing estates with no one getting on or off. It is lovely that Adele can get on the bus outside of her house to collect her weekly pension in the GPO. But the last 10 mins of bus routes serving a minority to the disadvantage of the majority needs to be reconsidered. Thankfully DB culled a lot of the scenic routes during the recession, but more needs to be culled

this is nothing to do with not having "balls"
this is to do with the fact that these routes serve a social need. the fact the routes that do go through housing estates weren't removed means that it is felt these routes serve a purpose and there is no good reason to remove them from the estates.

Originally Posted by wordofwarning

Buses need to finish earlier and start later. If you go to any German city, there are night buses that are generally hourly midweek and bihourly during the weekend. Workers can get to work early. The first DB in the morning on my route is packed, as people carely would want to get into work earlier if possible

i presume you mean finish later and start earlier?

Originally Posted by wordofwarning

IMO student discount travel should only be for state sponsored second and third level institutions ie the VECs, ITs, TCD, UCD etc. The student discount should not be able for someone in a visa factory, who is 'studying' English. But is really here for a work permit. In Germany, the student travel discount is amazing ie about 50% off normal fares. We should give students in proper education, a decent discount on travel. It would be possible if we were not giving subsidised travel to people here 'studying' English ie here to work on using a student visa

what if they are studying english in one of those state sponsored institutions?

[KD345]

There's an article in today's Irish Times detailing the timeline. Local authority meetings start next month, public consultations then follow, with the plan finalised by the end of 2017. Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2018.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cons...81356?mode=amp

[dashcamdanny]

Originally Posted by end of the road

this is nothing to do with not having "balls"
this is to do with the fact that these routes serve a social need. the fact the routes that do go through housing estates weren't removed means that it is felt these routes serve a purpose and there is no good reason to remove them from the estates.

I do agree with you here, but is there really a need to put a stop every 100m, less in some of these areas.

The bus picks up very able bodied young people using free travel passes to go 100m up or down the road. Delaying everyone else because they a bone lazy TBH. As you know, this is regular enough. I dont think that having so many stops is a social need...

[murphaph]

The idea of a root and branch review of the network is very welcome indeed. The only thing I would say is that people who find they need to change bus after the review who previously did not have to, should not be financially penalised. This would necessitate a change in the fare structure obviously.

[LuckyLloyd]

Stop frequency can certainly be reviewed. But route coverage is an entirely different matter. Coverage is required in large suburban housing estate areas. Potentially the way to win the war here is buying imp type buses and putting them to work as people carriers from the depths of large estates out to main arteries. In the Ballyfermot / Finglas area I think the portions of the 79 / 40 that would be considered "extraneous" could be served in this fashion.

That's not easy mind. You need to plan in a manner completely different to the way in which the current network operates though and would require integrated ticketing and fare structures that don't currently exist for non Leap Card users (the bulk of the users affected by this particular topic).

But notions of just cutting service like this aren't realistic to be blunt about it.