Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1

Chemical Burn · 05-03-2013 10:02pm #1

SEXISM MEN HAVE EXPERIENCED

Inspired by the thread I saw in the Ladies' Lounge, about Sexism they apparently experience from day to day life, I thought I might start a thread about sexism that us gentlmen experience apart from the others in the LL.
So Gentlemen of GC, what sexism discrimination do you experience?

Please NO AH-type responses or attacking the OP or thread ...

I was told by a driving instructor (back in the day) that I would have a lesser chance of passing the test because of how I looked and because I was a man (instructor was female). This was 11 years ago.

I was in college queuing up to use a photocopyer / printer and it was faulty, and I had to page the maintenance guy. Even though I was first in the queue, he pushed me aside and told me to " let the "ladies" go ahead of me ", when the machine was back up and running again. This was 10 years ago.

MOD NOTE! ** READ THIS **
I'm going to make this completely crystal clear, for the benefit of all.

This is a thread for men to post their experiences of sexism that they believe they have experienced. Discussion in this thread is welcome, from both men and women - so long as it goes with the ethos of the thread. Addition - this thread will also encompass general sexism against men.

The following is no longer to take place in this thread:

- Discussion of which sex has it worse
- Arguing about what is, or isn't sexism in your view

This is the Gentlemen's Club forum. This forum will always have a male leaning ethos. Men do not have to defend their experiences in this thread to anyone.

We will start banning people who continue to derail this thread.

P_1 · 05-03-2013 10:45pm

maybe

Countless examples from working in a shoe shop, to be honest if I were to list the lot of them I'd end up going into a tirade.

Chemical Burn · 05-03-2013 10:48pm

P_1 wrote: »

Countless examples from working in a shoe shop, to be honest if I were to list the lot of them I'd end up going into a tirade.

Try the top three .. just to get the juices flowing

P_1 · 05-03-2013 10:53pm

maybe

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Try the top three .. just to get the juices flowing

Ok so,

1 - Sweltering day so I decide to wear a vest (wifebeater) to work, apparently that looked 'unprofessional' yet female staff were swanning around wearing half nothing.

2 - Apparently just because I'm male I couldn't cash up quickly

3 - Apparently I didn't have a clue about fashion

Chemical Burn · 05-03-2013 10:57pm

P_1 wrote: »

Ok so,

1 - Sweltering day so I decide to wear a vest (wifebeater) to work, apparently that looked 'unprofessional' yet female staff were swanning around wearing half nothing.

2 - Apparently just because I'm male I couldn't cash up quickly

3 - Apparently I didn't have a clue about fashion

Blood pressure rising

Homer Simpson mp4: Urge to Kill, Rising ...

iptba · 06-03-2013 12:35am

(These ones are old - others may come to mind later)

In the late 70s/early 80s, there was a family on our road of three boys and one girl. The three boys got hit with a belt by their father regularly as punishment, but not their sister.

Female friend told me in the early 80s in her school, there was corporal punishment for the boys in her class but not the girls.

donfers · 06-03-2013 12:47am

No

sexism exists, is it always a bad thing and damaging? no

why? because the sexes are different

first we must define it, does it mean treating the sexes differently? well then is that so bad, the sexes are different

the reality is that some people are more programmed to whinge about it than others because they knew their case will be heard more favourably

there are countless examples of sexism every day, I am constantly carrying stuff for women, moving things, doing physical jobs - none of the women call me a sexist for doing so, I just happen to be physically stronger than them

there are cases of what I would describe as damaging or malicious sexism but unfortunately those cases are often drowned out by the whinging victim class who trivialise the issue by claiming that every setback they suffer must be a result of some (more often than not) patriarchal conspiracy

it gets tiring

we must strive to highlight the real stuff, for example father's rights and the disgraceful way women are treated in some countries far far from here and we must weed out and expose the hypocritical garbage

iptba · 06-03-2013 1:23am

there are countless examples of sexism every day, I am constantly carrying stuff for women, moving things, doing physical jobs - none of the women call me a sexist for doing so, I just happen to be physically stronger than them

This reminds me: I've heard people say that in some jobs at the same/similar grade or payscale (or with a similar title anyway), men end up having to do specific types of work where female employees are not expected to do them or won't do. In some instances, this might mean men have to work harder or do more dangerous work. Some people may consider the examples of this as trivial, others may not. As I don't know what happens in reality in lots of different types of workplace (what is shown on TV, for example, may or may not be accurate), I'm interested in hearing such examples. Other people are free to think they are not important if they want.

tsiehta · 06-03-2013 4:07am

donfers wrote: »

sexism exists, is it always a bad thing and damaging? no

why? because the sexes are different

first we must define it, does it mean treating the sexes differently? well then is that so bad, the sexes are different

IMO it's more that people are different, with average differences along gender lines, for largely disputed reasons (inherent biology vs. socialization).

If you're treating the sexes differently based on blanket generalizations/assumptions, without any consideration for an individual's traits, then that is sexism. For example:

donfers wrote: »

there are countless examples of sexism every day, I am constantly carrying stuff for women, moving things, doing physical jobs - none of the women call me a sexist for doing so, I just happen to be physically stronger than them

Carrying things for weaker people is not sexist. Assuming all women are weak, is.

iptba · 06-03-2013 5:23am

(Probably not the most exciting example)
When I stayed at the summer college in the Ring Gaelthacht in Co. Waterford, us boys only got white bread, but the girls were given the (better quality) brown bread.
(They weren't open about this: we only found out by chance as for some reason once we had to go through the girls eating area and all the brown bread was out. There may have been other differences in the food also - it wouldn't have been hard for them to get better food as a lot of what we got seemed to be slop that had been through the system once or twice i.e. leftovers that were all mixed together).

Reku · 06-03-2013 9:52am

How about having a girl hit me and then taunt me that I can't hit her back because she's a girl?

I can also think of a number of examples of women I worked with doing what would be classed as sexual harassment and getting away with it yet us men had no doubts what would end up happening to us were we to do the same/say the same as they had.

Playboy · 06-03-2013 10:56am

No

Constantly get dirty looks from Women on public transport who think its their god given right to a seat in place of a man because they are wearing heels. It doesnt help when some shining knights cave in to ther chivalrous urges as it creates a sense of expectation. I once had a woman pick a dirty newspaper up off the floor and throw it in my face because she "was afraid she would trip on it!" Obviously she was very annoyed that I was happy to let her stand on a busy tube when she clearly wasnt very comfortable. Why are men seemingly expected to put up with discomfort with a smile on our faces so our lovely sisters of the opposite sex relax in comfort? If you aint pregnant, elderly or disabled then the heels are your problem ladies.

cantdecide · 06-03-2013 1:43pm

http://corkindependent.com/20130207/news/girls-weekend-away-S58921.html

Had a right rant about this in AH recently. Reverse the genders and you can be sure it wouldn't have been published...

seenitall · 06-03-2013 5:37pm

cantdecide wrote: »

http://corkindependent.com/20130207/news/girls-weekend-away-S58921.html

Had a right rant about this in AH recently. Reverse the genders and you can be sure it wouldn't have been published...

As I posted in that thread, yes it would have (and it has been), and worse in the example below. If objectification is worse than negative stereotyping (re: the last paragraph).

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/4642/2012-45/No-more-Mr-Nice-Guy

(Apologies gentlemen, I know it's off topic, just thought I'd rectify this particular misconception.)

ZX7R · 06-03-2013 6:05pm

Started a new job recently as a caretaker,i was asked would i clean the toilets today because the cleaners did not turn up,so i said yes no problem and started to clean them, Female manager came in as i was cleaning them and said it would be imposable for me to clean them correctly as i was not a woman.
I think she managed to be sexist to both sex's at the same time with her statement.

ShagNastii · 06-03-2013 6:30pm

I hate cries of sexism, they are often just a whinge for people who need to get over it. Sticks n stones and all that jazz.

That said I didn't half feel hard done by when I was in the bar trade. The poor little females not being able to deal with kegs or deliveries was something that urked me.

Take your equal pay, but only after you haul in those 50 kegs.

The Corinthian · 06-03-2013 6:50pm

donfers wrote: »

there are countless examples of sexism every day, I am constantly carrying stuff for women, moving things, doing physical jobs - none of the women call me a sexist for doing so, I just happen to be physically stronger than them

Are they unable to do so themselves?

A common enough example of sexism is whereby one or more female colleagues will try to get you to do some heavy lifting... because you're a man. I don't mean serious weight, I mean under 10kg that can easily lifted by an adult of either gender.

Just because you're stronger, doesn't mean you should. They're work colleagues, equals and it is their responsibility to do that kind of work just as much as it is yours (more so if what they want you to carry is related to their work). With rights come responsibilities.

Perpetuating such gender stereotypes helps no one. Doesn't help men who ultimately end up becoming work horses in the workplace and it doesn't help women either, who'll quickly end up seen as useless if there is hard work to be done, and thus get sent off on coffee making duty.

donfers · 06-03-2013 8:04pm

No

tsiehta wrote: »

If you're treating the sexes differently based on blanket generalizations/assumptions, without any consideration for an individual's traits, then that is sexism. For example:Carrying things for weaker people is not sexist. Assuming all women are weak, is.

and here we are, just a few posts into this thread and already the strawmen/strawpersons are appearing

i don't assume all women are weak, it just so happens that the vast vast vast majority in my everyday environment are not as physically capable as me - I am sure there are women bodybuilders and athletes and others out there who are stronger than me that I don't run into every day but heh for the sake of brevity I choose not to add them as a little caveat or asterisk to every point I make to satisfy all the pedants out there who tend to present themselves in these types of discussions - i think it's called whataboutery and if debate were to cater for these type of people then debate would never begin

now, as per the examples cited, have you considered that on many occassions it is the woman themselves who perpetuate the "I am weak/you are strong" thing - did that possibility cross your mind? I am certainly not the type who is going around like a white knight offering to help the poor helpless wimmins, I leave them to it most of the time, however on multiple occassions they directly request my help to carry, move, hang, install, attach something even though on the majority of these occassions my suspicion is they are perfectly able to do it themselves.......now what is a man to do in these situations

"No, I am not helping you.....do it yourself" - misognysist pig they'll scream

"Yes, ok then, let me help" - sexist pig they'll scream

The Corinthian · 06-03-2013 8:24pm

Actually, while we're on this nonsensical topic of women being 'weaker'...

... does anyone here know what housework entailed before the advent of indoor plumbing, the washing machine, the electric iron and the dishwasher?

tsiehta · 06-03-2013 9:43pm

donfers wrote: »

and here we are, just a few posts into this thread and already the strawmen/strawpersons are appearing

i don't assume all women are weak, it just so happens that the vast vast vast majority in my everyday environment are not as physically capable as me - I am sure there are women bodybuilders and athletes and others out there who are stronger than me that I don't run into every day but heh for the sake of brevity I choose not to add them as a little caveat or asterisk to every point I make to satisfy all the pedants out there who tend to present themselves in these types of discussions - i think it's called whataboutery and if debate were to cater for these type of people then debate would never begin

now, as per the examples cited, have you considered that on many occassions it is the woman themselves who perpetuate the "I am weak/you are strong" thing - did that possibility cross your mind? I am certainly not the type who is going around like a white knight offering to help the poor helpless wimmins, I leave them to it most of the time, however on multiple occassions they directly request my help to carry, move, hang, install, attach something even though on the majority of these occassions my suspicion is they are perfectly able to do it themselves.......now what is a man to do in these situations

"No, I am not helping you.....do it yourself" - misognysist pig they'll scream

"Yes, ok then, let me help" - sexist pig they'll scream

Well that was a rant and a half.

I didn't call you sexist, or say that you consider all women to be weaker than men, nor did I make any comment on who perpetuates gender stereotypes.

I effectively said that what you were calling sexism in your post was not necessarily sexism. Lifting something for someone weaker than you is not sexism. Expecting not to have to lift anything solely based on your gender is sexism, and assuming that someone is not capable of lifting something based on their gender is also sexism.

As such, I disagree with your assessment of what sexism is, and that it is fine and natural in some cases. Treating people differently because of their gender is sexism. Treating people differently based on individuals' genuine physical differences, which may be correlated on average with their gender, is not sexism. Perhaps you see this as pedantry, but I see it as a crucial distinction.

By the way, while we're talking about strawpersons, I severely doubt that any woman has asked a man to help them lift something and then screamed "sexist pig" at him after he's lifted it for them.

More on topic, I haven't really experienced much notable direct sexism. However, I feel indirect sexism in the form of societal gender policing. What I can wear, how I should behave, what forms of entertainment I can consume, what interests I can have etc.

donfers · 06-03-2013 9:59pm

No

tsiehta wrote: »

Well that was a rant and a half.

I didn't call you sexist, or say that you consider all women to be weaker than men, nor did I make any comment on who perpetuates gender stereotypes.

I effectively said that what you were calling sexism in your post was not necessarily sexism. Lifting something for someone weaker than you is not sexism. Expecting not to have to lift anything solely based on your gender is sexism, and assuming that someone is not capable of lifting something based on their gender is also sexism.

As such, I disagree with your assessment of what sexism is, and that it is fine and natural in some cases. Treating people differently because of their gender is sexism. Treating people differently based on individuals' genuine physical differences, which may be correlated on average with their gender, is not sexism. Perhaps you see this as pedantry, but I see it as a crucial distinction.

By the way, while we're talking about strawpersons, I severely doubt that any woman has asked a man to help them lift something and then screamed "sexist pig" at him after he's lifted it for them.

More on topic, I haven't really experienced much notable direct sexism. However, I feel indirect sexism in the form of societal gender policing. What I can wear, how I should behave, what forms of entertainment I can consume, what interests I can have etc.

fair enough - i do think that the definition of sexism needs to be cleared up though, i don't think an equal number of women would ask a woman who is equally as strong and physicall able as a man to carry/move things

just one clarification i should make

the screaming sexist pig "they" I was referring to would be more the look-for-a-cause anywhere class (even when its not there) rather than the women accepting the help themselves

ElleEm · 06-03-2013 10:26pm

I think you only to ask any unmarried/ separated fathers have they experienced sexism and the answer will be a resounding "yes".

Irish law is so discriminatory against fathers, in that if a child is born to unmarried parents, the mother is the automatic guardian. The father, (named on birth cert or not) is essentially a nobody unless the mother agrees to sign the gaurdianship papers (or he takes her to court). It is truly a disgrace, and scary how little is known about it. I actually don't think I have ever spoken to a unmarried father who has known about this (unless they are going through the process of getting joint guardianship).

Icemancometh · 06-03-2013 10:57pm

No

I answered the phone in work today (as a doctor on a ward in a hospital) by saying the name of the ward, and the hospital. The person at the other end asked to speak to a nurse. I could be a nurse. Disgraceful sexism.

jaffacakesyum · 06-03-2013 11:11pm

Icemancometh wrote: »

I answered the phone in work today (as a doctor on a ward in a hospital) by saying the name of the ward, and the hospital. The person at the other end asked to speak to a nurse. I could be a nurse. Disgraceful sexism.

Not going to post too often in this thread as I don't want to step on people's toes, as a female. However, I've worked in hospitals before and have answered many a phone at the nurses station despite not being a nurse (:mad:) and the majority of the time the first thing people will ask is to speak to a nurse even though I'm female. And rightly so. You need to make sure you're talking to the right person there, doesn't matter if it's male or female who answers the phone you need to make it clear you want to speak to the nurse or the doctor or the psychologist or whoever. So in my opinion, that's not sexism at all.

Icemancometh · 06-03-2013 11:13pm

No

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Not going to post too often in this thread as I don't want to step on people's toes, as a female. However, I've worked in hospitals before and have answered many a phone at the nurses station despite not being a nurse (:mad:) and the majority of the time the first thing people will ask is to speak to a nurse even though I'm female. And rightly so. You need to make sure you're talking to the right person there, doesn't matter if it's male or female who answers the phone you need to make it clear you want to speak to the nurse or the doctor or the psychologist or whoever. So in my opinion, that's not sexism at all.

That's fair enough, actually. It was an internal call, so they probably knew that all the nurses on that ward were female anyway. As it happens, I was probably in the best position to help with the query.

MagicMarker · 06-03-2013 11:22pm

Mainly just being asked to carry shít.

One time two girls called our office to ask a couple of lads to walk over to their office (another building) to move some furniture around. Turned out to be just a few draws, could have easily done it themselves.

Another time, one of the girls asked us to carry some boxes of paper down stairs. Literally boxes of paper from the top floor to the ground floor. They weren't heavy, there were just a lot of them. She, and all the other women in the office, sat on their arses while the only 4 men in the office did the physical work.

Morag · 06-03-2013 11:58pm

I've seen it in playgrounds over the years, not so much recently but mutterings of "what he doing talk to that child' that child was his own he had brought to the play ground.
Or Dad's pushing thier own on the swing and the child sitting besides asks for a push and the Dad being wary of doing so.

kjl · 07-03-2013 12:11am

two words - car insurance.

clairefontaine · 07-03-2013 12:11am

Morag wrote: »

I've seen it in playgrounds over the years, not so much recently but mutterings of "what he doing talk to that child' that child was his own he had brought to the play ground.
Or Dad's pushing thier own on the swing and the child sitting besides asks for a push and the Dad being wary of doing so.

I am female and I would never touch another person's child or push them on a swing. That is appropriate behaviour not specified to either gender.

P_1 · 07-03-2013 12:13am

maybe

clairefontaine wrote: »

I am female and I would never touch another person's child or push them on a swing. That is appropriate behaviour not specified to either gender.

Ok I think not pushing a child on a swing if the child asks for a push while you're pushing your own child right beside them is a tad OTT.

clairefontaine · 07-03-2013 12:18am

P_1 wrote: »

Ok I think not pushing a child on a swing if the child asks for a push while you're pushing your own child right beside them is a tad OTT.

You may think it's OTT but I think it's bad manners. Some parents really don't want you doing that. I'd tell them to wait for their mammy or daddy.

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